Too much magnesium ?

Since almost week 1 of AF, I've been taking different forms of magnesium (hydroxide, carbonate, taurate, glycinate, citrate) and based on Amazon purchases and consumption am more than likely saturated to the gills with MG - is it possible that too much MG would be detrimental?

Too much of any electrolyte can cause serious problems. You never want to go too high or too low with any of the electrolytes because that always comes with potentially life-threatening consequences. But hypermagnesemia is rare in people with normal kidney function. Why are you taking different forms and how much are you taking?

While it can happen, usually bowel tolerance is the first limiting factor, then kidney excretion the second.

I looked into this years ago, because of the quantity of magnesium I was taking. One person I came across was the now late Herbert Mansmann Jr. MD. He was a retired doc (pediatrician?) with T2. He was very overweight and had neuropathy. He used very large doses of magnesium to reverse the neuropathy (we both know, he should have been fasting, but...)

From the [web.archive.org] this is from p 77 of the linked PDF on magnesium, which is worth a read, IMO.

Quote
Herbert Mansmann
Dr. Herbert Mansmann Jr., Director of the Magenesium Research Lab,
who is a diabetic with congenital magnesium deficiency and severe peripheral
neuropathy, shares that he was able to reverse the neuropathy and nerve
degeneration with a year of using oral magnesium preparations at very
high doses. “For example it took me 6 tabs of each of the following every 4
hours, Maginex, MgOxide, Mag-Tab SR and Magonate to get in positive Mg
balance. I tell people this not to scare them, but to illustrate how much I needed
to saturate myself. Most will only need 10% of this amount. I was doing an
experiment on myself to see if it helped my diabetic neuropathy. It worked so I
did it for one year, and I have had significant nerve regeneration. I could
never have been able to do this with MgSO4 baths (Epsom Salt), since I could
not get into and out of a bath tub”
“I was saturated at about 3 grams of elemental Mg per day, but went to 20
grams for over a year. I now take 5 grams, and stools are semi-formed, and the
surrounding water is clear, 3-4 per day.” “Mg is very safe, since the gut
absorption is regulated by serum Mg levels, and then the Mg stays in the gut
and results in varying degrees of diarrhea. Then the dose is too high. Want soft
semi-formed stools. Mine, while on high dosages of magnesium were liquid
every 2-4 hours for 2 years, the electrolytes every month were normal, but for
low potassium, part of my urinary Mg wasting, both.”
Dr. Mansmann concludes, “I have had diabetic neuropathy (DN) for over 10
years. The most significant symptom is my neuropathic pain of burning feet,
called erythromelalgia (EM). With the aid of Mg I can completely suppress the
symptom, but if my blood glucose level is acutely elevated, because of a dietary
indiscretion, the pain flares in spite of an apparent adequate dose of Mg. It goes
away with extra Mg gluconate (Magonate) in an hour or so in either case.
Without the Mg it will last for six plus hours, even though the blood glucose
level is normal in about two hours.” “It is my belief that every one with
diabetes should be taking Mg supplementation to the point of one’s
Maximum Tolerated Dose, which is until one has soft-semi, formed stools.

In addition, anyone with neuropathy, without a known cause, must be
adequately evaluated for diabetes and especially those with poorly, slowly,
healing foot sores of any kind. Since the use of Mg is safe I see no reason that
this should not be “the standard of care”.

The reason there are different types were to try each to see if they worked better than the other. None did that I can tell.

Right now, I take 900 mg glycinate (450 bid) and sip the mg hydroxide (4gm), potasium citrate (4gm), taurine (4gm) and ribose (10g) in a gallon of water everyday.

