Can too much magnesium be a bad thing?

I'm assuming the answer is 'yes'.

But I'm asking for other's experiences, really. I had been having more regular heart 'activity' recently. But it's been a stressful period for me, and I've had other health probs too.

In response, I upped my magnesium (from Holland & Barrett) dose from 500mg daily to 750mg daily. About 3 nights ago, I had a terrible sleep, with bloating to the point where I almost felt as if my heart couldn't be felt beating in my chest. Like it was being muffled.

Last few nights have been as bad. As soon as I lay down, it's like the bloating crept up on me and the increased ectopics/palpitations began.

I reduced my dose again yesterday and last night wasn't as bad but was still difficult. Today I've had regular ectopics though. I'm planning to stay at a reduced dose and see if they alleviate somewhat.

Thankfully, I'm due to have a week-long ECG in 2 weeks so I may get somewhere.

Sounds like you need to try to get the Air out of your innards before you retire for the night. Exercise of Walking helps with this, as does having an assistant perform a Heimlich type maneuver to help belch the air out.

The usual end result of too much magnesium is diarrhea. At least for me, 750 would definitely be too much.

On good days, my dosages is 240mg. On bad days/nights, as much as 240mg every 4 hours. If its not diarrhea, its not a bad idea to have a good BM or two.

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DavrosT
I'm assuming the answer is 'yes'.

But I'm asking for other's experiences, really. I had been having more regular heart 'activity' recently. But it's been a stressful period for me, and I've had other health probs too.

In response, I upped my magnesium (from Holland & Barrett) dose from 500mg daily to 750mg daily. About 3 nights ago, I had a terrible sleep, with bloating to the point where I almost felt as if my heart couldn't be felt beating in my chest. Like it was being muffled.

Last few nights have been as bad. As soon as I lay down, it's like the bloating crept up on me and the increased ectopics/palpitations began.

I reduced my dose again yesterday and last night wasn't as bad but was still difficult. Today I've had regular ectopics though. I'm planning to stay at a reduced dose and see if they alleviate somewhat.

Certainly, too much mag can cause digestive issues, diarrhea but also cramping & etc. The quantity that can cause this is highly individual. My wife (not an afibber) has limits in the 200 mg level. My limit is more than 20 times that. My afibber son-in-law recently told me that he can take materially more when he adds powdered di-magnesium malate to my suggested liter of water with two tsp potassium citrate and 1/2 tsp table salt (~4g potassium & ~1 g sodium) to be consumed over the day. His limit is in the 700 mg level. PeggyM, who has posted here for a long time, years ago said her limit was in the 100 mg level. She also said that consuming sacromedies boulardii (a probiotic) increased this limit. Here is a search on her comments.

Over the years here, there are a small minority of afibbers reporting that magnesium in general, not just in a digestive sense, is a negative for their ectopics and afib.

I remember but can't point to a discussion on difficulty in measuring injested magnesium time to actually get into muscle tissue.
There is a current study of measurement of magnesium time to get in the blood which is not the same as into the muscles.
This leads to wondering if using PIP magnesium is of any value in treating afib or PVC flare-ups. It would seem not from this study published in 2019.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

I take at least 1000 mg a day of magnesium daily without issue. My GP says bowel tolerance would be the lone issue which I do not have.

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ggheld
I remember but can't point to a discussion on difficulty in measuring ingested magnesium time to actually get into muscle tissue.
There is a current study of measurement of magnesium time to get in the blood which is not the same as into the muscles.
This leads to wondering if using PIP magnesium is of any value in treating afib or PVC flare-ups. It would seem not from this study published in 2019.

All of the formulations tested were either capsules (some) or mostly tablets. A lot were mag oxide, which in other studies, has been shown to be the least bioavailable (I've seen stories of people seeing mag ox tablets in their stools when they defecate). For my n=1, I always use a powder for PIP use (either di-magnesium malate or mag citrate in addition to my normal daily intake). In my experience, it seems to speed PIP flec conversions. I'd consume the magnesium immediately after chewing the flec tablets.

I've never noticed any benefit from magnesium. If I take even 200mg I am negatively impacted with loose bowel. One time I rubbed probably 100mg or so of the mag oil on my chest and had pretty out of control pvcs about Half an hour later - I have no doubt it was the cause. Proving to me it is relevant, but not necessarily in a positive sense. I had been taking 100mg for the last few years which I can basically tolerate, but was only doing it because of all of the talk about it being helpful. I finally stopped it a couple months ago with no negative effect thus far.

Of course, the negative impact from Magnesium is greatly influenced by the type one consumes. And there are some garbage brands out there with some toxic added ingredients. I have found Glycinate to be the most tolerable.

If I take 400mg of the Calm Citrate powder, I have the running trots.🥴 I stay away from the powder. It says it’s Mag Citrate.

Month after month, I've tried various doses of Mg (mostly malate/bisglycinate), from zero to 1g/day (of Mg element), and I can't count the number of times I've thought the dose I was taking was good or bad.
The truth is it has no real effect on my HR. My EP was right about it, but I didn't believe him back then.
As said, Mg affects my bowels (it helps avoiding constipation, which is a good thing for me).
It brings me better sleep too, but with the adverse effect of giving me some headache when waking up (happily, it disappears quickly without taking meds).
I know we're all different, but I'm sure we often do the same mistake : linking cause and effect from what's just coincidence.
IMO, your HR problems are like mine : they mostly come from stomach issues.

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GeorgeN

Over the years here, there are a small minority of afibbers reporting that magnesium in general, not just in a digestive sense, is a negative for their ectopics and afib.

