Sudden intolerance of magnesium and potassium

I would be interested in thoughts and ideas as to why I seem suddenly to have developed an intolerance to the level of magnesium and potassium I had got to and sustained for nearly a year.

It has taken me about 4 years to build up to my body being able to hold onto 1000 mg Albion chelated Blue Bonnet magnesium glycinate and 1500 gm of Now potassium gluconate in divided doses, taken daily, with each meal. Once I had healed up gut issues and added probiotics and digestive enzymes I seemed to be able to tolerate both mg and k in greater doses. I had been on this regime quite happily for most of the last year, when suddenly I have am just losing everything with constant diarrhea.

I have had a test done to rule out any bowel infections such a giaridia, salmonella, e coli etc, and they all came back normal.

Nothing else has changed in my diet or with my other supplements or exercise. The only thing that may be related is that I have had a small weight loss from 140 lbs down to 132 lbs. I am 5' 9' so have a small frame and am slightly underweight currently. Would this cause such a dramatic rejection of mg and K ?

I have tried stopping both mg and k and things were more normal, so my question is, in building up again, which is the most important supp to get right first. I know holding onto k is only possible if the mg level is high enough.

I have also had my worst week of AF during this time of having such an upset system whereas the preceding few months when my mg and k consumption were at their highest were some of my best so I am nervous about stopping both cold turkey and starting again.

Should I just tolerate the bowel intolerance or is the attendant loss of electrolytes doing more harm than good. I seem to remember Erling quoting a doctor who has cured himself if diabetic neuropathy by high doses of mg beyond bowel tolerance and living with the consequences for the 2 years it took, but possibly the issues around electrolyte balance were not so critical for him.

All thoughts and insights appreciated,

Justine

Hi Justine, congratulations!

-- Having reached "bowel tolerance" with magnesium possibly (probably?) means intracellular magnesium is now optimal..
-- Intracellular magnesium being optimal might (does?) cause higher intracellular potassium via increased 'activity' of sodium / potassium pumps.
-- Increased intracellular potassium might be (is?) pro-arrhythmic.
-- "1500 gm of Now potassium gluconate" is a typo, of course. 1,500,000 mg would be a bit much!
-- A good idea would be to back off on the Albion chelated Blue Bonnet magnesium glycinate and watch for improvement.
-- A best idea is to drink 2 liters alkaline WW per day supplying 250 mg ionized magnesium (Mg++), and reduce the Mg glycinate by at least that amount.
-- The advantage is reduced heart cell acidity (all cells, of course). For details see [www.afibbers.org]

You may call me Alky -

Best to you!

Erling

justine
04/16/2012 09:34PM
Dear Alky aka Erling,

Thank you for this wonderfully encouraging reply. Yes, that makes sense that I could have reached optimal magnesium. I am greatly relieved that something so bothersome is actually possibly more a cause for celebration !

So, to follow up on your good advice - I am in New Zealand and we cannot buy milk of magnesia here. I think it has been replaced by mylanta. Would that work to make WW with or Is there some other way I can derive similar alkalizing benefit other than WW? I have got some mg cl which I apply topically when in AF to speed conversion to NSR. As this by-passes the gut, would that be a more useful way of absorbing mg than taking it orally as supplements.

Second question, is; while reducing the Blue Bonnet mg, do I carry on with the 1500 mg ( yes, not gms !!! ) per day or reduce that too if it is potentially pro-arrhytmic at that amount with now apparently optimal intracellular mg?

Hanging on your every word........many thanks Erling,

Justine

Justine,

You may be interested in this Conference Room discussion regarding magnesium supplementation. [www.afibbers.org]

Hans

Justine,

I believe you can get powdered magnesuim hydroxide at the chemists to make the WW. Erling recently addressed this in another thread

"a doctor who has cured himself if diabetic neuropathy by high doses of mg beyond bowel tolerance and living with the consequences for the 2 years it took, but possibly the issues around electrolyte balance were not so critical for him. "

That would be Herbert C. Mansmann MD. I've posted his story in here a search on his last name should pull it up.

I read a paper that indicated that even above bowel tolerance, one aborbs a small percentage of the amount above. Something like 10 or 20%. I tend to keep myself near bowel tolerance and have never felt it hurt my electrolyte balance to be in the loose stool mode. My bowel tolerence can swing widely based upon hard exercise, severe emotional upset, antibiotic use & etc.