If you don't get a laxative effect, you probably aren't getting too much. Best way to know your status is to get a Red Blood Cell Magnesium test from request a test.com. You order the test for yourself, and pay for it online. then take the order they send you to either LabCorps or Quest and you'll have your resutt in a couple of days on their website. You want to be between 6 nd 6.5 mg/dl to avoid Mg deficiency symptoms. Or you can ask your doctor to order it. If you don't feel comfortable going to a lab, grassrootshealth.net offers some sort of magnesium at home test but I'm not sure what range is ideal. From what I understand, it takes many months to a year or two of 900 mg or so to reach the ideal range. There are many things which get in the way of Mg absorption, one being Zinc which we are all taking now due to Covid, and too much calcium. lus all of the stress AF puts on your body and mind depletes it as well. It looks like you are taking a really effective combination of supplements for cardiac health, but since you've been in constant AF for a week, have you looked into medication or ablation?

I tried to out run AF by taking Mg and Potassium, but couldn't get saturated fast enough. Don't wait like I did, it's a progressive condition.

Good books: Magnificent Magnesium by Dr. Dennis Goodman (cardioilogist), Magnesium Miracle by Carolyn Dean M D

Quote
NotLyingAboutMyAfib
Right now, I take 900 mg glycinate (450 bid) and sip the mg hydroxide (4gm), potasium citrate (4gm), taurine (4gm) and ribose (10g) in a gallon of water everyday.

Geez, dude, that's a boatload of electrolytes. I think you've gone beyond reasonable and you're potentially in dangerous territory. When's the last time you had an electrolyte panel drawn?

At the hospital 2 weeks ago when I had my ECV. - They didn't note anything to me. I also had electrolytes done in first week of May - everything in range.

I am going to see if I can get an Exatest ordered - and looking into Tikosyn when I talk to cardi this AM.

Quote
NotLyingAboutMyAfib
At the hospital 2 weeks ago when I had my ECV. - They didn't note anything to me. I also had electrolytes done in first week of May - everything in range.

I am going to see if I can get an Exatest ordered - and looking into Tikosyn when I talk to cardi this AM.

Serum mag really doesn't tell you much. You can be low on an intracellular level and still be in range on a serum test. The ExaTest clearly gives the most info.

RBC mag is a second choice. I've done a number of these. I now test in 7's on an RBC. When I reduced my mag intake to lower this down to Dr. Dean's 6-6.5 range, I got afib.

There are a couple of inherited conditions that cause wasting of K & Mg - Bartter Syndrome & Gitelman Syndrome. Even though I'm sure I dump a lot of Mg in my urine (because of my huge bowel tolerance), this appeared at age 49. There is info on these issues here.

I was listening to a 3 person panel discussing vitamin d. Carole Baggerly of [www.grassrootshealth.net] noted they are offering a whole blood magnesium test and that the results parallel ionized magnesium test for less hassle & money. I think ExaTest still gives the most information, as it gives info on potassium & calcium and their ratios. In your case, NotLyingAboutMyAfib, I'd still get the ExaTest. I'm posting this for others who may want just the mag test. The RBC mag is the cheapest.

Asking for Exatest to primary.

NLAMAF - great if you can get the ExaTest.order. Long ago when I had a problem getting it ordered, a chiropractor/friend offered to do it and that worked out well.

On the question supplementing with too much magnesium, 9 years ago, I offered a report about the absorption of various forms of magnesium. You may find something useful there. Keep in mind that just because you take a nutrient, doesn't guarantee it is 'assimilated' appropriately or reaches the target cells - thus my report back then.
[www.afibbers.org]

There is another consideration for the chelated versions that are labeled as 'buffered'.... (and there should be archived posts here on that topic as well.) With a true amino acid chelate, there is no need to include a buffer as magnesium oxide, but for some reasons you'll often see that in the fine print on the label identifying the 'form' of magnesium. Discussions have indicated that is just a way of diluting the product with magnesium oxide which is 1) very inexpensive and 2) is very difficult to absorb or metabolize so if a "buffered" product has a considerable amount of magnesium oxide, while the amount taken in milligrams will appear to be a generous dose, what is actually usable or bioavailable can be considerably less. So it may appear you take a high dose but may not actually be that high. Typically, the bowel tolerance issue for the average person is an indicator of optimal dosing... but not always a true measure of what actually is able to access the intracellular target and that's the main goal for afibbers.

Jackie

ExaTest is the answer. I'm asking primary on Friday.

