More about combining supplements

I know some supplements are to be taken with food and some without. I'm wondering if I'm taking the right supplements together, or if it matters. Obviously, the most important thing is that they are getting absorbed properly.

The supplements I take without food, but at the same time are:

Nattokinase (3 x day)
Taurine (2 x day) (I know there is different opinions about taking this with food, but these say between meals)
Hydrolyzed Collagen (2 x day) (for joints)

I always take the above 1 hour before and 2 hours after eating.

I take the following with food, at the same time:

Fish Oil (3 x day)
CoQ10 (1 x day)
D3 (3 x day)
Phyto Wheat (for dry skin) (1 x day)
Magnesium (3 x day)
HRT (1 x day)

I would hate to think any of these are ineffective because I am not taking them properly! Any advice is welcome! Thank you all.

Louise

Hi Louise,
You dry skin could very well be from hypothyroidism even if not low enough to trigger alarm bells in your EP or and Endocrinologists office.

even starting with Iodine repletion starting with half a tablet of Ioderol that you can buy directly through our IHerb link, that might help over time support your thyroid somewhat.

Iodoral 12.5mg tablets

Work you way up by and extra half tablet every 5 to 7 days until you get to two full tablets a day and continue on that for 3 to four months after which you can usually reduce the dose to around 1 tablet a day for maintenance but many do best staying with one and a half to two full tablets a day longer term too. You just have to see.

The reason for the slow ramp up is that Iodoral can displace toxic levels of Halides like Bromine that very commonly bind more tightly to your cellular T3 hormone receptor sites on every cell in the body and thus prevent the normal bioactive thyroid hormone from binding to many cells in the body. HT causes a kind of toxin endured functional hypothyroidism where the system is not calling for more thyroid hormone necessarily as it is fooled into thinking it has enough do to the close similarity in the Bromine molecule to T3 itself and thus the there is not much production of TSH from the pituitary gland as would normally happen in classic untreated hypothyroidism

As such, your TSH test ( which is a very misleading single marker for thyroid function to use anyway) can look more or less within the board reference range while you are limping along being powered more by this pseudo thyroid mimic-looking bromine molecules binding to the T3 receptors.

IF you suddenly start bombing away with a large dose of iodine, you can too quickly dislodge the bromine causing a significant Herxheimer reaction which is a detox reaction that is no fun at all. So just go slow and gradually ramp the Iodoral dose up to around 25mg dose a day for some several months even up to y months is fine for many and some need to stay at that dose indefinitely to feel better and have better energy.

T3 energy is far better feeling than with too much Bromine driving the T3 cells.

But you should set up with a good functional medicine or BHRT ( bio-identical hormone replacement therapy) Fellowship certified MD to review all of your metabolic issues and help sort them out Louise. Not only will that help contribute toward a quieter hear whether or not you have and an ablation yet, but will help many other aspects of your health as well.

Shannon

Louise:

I know that Shannon is the expert here-----but for what it is worth, I took 1 tab. of Iodoral for quite a few years then I started to get hives on my face and stopped the Iodoral, the hives then went away, I don't know how old you are or how sensitive you are to drugs/supplements but I certainly wouldn't take more than 1 tab./day. I see a holistic doctor (Dr. Brownstein) and he had put me on 1 tab., There was a lady at Dr. Brownsteins office that told me she couldn't take Iodoral but could take Lugols Iodine solution. Anyway, Iodoral does help your thyroid, only be careful and watchful.

Liz

Shannon YOU ARE PSYCHIC! I realized after I posted (and left the house so I couldn't edit) that I forgot to say that I JUST STARTED taking Iodoral last week Thursday after reading many, many posts and links to Dr. Brownstein. This is because I also have cold hands and feet and I haven't had to shave my legs for years and just learned that all these things together could be thyroid issues. I did just have a blood test and the TSH was 4.37, which actually looks good, but I checked previous tests that were in the 2+ range and also learned that the test could be skewed by fasting for the cholesterol test. By the way, Elizabeth, I will be 65 in June.

I did take one tablet the first day and didn't sleep well (I usually sleep 8-9 hours without any aids). So I've started taking 1/2 tab a day. I'm so glad to see your post and explanation. Elizabeth, I'm not very sensitive to any supplements or drugs and don't have any allergies (except to nectarines and raw almonds -- severe stomach pain -- go figure).

Neither one of you commented on the combination of supplements I take together, so I guess they're fine. I am taking the Iodoral with food at the same time as the other supplements.

I have searched for a FM MD in my area and came up blank. Also, I will be going on Medicare soon and don't know how many non-traditional physicians take that. Will look into that later.

My PP finally gave me a referral to an EP (at my request) instead of a cardiologist, so I will be seeing him soon. I am very afraid (yes, intimidated) to tell him what supplements I am on and that I am NOT taking Pradaxa any more. My PP was NOT pleased. I see in my records it still says I am, so maybe I won't tell him. I have had very bad "ego" responses to making any decisions based on my own research. We'll see.

Thank you both and I will see how the iodine effects me!