George

<[www.afibbers.org];

*Alternatively use 3,600 mg Mg hydroxide powder (pharmaceutical grade) a bit less than 1 tsp (1 tsp = ~4,100 mg).

<[www.afibbers.org];

Thank you Hans and George for your insights.

Do you think I could use Mylanta instead of MoM to make WW - ingredients as follows:

Tablet: aluminium hydroxide dried 200mg, magnesium hydroxide 200mg, simethicone 20mg.

Suspension - aluminium hydroxide dried 400mg/10ml, magnesium hydroxide 400mg/10ml, simethicone 40mg/10ml.

Justine,

I would not willingly ingest anything with aluminum in it.

[www.yourhealthbase.com]

Hans

Good thought Hans. I will try to source magnesium hydroxide here in NZ then.

One further thought re WW - can any one explain to me the benefit of WW over using mg cl transdernally and by-passing the gut and related issues.

Justine,

No reason not to do both, in my opinion. The only reason I don't regularly do transdermal is the hassle factor. I orally ingest both WW concentrate and MgCl2 water (along with mag glycinate and dimagnesium malate).

George

Hi Justine,

No doubt your issue is likely due to getting more then enough IC Mag now and the suggestions of Erling and GeorgeN are the best place to start.

With your mention of weight loss too, its good to be aware that if .. and only if ... after you have adjusted your Mag levels and you are still getting bowel intolerance, then consider the possibility of too much cellular T3 thyroid hormone action as a possible source of your loose stool issue as well as the weight loss, not to mention increased trouble with AFIB.

Its even possible that with the added minerals and nutrients on board you might have enhanced your conversion of T4 ( the inactive storage form of thyroid hormone) to the active T3 hormone which would be beneficial for someone with a tendency toward low thyroid function previously, but if you are one of those who tend to run a borderline high T3 normally, even in the presence of 'normal' to low T4 and 'normal' to high TSH? In such a case, a suddenly enhanced conversion of T4 into T3 might push you into too much T3 at the cellular level and hence the symptoms you describe.

Again, this is not the first option to rule out, but is worth considering and investigating only if the Magnesium re-balancing fails to stop the loose stool and general intolerance you mentioned as well as the weight loss etc.

This scenario, in which a person may have shifted to borderline high or even to frankly too high Free T3 levels in serum or, better yet, measured via 24 hour urine testing, while at the same time their Free T4 is normal or low and TSH is normal or too high even, this is a common manifestation of underlying adrenal insufficiency/cortisol deficiency.

Its common that you can also get a too rapid conversion of T4 to T3 from too low cortisol. If you stick your hands straight out from your shoulder now but in a relaxed way without straining, do you notice any fine tremor in your fingers?? Also try taking your temperature with either a good glass mercury thermometer or a basal digital thermometer ( with fresh batteries) and take your temp 3 times a day starting 3 hours after waking then again 3 hours after that and finally 3 more hours after the last temp reading. For example, if you wake at 6am then test temp at 9am, 12noon and 3pm and then take the sum of all three readings and divide by 3 to get your 'daily average' temperature. Note: using a glass mercury thermometer leave it in your mouth at least 7 minutes and for a Basal digital thermometer leave it under the tongue for at least 3 minutes and don't take it out when the little tone starts beeping in 30 seconds or so, that is not enough time for getting a reliable temperature for our purposes.

Do this for 5 to 7 consecutive days if you can (using your Cell-phone alarm feature to remind you when to take temps), and plot the daily average results. You want to get as close to 98.6 without being too far under or over that number. If you aer running consistently 99 F or higher you may well be producing too much T3 at cellular level where the rubber meets the road and this can be a transient thing that would not necessarily be caught on a standard thyroid screening or blood test at your Docs office.

Also, if you get a maximum variation of more than 0.2 degrees F or 0.3 degrees F in daily average temp from one day to the next, that is a very strong indication of adrenal insufficiency and low cortisol output.

Low cortisol output also invariably leads to frequent bursts of adrenaline as the body falls back on its secondary stress hormone, or in this case 'fight or flight' hormone adrenaline when it can't produce enough cortisol to handle one's physiological and psychological stresses of the moment. And its well known that excess adrenaline is a major trigger for AFIB as well.

My sense is that a huge percentage of Afibbers have some degree of adrenal malfunction and this often goes hand in hand with malfunctioning thyroid performance as well, both on the high end and low end of the spectrum. And this is true regardless of how often a regular doc might have reassured you your thyroid and adrenals are within 'lab normal' range.