George N, How did you get your RBC Mg up to 7? and how long did it take? Did you use ReMag or some other form? Did you use transdermal? If so, in what form, how much, how long on the skin? Are you maintaining it at 7? Have you had ablation/ablations? on any meds?

Sorry about all of the questions, but you seem so willing to help.

Lani

Is cellular Mg uptake dependent on adequate B vitamins, particularly B6???

Quote
LaniB
George N, How did you get your RBC Mg up to 7? and how long did it take?

I did not start measuring RBC until the last few years. I've been taking Mg for my afib since Nov 2004. I'd done an ExaTest in Sept 2004. On that I was out of range low and that was one of the things that started me on supplementing magnesium for afib. I also had eye fasciculations (eye lid twitches - a sign of low mag). I started supplementing with probably 800 mg/day of magnesium glycinate. Subsequently, I've successfully used nearly every form of magnesium (glycinate, bicarbonate, malate, citrate, sulfate, acetate, oxide, chloride and probably more that I'm not remembering right now). Note, there isn't any special Mg form for me, any form works for me. My tolerance is now >6 grams/day. All values I list are for elemental magnesium, not the compound. A normal day for me is 2.6 g of Mg as di-magnesium malate, 1 g of Mg citrate. I might add in 4 g of chloride (I have probably 30 kg of mag chloride in my garage). I use magnesium hydroxide powder for deodorant (put the powder is a used spice, like pepper, shaker & apply after a shower). More in this post.

Quote

Did you use ReMag or some other form?

I have, but I need to take so much, it would be horribly expensive. It tastes like mag chloride to me, not sure if it is any different than just plain mag chloride and an extremely expensive form at that! So no, I don't use it.

Quote

Did you use transdermal? If so, in what form, how much, how long on the skin?

I do, but mostly if I've been backpacking & I put it on my feet. I make mag oil from my mag chloride (my chloride is nigari - used by Japanese for coagulating tofu}. I even had this analyzed by a chemist friend on her mass spectrometer machine for heavy metals.

Quote

Are you maintaining it at 7?

Mine is actually 7.5-7.9. I don't test frequently, but it is always in this range. I don't necessarily encourage keeping levels above 6.5. I've tried lowering my intake to get my level back down to 6.5, but I've gotten afib breakthroughs. I've posted about my coaching my 34 year old son-in-law with afib. He tested at 5.5 in January & we are trying to get his up in the 6-6.5 range.

Quote

Have you had ablation/ablations?

No ablations

Quote

on any meds?

No ongoing meds. I do use flecainide on demand if I go out of rhythm. I've been out of rhythm twice in the last two years, the last time was in January, 2019. I did have a 2.5 month episode in the first four months of my afib career in 2004, so that was not an auspicious start. One of the times I posted my story is here.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2020 12:06PM by GeorgeN.

There is a report from 2010 titled Magnesium Absorption and Assimilation that details various fundamentals, methods and form of magnesium used to optimize intracellular levels and therefore, help improve a variety of 'ailments' including arrhythmia which may be helpful to new members who are wanting to optimize IC levels of Mg.

[www.afibbers.org]

Jackie

Jackie - the link you posted doesn't take me to a different page. Would you please repost?
Thank you.

Some people can get too much Magnesium NLAMA, though in most cases it's the opposite that tends to occur with insufficient Mag.

Go to our AFIB Report Archives and look up issue #138 June/July 2015 issue and read the article I wrote with liberal excerpts from an original article offered to me by my friend and renowned integrative MD, Dr. Jonathan Wright, from near Seattle Washington, titled 'Magnesium: Too Much of a Good Thing?'

That article describes a well-vetted scenario in which in a select group of people embarking on a magnesium repletion program who fail to get the desired benefits from magnesium restoration, who then find they suffer from 'Gastrointestinal Hurry' (GH), a medical condition title, with a distinct British flare, marking the origin of its first known discovery.