Louise

Louise:

Did you have your free T4 and free T3 run as well, those tell a better story than the TSH, but looking at your TSH, I would say it is on the higher side, you probably are hypo. I had my thyroid nuked in 1993 (I had Graves disease) I do take Synthroid and feel good when my TSH is between 1 and 2.

I would take the iodoral (1/2 tab. for a while), unless it bothers you, it should help with your thyroid, then you can take 1 tablet (12.5mg.) . I am just saying that 2 tabs or more are a lot of iodine, I am older than you are and I find that I am more sensitive to supplements and drugs more now then before.

Holistic doctors do not take health insurance, at least Dr. Brownstein doesn't, the initial first visit was expensive, but now the visits are reasonable, my insurance pays for blood work, I have medicare and Blue Cross.

Hi Louise and Liz,

Yes Liz story can indeed happen , though thankfully that manifestation is rather rare, but it's why I said to make sure and start at just a half tablets and go slow.. Like Liz said even slower and longer at the half tablet dose if you get anything like such a reaction. What Liz experience could either be a herxheimer reaction from detoxing bromine cellular binding, or an allergic reaction to a filler or the coating used in the Iodoral tablets.

Liz if you are in an adventurous mood you could try like a half drop of Lugols and see if a similar reaction happens? If it doesn't then, it's almost certainly an allergy not to iodine itself which would be highly unusual, but to a filler or the tablet coating. The makers of Natur-Throid also make a capsule form of the Iodoral/Lugols formula so maybe that could work for you, or just stick with good Ole Lugols drops( just don't get any on your clothes or carpet as the stain won't come out easily at all!

But if you do have a similar rection to both Iodoral and Lugols then it's highly likely a herxhiemer detox reaction to a toxic burden of bromine or another halide and that would be good to know and possible do a much slower and lower dose detox protocol for better overall health? Anyway, just an idea.

Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2014 01:25AM by Shannon.

Shannon:

I did try the Lugols solution, I haven't taken it everyday however, I was ok with it, no hives,. I took Iodorol for about 4 years and was fine, I then started getting the hives, I took it everyday for all those years perhaps it was finally just too much, I should have been detoxed at the beginning of my taking the Iodorol, who knows, maybe I am a slow detoxser, just a joke Shannon.

LIz

Yeah Liz sounds more like you probably developed a sensitivity to something in the Iodoral tablet preparation over time. It can happen, obviously ...

Take care,
Shannon

Thank you both. No, Liz, actually T3 and T4 are not shown on my lab report. I will continue with 1/2 tab for awhile and see if there are any changes and the next time I have blood tests will specifically ask for T3 and T4.

Louise

Louise, when you talk to your doc politely but strongly insist on getting the Free T3 and Free T4 thryiod hormone tests along with the TSH. Those first two are most important. You should have at least one screening TPO antibody and Thyro-Globulin antibody test as well to rule in or out Hashimotos autoimmune thyroiditis.

You can have him include total T3 and total T4 as well for the complete picture but these are definitely secondary and less useful than FT3 and FT4 which shows the actual cellularly available amounts of T3 and T4 there is in the blood. Thus the total T3 &T4 readings are optional if you get FT3 and FT4... Right away you will know if you doc really understands thyroid function by whether asks for just the total T3 & T4 levels are if he is most interested I seeing your Free T3 and Free T4 which tells the real story most a accurately as far as blood testing goes ... Actually FT3 and FT4 in 24 hour urine is the good standard test for really confirming thryroid status along with an expert clinical exam.

Finally if and when you are out on any thyroid hormone formula that contains T4 like Synthroid or desiccated thyroid formulas like Armour or ERFA thyroid , be sure to include periodic Reverse T3 testing starting about 6 months after starting thyroid hormone replacement therapy to insure your FT3 to RT3 ratio does not get too low. Any such ratio below 20 is too low and means too much RT3 is binding to receptors and blocking too much of your FT3 in the blood from binding , so you can have perfectly normal looking blood tests but still have hypothyroid signs and symptoms.

Finally any doc that only orders a TSH test, thank them politely for their service and run for the hills! That is proof positive that you are in dangerous hands when it comes to a thyroid competent doc. Alas, the majority of GPs and even some old timer Endocrinologists still fall into this category of 'TSH is everything' ignorance.

Shannon

Thank you, Shannon, as always, for your detailed response. I will "study" Free T3 and Free T4 to understand more about total thyroid function. I must admit I am very intimidated by doctors and when they ask why I request tests or more information, they are usually insulted that I learned something online that they haven't mentioned to me! I will try to educate myself properly so I know what I'm talking about when I ask!

My symptoms of hypothyroidism are very dry skin, coldness and loss of hair on my legs and under my arms. On the other hand, one of the symptoms is a slow heart rate, and, maybe because of the afib, my heart rate is usually in the high 70's to low 100's. Of course, maybe thyroid issues caused the afib. Before the afib my heart rate was always low, but I was an aerobic exerciser/runner and cannot do those things now because my heart rate will go too high! Ahhh, the vicious circle.

