Tried flecainide again and.....

bubkis.

I know it's best used right after you pop out of NSR but since I was on MulTaq I needed that to clear and I needed to eliminate two more possible suspects - vitamin K complex and MSG (an ingredient in Aromat - a meat spice concoction that finally made my steaks taste good).

That's 2 attempts at PIP, one with met suc and this time with diltiazem... not a thing.

Headed to Austin in a month.

Metoprolol and diltiazem aren't antiarrhythmics, so it's no surprise they didn't work as a PIP. They'll keep your heart rate down, but they won't put you back in normal rhythm.

And I don't know how much time you allowed between the Multaq and flecainide, but I'd be extremely careful about mixing antiarrhythmics.

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NotLyingAboutMyAfib
I know it's best used right after you pop out of NSR but since I was on MulTaq I needed that to clear and I needed to eliminate two more possible suspects - vitamin K complex and MSG (an ingredient in Aromat - a meat spice concoction that finally made my steaks taste good).

Is Vitamin K complex an afib trigger? I had not heard that before. Or do you just mean Vitamin K complex should be stopped while one is in afib, or while taking PIP for afib?

I take Vitamin K2 daily as a companion to D3, so that calcium is directed to bones and doesn't form arterial deposits.

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PoetKim

I know it's best used right after you pop out of NSR but since I was on MulTaq I needed that to clear and I needed to eliminate two more possible suspects - vitamin K complex and MSG (an ingredient in Aromat - a meat spice concoction that finally made my steaks taste good).

Is Vitamin K complex an afib trigger? I had not heard that before. Or do you just mean Vitamin K complex should be stopped while one is in afib, or while taking PIP for afib?

I take Vitamin K2 daily as a companion to D3, so that calcium is directed to bones and doesn't form arterial deposits.

Not Lying has more details, but there seems to be a small cadre of people where K2 can be a trigger. That being said, I've taken and do take a lot of K2 without issue. The product I take has 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin. Also Dean, who is from Australia and is a long time poster here, has kept his afib at bay since the mid-2000's with daily consumption of natto food (Japanese fermented soybeans). Natto is choky full of K2-MK-7. Here is a search on Dean's natto posts (going back 14 years) [www.afibbers.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2020 12:50PM by GeorgeN.

"Metoprolol and diltiazem aren't antiarrhythmics, so it's no surprise they didn't work as a PIP. They'll keep your heart rate down, but they won't put you back in normal rhythm."

I think he meant he used Flecainide PIP, along with first Metropolol then Diltiazem to protect against the risk of 1:1 Flutter.

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GeorgeN
Not Lying has more details, but there seems to be a small cadre of people where K2 can be a trigger. That being said, I've taken and do take a lot of K2 without issue. The product I take has 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin. Also Dean, who is from Australia and is a long time poster here, has kept his afib at bay since the mid-2000's with daily consumption of natto food (Japanese fermented soybeans). Natto is choky full of K2-MK-7. Here is a search on Dean's natto posts (going back 14 years) [www.afibbers.org]

Thank you George for the K-complex information! I will check into those natto posts of Dean's. I currently take 100 mcg of K2-Mk7 with 2000 IU D3. But I am always revisingn my supplement regimen. Some people say not to take them together. But I believe that in relative low doses like I am taking, they do not compete with each other (block each other's absorption) when taken at same time.

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Carey
Metoprolol and diltiazem aren't antiarrhythmics, so it's no surprise they didn't work as a PIP. They'll keep your heart rate down, but they won't put you back in normal rhythm.

And I don't know how much time you allowed between the Multaq and flecainide, but I'd be extremely careful about mixing antiarrhythmics.

I was lucky to convert with diliazem, low sodium v8, magnesium 200-400mg and a few glasses of water as part of my cocktail. But that’s me. If it didn’t convert me, as least my HR was more manageable and I experienced less symptoms. Especially now with the 2 day lag time of getting covid19 tested and returning for an ECV.

Thank you Carey for posting to the newbies to be careful of mixing anti arrhythmic drugs. It’s dangerous and a trusted EP could advise one on how long to wait before switching because of their half life and one’s liver enzymes metabolism before it’s out of your system.

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NotLyingAboutMyAfib
bubkis.

I know it's best used right after you pop out of NSR but since I was on MulTaq I needed that to clear and I needed to eliminate two more possible suspects - vitamin K complex and MSG (an ingredient in Aromat - a meat spice concoction that finally made my steaks taste good).

That's 2 attempts at PIP, one with met suc and this time with diltiazem... not a thing.

Headed to Austin in a month.

Are you taking MSG? That is big no no. It's a definite trigger for Afib.

MSG—
I did a stupid msg science experiment in 2004 about 9 times at home to test msg as a trigger. I wanted to rule out flukes if other ingredients acted as triggers. It triggered my AF each time.

Unfortunately with msg being a hidden ingredient in takeout and restaurant menus, one is never sure. Once in Manhattan at noon, rush hour for those locals getting lunch and rushing back to work with limited time, I was in line to buy what appeared to me to simply being grill chicken breasts. When it was my time to order, I asked the food server if they used seasoning. He said no. It was just olive oil and chicken he said. I asked for the cook to confirm. By then there was a small line behind me. The cook arrives and I asked if they used any powder or liquid seasoning? Nope he said. I asked if they used soup seasoning cubes or did they soak it in a marinade. Nope he replied. So being anal I asked for his assistant who actually watched him make it. I was out of town and hungry and started to feel for the growing line. The guy arrives and after my questions he said “only salad dressing”. I then asked to see the bottle. Third or fourth ingredient was msg.