Instead of my reproducing the entire article here, that is largely written by Dr. Wright, i'll give a general overview below and encourage all those interested in this topic to go to the Archives link of our Afibbers.org website on the front page, left side bar links, to find the Archived AFIB Report issues. Just drop down to Issue #138 of The AFIB Report, and you'll find the first report in that issue explains this topic fully .

In summary, the term 'Gastrointestinal Hurry' describes a condition in which for some folks the transit-time of food through one's entire GI track from beginning to end, gets sped up relative to the normal broad range of typical healthy 'transit times' of food, especially under the influence of certain substances, in this case too high a dose of Magnesium as the key culprit for people prone to this anomaly.

The rough broad range of typical transit times in otherwise healthy people range from 12hrs to 14hrs up to around 24hrs, depending on a host of influences. Dr. Wright then reviews the case of the English chemistry professor who is credited with first recognizing 'GH', and who had been taking 500mg of supplemental Magnesium a day, yet who was not enjoying the benefits he was hoping for from the magnesium addition to his diet.

The professor began his overall GI transit time test by first not taking his usual daily 500mg of oral magnesium, and his rough GI transit time was approx. 18hrs. However, in measuring his transit-time several hours after ingesting his typical daily 500mg Mag dose, his transit time dropped precipitously to approx. 9 to 10 hrs ... well below the typical 12-14hrs low end of GI transit times. And significantly, this large a drop did not trigger any bowel intolerance, cramping or diarrhea!

Most recommended oral Magnesium dosing regimens suggest a daily dietary magnesium intake range of 400mg to 1000mg a day. And while this is a perfectly valid range for a significant majority of healthy folks, it is not entirely uncommon for a person to experience excess 'Gastrointestinal Hurry' when taking a magnesium dose even just above 250mg per day magnesium dose.

What tends to happen for such people prone to this kind of 'Magesium-induced Magnesium deficiency' is that this speeded up transit time may well induce a whole host of other gradual onset nutritional-deficiency's from the too rapid progress of our food and supplements, in this case too fast a transit of magnesium through the GI tract.

The rest of the article fills in more relevant and useful details, including how to test for 'GH' in a simple home test, and how to assess a proper lower dose of magnesium such a prone person may tolerate.

If any of you take this GI transit test and find you too either can't take supplemental magnesium, or that you may just have to lower your dosage to a more tolerable level, I suggest considering switching to either topical magnesium or IV Magnesium Sulfate via an integrative physician or naturopathic doc who offers IV therapy, both of which tend to impact the GI tract less significantly than oral intake.

A Myers Cocktail for such an issue should start with 1gram of Magnesium Sulfate added to the combo IV Myers Cocktail infusion from which you ask the physician to remove any IV calcium that is often included in a Myers Cocktail. Afibbers should avoid IV calcium (unless you have frank hypercalcemia which is not common).

Shannon

Sorry... [www.afibbers.org]

J.

Thanks so much for your report, Jackie! I printed it to read over and over.

Thank you George for your information! I wish I had met you both a year ago when I was having Afib 100-120 bpm for 12+ hours every other day. It started a year before that but there were so many breaks in between episodes I denied it. I don't know why I was so calm about it. It would always happen just after i went to sleep, I would take some deep breaths and go back to sleep and it would go away in the morning, Then the next night I'd be free of it, sleep like a rock and feel great! Go out and mountain bike for a couple of hours, or a 3 hour hike in Utah Mountains. (which I now know may have caused the next episode)

The cardiologist I saw in Utah said he only hired the "best EP's " and that they had a 60% success rate on the first ablation. That scared me! A friend told me about Dr. Dean's book: Magnesim Miracle, so I devoured it. It became my new Bible . Within the first two weeks of starting her MgCl on very low doses, I went 4 days AF free!!! then 8 days! Wow! then 17 days!!! I was SO HAPPY, then 17 again and then 25. By that time I was up to about 1,200 mg per day and stools became too loose. I denied that too for about 4 months until I realized Mg was just not working for me any more. Tried 3 meds, but AF just kept happening more often and for longer. Amiodarone worked, but side effects made me want off it ASAP. I never took Flecanaide because Dr. Dean's book said Fl- depletes Mg, and Fl- is in Flec. (Wish I had) Local Doc did not offerr Tykosin maybe becuase the hospital was closed due to COVID unless it was an emergency. When i asked about it the NP told me that women typically don't do as well on it. Wish I had tried.