Louise

Next time your Doc asks why you want Free T3 and Free T4 tell him that Free T3 is the final form of the active thyroid hormone that can actually bind to cells and cause actual thyroid function in the body. Total T3 doesn't not always track perfectly with Free T3, and the same goes with Total T4 and Free T4. While T4 is only a storage form of the thyroid hormone and has to be converted by enzymatic action into total T3 and then to Free T3 to have any action in the body, it is important to know in ratio to Free T3 to help point to the type or contributing factors to your hypothyroidism or hyperthyroidism.

For instance, having a low normal to borderline low or even frankly low Free T4 along with a Normal to borderline high or slightly high Free T3 is called "Low T4 syndrome" and almost invariably points to an underlying adrenal dysfunction that is, in part, driving the thyroid dysfunction as both adrenal and thyroid function are closely associated.

Also if he turns his nose up at 'internet knowledge' tell him that the internet is filled with both junk and poorly informed communicators as well as highly educated and very well informed communicators sharing a wealth of cutting-edge top tier knowledge ... just like in his field of medicine.

Shannon

Taking Amiodarone was the start of my Hypothyrionism, although I couldn't tell that I had it, as I didn't gain weight, and I was already tired from my auto immune disease.....I've been taking Levothyroxine 75mcg every morning, 30 minutes before food, as perscribed by my Dr..everything has been running smooth.(about 5 years) He keeps my T3, T4 and Tsh checked..
Take care...Nel

Hi Nel,

About 25% of people do reasonably well on Levo or Synthroid which us synthetic T4 only, but rarely are they really well from a thyroid point of view, but some, such as yourself, manage pretty well on it and its often those with less pronounced and more minor hypo as your modest 75mg dose implies. While adding FT3 and FT4 to the T4, T3 and TSH would given ore insight into your thyroid status, the fact that you doc is not just testing TSH alone is a good sign. Hopefully he is going mostly by and expert clinical exam as well and not just relying on blood tests alone to determine your dose?

If you are comfortable on Levo and don't free like it has hit a wall or plateau then that's fine and perhaps you are among the lucky upper qusrtile for whom it remains a reasonable solution for some time even a good number of years in some cases. Most often though people tend to hit a ceiling fairly soon on it and never wuiet feel right energy wise and in symptom reduction ... The way it's often discribed by those who took synthetic T4 alone for a long time was that at first there was an improvement feeling kind if like moving from the basement to the fifth floor where the view and vista were better and more engaging, but often times at a certain point they start to slide back toward the basement again or fluctuate too much and only after getting dialed in with a better blend of T4 and T3 hormones did they realize there was really closer to 59 stories to this building rather than only 5 which had seemed like a decent improvement initially when that seemed to be as much as they had remembered feeling from before being dismissed as hypo.

But some others do quite well on it so there is no reason to switch unless at some point more symptoms return. If that happens ever first ask for a Reverse T3 test and make adjustments accordingly to your Levo dose, but right now you sound good to go with your current program.

Take care Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2014 09:47AM by Shannon.

Louise - if you increase the Omega 3 intake to at least 4 grams a day, your dry skin should resolve and you'll also have the highly desirable anti-inflammatory benefits as well.

It's easiest to use one of the liquid quality products such as Nordic Naturals, Carlson's or Natural Factor's RX Omega 3's.. that are molecularly distilled. I have no way of knowing what 3 per days means in terms of dosing amounts.

Jackie

Thank you, Jackie. My initial question was about taking the supplements together, so I did not state dosages. I am currently taking 1000 mg fish oil 3 x daily. I have been considering upping it to 4 anyway to further increase the "slippery" platelet effect, since I take Nattokinase 3 x daily as well, but no anticoagulant.

Louise

Here's a link to a review of some different natural thyroid medications containing both T3 and T4. I've been taking Naturethroid for several years. Some physicians believe that some T4 turns into T3 but my doc wants me to get more T3 alone.

BTW, he agrees with Shannon about Levo.

My thyroid problems, too, were started by being on Amiodarone for too long. The iodine sent me into a hyper mode which then went to a hypo mode after quitting the Amiodarone for a few months and it has now stabilized with a TSH between 1.0 and 2.0, which is where my free T3 and T4 are kept in good ranges.

A hand sugeon who is a musician and treats lots of RSI injuries claims that the best results for people with RSI are when their TSH is between 1.0 and 2.0, compared to the "normal" range of 0.3 to 3.6.

[www.stopthethyroidmadness.com]

Gordon

Louise:

Just to give another side, I have been on synthroid since 1993, I do quite well on it, my holistic doctor checks all of my thyroid vitals and they are just fine. I recall when I used to go to the thyroid board where some of the people did try Armour, some do well on it and some did not, those that did not experienced a fast heartrate and palpations. With my AF I would not try Armour, it also is harder to control, that is why most doctors don't want to work with it. Also, since armour comes from pigs ,they have a higher T3 than we do, that is probably why sometimes it can cause palps in humans.

Liz

Thank you, Liz. You are all so intelligent and educated about all this -- I need to re-read all the posts and then research most of the terms! I appreciate you sharing what you have learned and experienced!

Louise