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Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals

Posted by Brian_og 
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Brian_og
Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 05, 2021 01:22PM
Interesting study relating AFib events in paroxysmal individuals to stroke. Pretty much nails down that AFib is a cause of stroke as well as a marker. Also a discussion of pill in the pocket as a method for anticoagulation since the risk seems to attenuate quickly some days after the event.

[www.tctmd.com]
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colindo
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 06, 2021 04:16PM
Quote
Brian_og
Interesting study relating AFib events in paroxysmal individuals to stroke. Pretty much nails down that AFib is a cause of stroke as well as a marker. Also a discussion of pill in the pocket as a method for anticoagulation since the risk seems to attenuate quickly some days after the event.

Nattokinase should be considered and trialled.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

The effects of NK are similar to the well-known blood thinner, aspirin [13]. Unlike aspirin, which often triggers bleeding or gastric ulcers, NK improves blood flow without any adverse effects.
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GeorgeN
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 06, 2021 04:52PM
If I had more than a minimal (<=2) CHA₂DS₂-VASc, I personally would not rely on NK. Aspirin is not a preferred choice for afib either. Not that I think NK is bad, I just would not rely on it. I recall a number of years ago, when Shannon had a TIA, he was on 300 mg /day in three 100mg divided doses.
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colindo
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 06, 2021 06:34PM
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GeorgeN
If I had more than a minimal (<=2) CHA₂DS₂-VASc, I personally would not rely on NK. Aspirin is not a preferred choice for afib either. Not that I think NK is bad, I just would not rely on it. I recall a number of years ago, when Shannon had a TIA, he was on 300 mg /day in three 100mg divided doses.

I wonder under the circumstance if Shannon would have had a TIA no mater what anti-coagulate he used?
I would like to know what the Romanian lady was taking, if anything?

I have never seen any comparisons between nattokinase and other anti-coagulates.
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Carey
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 06, 2021 08:48PM
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colindo
I wonder under the circumstance if Shannon would have had a TIA no mater what anti-coagulate he used?
I would like to know what the Romanian lady was taking, if anything?

I have never seen any comparisons between nattokinase and other anti-coagulates.

I think it's likely he would not have suffered the TIA. Hindsight, of course, and impossible to know for sure, but the effectiveness of the anticoagulants is known and quite high.

As for the comparisons, yeah, that's the big problem. There are no good comparisons between nattokinase and other anticoagulants, so we just can't know how effective it actually is. Show me a couple of large, well designed, randomly controlled trials comparing nattokinase to Eliquis that show it's at least non-inferior, and I would be willing to pay almost as much for it if it was in proven dosage and purity of formulation. Get FDA approval on it and insurance coverage, and I'd be willing to pay equally as much.
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Elizabeth
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 06, 2021 09:51PM
I remember years ago Jackie was on nattokinase and she had a T and was found to have a blood clot, she was ok. Perhaps she will see this and post about it.
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colindo
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 07, 2021 02:07AM
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Carey

I wonder under the circumstance if Shannon would have had a TIA no mater what anti-coagulate he used?
I would like to know what the Romanian lady was taking, if anything?

I have never seen any comparisons between nattokinase and other anti-coagulates.

I think it's likely he would not have suffered the TIA. Hindsight, of course, and impossible to know for sure, but the effectiveness of the anticoagulants is known and quite high.

As for the comparisons, yeah, that's the big problem. There are no good comparisons between nattokinase and other anticoagulants, so we just can't know how effective it actually is. Show me a couple of large, well designed, randomly controlled trials comparing nattokinase to Eliquis that show it's at least non-inferior, and I would be willing to pay almost as much for it if it was in proven dosage and purity of formulation. Get FDA approval on it and insurance coverage, and I'd be willing to pay equally as much.

Just to turn things around a bit, You seem to be inferring that nattokinase is inferior to Eliquis, that may be so but where is the proof, who can say for sure? can you?
BTW nattokinase is offered to passengers on long distance air travel from Japan.
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GeorgeN
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 07, 2021 06:40AM
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colindo
Just to turn things around a bit, You seem to be inferring that nattokinase is inferior to Eliquis, that may be so but where is the proof, who can say for sure? can you?

The problem isn't that we know nattokinase is inferior to the prescribed anticoagulants, the problem is that we don't know. We know the efficacy of the prescribed meds and risking a stroke when you don't know is a big risk.
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Jackie
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 07, 2021 12:43PM
Hi Liz - good memory! My clot incident came after my first ablation and I had a breakthrough arrhythmia.
Prior to my first ablation, I had taken only NK since I didn't tolerate warfarin and that's all there was back then.

There are several past posts relating to my "Clot in my heart" story...

The AF forum archives have my story about having a clot in my heart after cardioversion and I didn’t learn about it until prox 6 weeks after the fact. This was back when warfarin was used with Afbbers. I had used nattokinase prior to my first ablation (2003) since it was difficult to manage warfarin with my low platelet count and fortunately was back on the NK once I stopped the warfarin post-ablation, so I have significant confidence for the efficacy of using nattokinase.

There are numerous contributors to inflammatory conditions that help promote the risk of forming a clot.

A lengthy post in the General Health Forum is on Silent Inflammation - Risk Marker for Stroke, Heart Attack & Much More
[www.afibbers.org]

And this link for more current info on the NK topic
[www.afibbers.org]

[www.afibbers.org]


Jackie
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colindo
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 07, 2021 12:52PM
If you read Brian_og article they were suggesting a different approach for paroxysmal afibbers with a CHA₂DS₂-VASc score of 3.
One of the suggestions was a pill in pocket approach and my suggestion was to trial Nattokinase.
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Carey
Re: Study on AFib as a cause of stroke in paroxysmal individuals
October 07, 2021 06:13PM
Quote
colindo
Just to turn things around a bit, You seem to be inferring that nattokinase is inferior to Eliquis, that may be so but where is the proof, who can say for sure? can you?

No, I don't know that nattokinase is inferior. I also don't know that it's superior. That's because it's never been subjected to clinical trials comparing them, so we really don't know much about it at all. (That's what my post was about.) But I do know exactly how effective Eliquis and the other anticoagulants are, and for a clot to form in the left atrium while taking one of them would be very unlikely.
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