My best RBC mg was 5.2 when I was 25 days AF free, then 4.9 a few months later. Since then don't want to go to a lab for blood draw due to Covid fear. I need to stick with the RBC tests to see if I'm improving.

I had an ablation May 11, by Dr. Hranitzky in Raleigh, trained by Natale. Due to Covid I was afraid to fly and being in SC at the time, I could get to Raleigh by car in 4 hours, whereas Austin was 16 or so, and for us that would be 3 days. No way during Covid. I wish I hadn't waited so long. The recovery is a piece of cake! I didn't even have a sore throat from the entubation. I have since read somewhere that Mg helps with that. I think it was in Dr. Tom Levy's new bock on Mg.

I'm still trying to build up Mg so I ingest 600 mg of MgCl and put another 600 mg on my skin (300 mg 2X day) It is a real time commitment, but I'm determined to get the Mg up there. I know it will help my heart heal better and potentially keep me out of AF from here on. I think I'll try Glycinate form and see how that goes. I'd like to find one I can tolerate and take more. Thanks for saying that you had the MgCl tested for heavy metals because that fear is the only thing that would keep me buying the expensive stuff. It's just not sustainable! Now she's offering all sorts of expensive supplements.

Did you say you NEVER had a problem with bowel intolerance, or did you develp an ability to hold on to it over time?

Thanks for posting about your son in law. That is very encouraging.

And best wishes to ALL of you for staying in NSR!

Lani

Quote
LaniB

This is the analysis I did years ago when I purchased 40 kg of MgCl2

Quote

Did you say you NEVER had a problem with bowel intolerance, or did you develop an ability to hold on to it over time?

I would say my tolerance increased over time. I recall one time in the early years - don't remember when, I was volunteering at a Scout camp and got the gurgling people can get. I'm normally not on the edge of bowel tolerance now. My 3-4g a day is not close to tolerance for me. I can get there if I take enough, but it isn't the uncomfortable gurgling, I just get a loose stool when I go.

Quote

Thanks for posting about your son in law. That is very encouraging.

Turns out they spent the night last night. They are moving from one side of the country (700 miles away) to the other (1700 miles away) for new job postings. I chatted with him about his afib. He would say there has been a sea change in his afib from November 2019 to starting in Dec and continuing to now. He is one who clearly has digestion triggers. He generally eats very cleanly per my doc Gundry. However, now when he cheats, he just gets ectopic storms and not afib. He can see these on his Kardia. He has not had known afib since the one time in January when he used PIP flec to convert. As to magnesium. I had him start consuming the 4 g (2 tsp) of potassium citrate in a liter of water over the day. He started adding his magnesium powder (I think he's using di-magnesium malate from this source) to this and finds he can consume more without reaching bowel tolerance. The exercise piece seems to also be working well, which I posted about here.

In his case, it is a multipart solution. Mitigating alcohol intake. Moderating exercise as noted. Electrolytes including added potassium, magnesium, the amino acid taurine and avoiding excess calcium (from dairy). A low inflammation diet - avoiding bad lectins. He tends to stay in ketosis, too. Primarily through eating once a day & exercise plus not eating excessive refined carbs. His is not the typical "bro" keto diet. His BMI is 20.4, so he's not doing this for weight loss.

Anybody use Epsom Salt Baths to boost Mg? I don't take a full bath, but leave the stopper in my shower tub, dissolve the Salts in an inch of water, and then I end up getting several inches of foot soak every day while I take a shower. It appears that is what helped boost my Mg levels way up on the Exatest.

Cool idea fib. I'll try that.

I don't have it handy to cite, but I recall seeing a paper about Epsom salts and it found that absorption of Mg through the skin was extremely minimal. You might want to search for that.

Link to links to epsom salt study

My recommendation a friend with severe cramps.