Anyway, its food for thought and something to consider should the more obvious and likely issue with just having more than enough IC mag on board proves not to be the whole story for you.

Cheers!
Shannon

Justine, you have to be careful with the Potassium, if you get a Cardymeter you will know exactly where your levels are at any given time, then take the Mag. until you reach bowel intolerance.

Hi again, Justine -- continuing for full understanding, the following might be a bit repetitious. By the way, George quoted Dr. Herbert Mansmann using massive doses of magnesium at [www.afibbers.org] We can obviously be very different in magnesium handling.

-- No, Mylanta can't be used, as Hans indicated, partly because of it's high amount of toxic aluminum.

-- Again, use 3,600 mg magnesium hydroxide powder instead of 3 tbsp milk of magnesia. MoM is a water slurry of magnesium hydroxide powder. Use a bit less than 1 teaspoon powder per 1 liter carbonated water. See complete instructions at [www.afibbers.org]. Mg hydroxide powder is available from compounding pharmacies, also from suppliers such as Brenntag Specialties where one can order a sample (?) [www.brenntagspecialties.com]

-- For important WW background please see From UW to WW with love [www.afibbers.org] Begin with Non Pharmaceutical Health Care and Unique Water (2001) [web.archive.org] and follow the many links such as FAQ, also the following:
Non Pharmaceutical Health Care and Ideal Preventive Medicine [web.archive.org]
How best to consume Unique Water [web.archive.org]

-- More information at Summary of medical research reports to date [www.waterclinicaltrials.info]
On the limited evidence available to date, optimal consumption of drinking water appears to be six to eight glasses (1.5 to 2 liters) of water per day. Optimal magnesium intake and calcium intake from drinking water appears to be the amount sufficient to stabilize parathyroid hormone (PTH) concentrations in the body. Optimal bicarbonate intake from drinking water appears to be the amount sufficient to assist in acid-base balance (as determined by urinary pH values) and the amount sufficient to stabilize biochemical bone resorption indices.

Though opinions vary enormously, general literature consensus is that drinking water should contain in excess of either 25mg per liter magnesium or 50mg per liter calcium and should contain in excess of 200mg per liter bicarbonate. Some medical specialists, particularly European endocrinologists, advocate higher concentrations of calcium and bicarbonate in drinking water to prevent osteoporosis - up to five times the minimum concentrations above.

-- [www.waterclinicaltrials.info]
A Double-blind, Placebo-controlled Study of the Effects of Alkaline Magnesium Bicarbonate Solutions on Acid/Base Balance, Bone Metabolism and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Postmenopausal Women
R.O. Day, W.Liauw, L.M.R Tozer, P McElduff, R.J. Beckett, K.M.Williams.

-- Magnesium bicarbonate water clinical trial video [www.youtube.com]

Best to you!

Erling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2012 12:31PM by Erling.

Thanks Erling for summing up the WW advice. That is indeed very helpful as there are a lot of variables in this AF equation.

Thanks for your thoughts too Tom re the cardymeter. They are prohibitively expensive here so I am reliant on blood tests and as my doctor doesn't think taking k or mg make will be making any difference to my AF, I can't get more than 2 or 3 done a year so I am a bit stranded there.

And Shannon, that is such a comprehensive post and than you very much for your time and valuable insights about the thyroid. I have long suspected there was some involvement as all my measurements are always low and slow from HR to blood pressure to temperature. Thyroid function is one thing my doctor will measure for, but the tests have never picked anything up. However, I will bookmark this thread so all the advice I can refer back to if the temperature taking comes up with anything useful.

Since my original post 4 days ago, I have reduced my daily mg from 1000mg to 600mg and my k from 1500 mg to 500mg and my system is now back to normal, which would indicate that I guess I had reached optimal intracellular magnesium a few weeks ago when it all went haywire. I know from using Fitday that I eat between 600 - 900 mg a day of magnesium, which means that it has taken me around 6 years of ingesting 1000mg+ a day of mg though both food and supplements, to reach this point if indeed I have now normalized my intracellular mg level. Not a quick fix then and it has only been in the last year that I have also been able to hold onto potassium so, as the shampoo add says, it won't happen overnight but it will happen.

I am now going to try to build my k levels back up to 1500mg a day as Fitday also indicates that is the gap between my diet and daily needs so I will be interested to see if that is do-able with the reduced intake of mg.

Thank you for your help and interest and I will keep you posted.

Justine