There are trustworthy food servers. At a celebration event at a fancy restaurant, I repeated my line of questions. I wanted steamed in water veggies. My instructions were to get a pot, add water, throw in the veggies, heat and serve it. He told the chef my request and unknowingly to me, he waited a bit in the kitchen and watched it being made. The chef added msg flavored soup cubes to the water. He had the chef redo it. I would had never known if it wasn’t for his diligence. He got an additional $20 to his tip and my gratitude.

So you never know. Pre covid19 I would only eat at 4 restaurants who knew me and steamed my food in water or wiped the grill and threw on a pure untainted virgin chicken breast. Or I would buy food with no hidden ingredients that included msg. Now I search the package for “no msg” written as a rule.

You may read this and think I should never eat out or badger food workers. But I want to live life and be my own advocate to my health...or else I might as well live in a glass bubble. Before covid19, I traveled twice a year to Europe, visiting multiple countries each vacation tasting local cuisine without eating msg. It’s possible to have both.

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susan.d
MSG—
I did a stupid msg science experiment in 2004 about 9 times at home to test msg as a trigger. I wanted to rule out flukes if other ingredients acted as triggers. It triggered my AF each time.

There was a poster here, Fran or Francis Ross in the early 2000's. MSG was her issue. Avoiding it in all its forms was her ticket to putting her 20 year afib in remission. Her story is here [www.afibbers.org] , starting on p4 {edit} of the PDF.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2020 07:55PM by GeorgeN.

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GeorgeN

MSG—
I did a stupid msg science experiment in 2004 about 9 times at home to test msg as a trigger. I wanted to rule out flukes if other ingredients acted as triggers. It triggered my AF each time.


There was a poster here, Fran or Francis Ross in the early 2000's. MSG was her issue. Avoiding it in all its forms was her ticket to putting her 20 year afib in remission. Her story is here [www.afibbers.org] , starting on p2 of the PDF.

I miss these reports! Thanks George for reposting!! I too contributed in 2007 to the link stating I was AF free the prior 3 years. The 3 years turned to five and I got an AF episode from chemo. I listed what worked for me to remain in nsr.

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colindo
Are you taking MSG? That is big no no. It's a definite trigger for Afib.

MSG may be a trigger for some people, and I thought I was one of them until I actually tested it. I went to the store and bought a container of "Accent," which is pure MSG. I dissolved a full tablespoon in a glass of water and drank it.

Nothing happened. Felt a little flushed maybe, but that was about it.

So the next day I tried it again with 2 tablespoons. Again, nothing.

Threw the Accent away and scratched off another trigger suspect. I don't think it's a universal trigger, only for some people.

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Carey

Are you taking MSG? That is big no no. It's a definite trigger for Afib.

MSG may be a trigger for some people, and I thought I was one of them until I actually tested it. I went to the store and bought a container of "Accent," which is pure MSG. I dissolved a full tablespoon in a glass of water and drank it.

Nothing happened. Felt a little flushed maybe, but that was about it.

So the next day I tried it again with 2 tablespoons. Again, nothing.

Threw the Accent away and scratched off another trigger suspect. I don't think it's a universal trigger, only for some people.

You are lucky.

Maybe, but I can't count how many people have said "X is a trigger for me" and when I ask why they think so, they report a single incident in which AF followed X one single time. Or often they've never even experienced it; they've just been told X is a trigger. Caffeine is a great example. Doctors have been telling people with AF to avoid caffeine for decades, but there's no good evidence it triggers AF, and in fact there's good evidence it's actually slightly helpful.

Here's the thing with triggers: If you blame the thing you did right before AF began, pretty soon you'll have identified virtually everything in your life as a trigger. So I applied actual science to the things I thought were triggers, and one by one I ruled all of them out except dehydration, low potassium, and to a lesser extent high BP. (Large lunch meals followed by sitting at a desk job ended up a maybe for me, but large meals followed by sitting on the couch at night did not. Figure that one out.)

Aren't you supposed to take met suc or diltiazem to act as channel blocker before taking flec? Maybe that's why it isn't working. Just straight flec?

"administration of flecainide (with a beta blocker or nondihydropyridine calcium channel blocker administered at least 30 minutes prior to flecainide),"

[academic.oup.com]

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NotLyingAboutMyAfib
Aren't you supposed to take met suc or diltiazem to act as channel blocker before taking flec? Maybe that's why it isn't working. Just straight flec?

"administration of flecainide (with a beta blocker or nondihydropyridine calcium channel blocker administered at least 30 minutes prior to flecainide),"

[academic.oup.com]

No, that's not why it didn't work. Keep taking the BB or diltiazem when you try the flecainide PIP. If I misunderstood and you were saying you took that along with a PIP dosage of flecainide, I apologize. I misunderstood to think you took only the BB or diltiazem and no flecainide.

Thanks Cary - alright - I did it right and it doesn't work.

About the K - I have found no connection in research about K and AF.

MSG - same thing - some anecdotal but no research.

Still worth a try.

Headed to Austin with one last hope but even if it is the miracle cure it will probably be too late to know and or change the scheduled date.

Stars are too aligned as insurance will cover 100% of this procedure.

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NotLyingAboutMyAfib

About the K - I have found no connection in research about K and AF.

.

The fundamentals of regulating intracellular levels of both Mg and K have been posted many times since Hans started this forum. PC MD has written on the topic in the Conference Room and posts. Many afibbers have posted about their experience with gaining NSR once they optimize IC Mg levels and also make sure they are not either low or too high in K intake.

[www.ahajournals.org]

[www.afibbers.org]

My experience is that it's very important to manage ratios even after ablation.

I wish you well with your Natale and Austin experience.

Jackie

Jackie - I should clarify: Vitamin K complex as in vitamins K, K2, Mk4, Mk7 and not K potassium.