Link on how to create lotions & etc for transdermal use.

There is also the topical magnesium chloride solution specifically that from the Ancient Zechstein Sea beds (for purity), gel or spray version... I've used the gel for years for sore muscles. It works quickly.

The book Transdermal Magnesium Therapy by Mark Sircus AC OMD is highly informative about the many uses for this type of transdermal delivery of magnesium chloride.

Jackie

This book, [web.archive.org] Magnesium for Life, also by Mark Sircus, is worth a read. This copy is from the "Wayback Machine" internet archive, so takes a moment to load.

I take Gaviscon regularly for acid reflux. It contains magnesium. Is that an adequate source

Quote
Pokey
I take Gaviscon regularly for acid reflux. It contains magnesium. Is that an adequate source

I don't think so.
I may be wrond, but, AFAIK, Mg has to be absorbed in the bowels. Gaviscon is for stomach acid reflux, so its contained Mg is likely useless for anything else.

Pokey - That magnesium would only be very minor. Typically, the issue for heartburn in the first place is that there is not enough stomach acid produced to break down food consumed. That leads to undigested food lying in the stomach and putrifying and causing gas, pain and bloating.

A solution is to use a digestive enzyme that helps break down food components.
Go to this archived link... [www.afibbers.org] and scan these reports related to this topic

No More Heartburn
Digestive Wellness - What You Need to Know
The Gut Connection to Afib

Let me know if I can help clarify. Just send me a PM

Jackie

Here's a 2010 post from the archives on magnesium success:

Magnesium - a love story

[www.afibbers.org]

Jackie

Jackie, thanks for the link ! It's a very informative thread about Mg.
I've a question: Has someone heard or read about "horsetail" caps (equisetum arvense) helping Mg absorption?

An interesting paper

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

An increased risk of AF was noted in individuals in the lowest quartile (adjusted hazard ratio, 1.34, 95% CI, 1.01 to 1.77; P=0.05) or lowest decile (adjusted hazard ratio, 1.48, 95% CI, 1.02 to 2.14; P=0.04) of serum magnesium, compared with the remaining participants

There was no association between serum potassium and AF in age- and sex-adjusted (HR per SD of serum potassium, 0.92, 95% CI, 0.81–1.04; p=0.18) or multivariable-adjusted (HR, 0.97; 95% CI, 0.85–1.10; p=0.62) models. Similarly, there was no association between serum calcium and AF in either age- and sex-adjusted (HR per SD of serum calcium, 0.96, 95% CI, 0.84–1.09; p=0.54) or multivariable-adjusted (HR, 0.93, 95% CI, 0.81–1.06; P=0.26) models.

I don't make too much of it. Magnesium has to be really low to get a low serum value. Same with calcium, high or low. Potassium varies all the time. They sampled once and then looked at outcomes over 20 years. Also, they were average age 44 at sample time. Unless athletes, would not expect afib in this group.

George - please see my post about mg k and Inuit

My kidneys were hurting and I had to stop taking 'too much'

Top issue, it's having no effect on my AF (never has been my magic bullet but happy it works for others) but without either I am having leg cramps already.

I feel like Seinfeld - "figure out what will kill me then back it off a little bit"

[www.youtube.com]

The unfortunate reality is that there is nothing that will cure afib. However, there are several things that we can do to reduce the chances of afib, and appropriate levels of magnesium is one of those things. However, supplementing may very well have no impact on the occurrence of afib. On the other hand, supplementing may have a positive impact which may or may not be measurable or noticed. It all adds up to the frustration of trying to manage the affliction.

Bottom line - we try to do all the "right things" and hope for the best. I think some go way overboard trying to find the "magic bullets", but I also understand the compulsion and desire to find answers.

Jackie, thanks for the great report on proper magnesium absorption from 2010!!

Do you know of any health praticioners which are well versed in this, as well as controlling AF?

I am a retired RDH too! Would love to correspond if you ever have time. lanibel1980@gmail.com, 239-826-5647

Does anyone know if the Ancient Minerals brand of MgCl is safe? (from contamination)