And there is even a smaller minority of afibbers reporting that by megadosing with magnesium they have managed over the long term to keep their AF in remission and avoid ablation. Similarly, actual studies have shown that although there is an association of lower Mg with AF, there is no real evidence that supplementation with Mg corrects the trajectory of AF. This is not surprising since many other deficiency-indicated diseases are not amenable to supplementation.

Hi all, thanks for your comments and advice.

I think I may give the mg a break for a while and see how my heart holds up.

Then, thanks to the great advice of Jackie, I will a different type of mg for a while. I'll stop the arginine too, and the taurine.

Just give my body a chance to readjust and see how I do. I know it's all on an individual basis, but I really appreciate all of your help and personal input. It's a great help, it really is.

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safib
And there is even a smaller minority of afibbers reporting that by megadosing with magnesium they have managed over the long term to keep their AF in remission and avoid ablation. Similarly, actual studies have shown that although there is an association of lower Mg with AF, there is no real evidence that supplementation with Mg corrects the trajectory of AF. This is not surprising since many other deficiency-indicated diseases are not amenable to supplementation.

I’ll respond, since this is directed at me.

First, I don’t think everyone should take “mega doses” of magnesium, or that it will work for everyone. If people choose to take it, I’ve clearly said there is a lot of biological individuality for tolerance.

Personally, I look at asymmetric risk when I evaluate a potential intervention. I’m willing to risk money, time, effort & etc, but not long term negative health consequences. I also try to look at every possible root cause. For example, I initially tested myself for H-Pylori (negative).

When I started this journey nearly 16 years ago, I read everything I could find – all the papers in PubMed as well as anecdotal experiences to figure out how to proceed. I started out going down two paths, one was the lifestyle, electrolytes & etc. path. The second was one to develop a hardware/software/med solution to ward off afib. My concept was to analyze real time ECG data to try to predict afib in advance. A sufficient lead time to take a med that would ward off the predicted episode. The second approach is an extremely difficult one and because the first one worked, I dropped the second approach.

For the first approach, I recorded my beat to beat heart rate (actually R to R time (RR) in milliseconds) nightly. I would also do this during a 30 minute or so meditation session as I was still during the meditation to minimize artifact in the RR data. I could “see” both PVC and PAC ectopic beats and would count them. I tested every intervention to see what happened to these counts. I tried many interventions. It is from this that I developed my approach, which was to detrain and consume magnesium, potassium and taurine.

Most of my episodes started at 3 AM or thereabouts. I found a paper showing how a “tachogram” or heart rate vs time (from ECG) could be used to detect apnea. I noticed these patterns in my RR data (apnea can be an afib trigger). I corrected these by taping my mouth shut at night as well as doing breathing exercises to increase my breathing center’s CO2 tolerance.

Over time, I have refined my approach. A paper in the 2005 time frame analyzed 30 years worth of afib data from Olmstead County MN (where Mayo Clinic HQ is). Hans abstracted the paper, but my take away is that many of the afibbers were initially healthier, but became metabolically ill over time. I determined that would not be a path for me to follow. I bought a glucometer in 2006 and started analyzing my response to various things I ate. One of the things I’d noticed is that I’d wake up at 3AM ish hot and sweaty (I was eating a high carb, athlete's diet). This is indicative of nighttime hypoglycemia (a potential afib trigger). The result of this and my glucometer analysis was me becoming keto-adapted in Oct 2009. Though I don’t eat a strict keto diet, I always test positive for mild amounts of serum beta hydroxybuterate in the morning (0.5-0.9 mmol/L). When I made this switch, I eliminated the hypoglycemia symptoms. Optimizing this, I try to keep HbA1c <5.0% and fasting insulin <2. To enable autophagy, I do periodic water fasts of 5-7 days (which may have initial risks for afibbers because of electrolyte disturbances).

Later, as I’ve previously posted, I realized that excess calcium intake was a contributing trigger for me, so I eliminated it. For me, exercise is very important, so I worked hard to quantify my appropriate intensity. Pure aerobic or Zone 2 is where I can do a lot of volume without triggering afib, though I can and do limited amounts of HIIT exercise. I do a lot of bodyweight training for strength. I avoid the issues that Natale warned Shannon about for weight training.

I’ve tried to optimize everything that I can for health. I consult with a doc in Palm Springs who measures many different cytokines for inflammation (far beyond HS CRP). I’ve titrated my diet to optimize these cytokines.

In summary, the takeaway from my story isn’t to mimic the supplements I take. It is to monitor and analyze as many things as possible and see what works for you. I’m also aware that some situations won’t lend themselves to this and that there is an element of luck to all of this, too.

I’ve tested much of what I do with the protocols of Single Subject Research. I would encourage others to do likewise. When I first proposed my initial plan outline, which included a PIP flec script, to my EP 15.5 years ago, his comment was that using yourself as your own control was perfectly valid. I've followed that advice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2020 04:02AM by GeorgeN.

I’m fine at 800 mg/day, but that’s just me. All is Healthy Origins bisglycinate chelate.

The point I was trying to make above was that if one is going to quantify the number of people who adversely react to large doses of Mg, then it is useful to point out similar statistics about the number of people who actually achieve remission of AF by the same use of Mg.

It is true that in other threads I have remarked that many of your practices involving hypothermia and hypoglycemia and ketosis are ill-advised for individuals with AF, and this is in fact the view of many prominent EPs like Natale. My understanding is these things are potentially unsafe. People who occasionally peruse this site may not hear this other side and might be tempted to try these things based on your apparent success, even if you preface it by something to the effect of "you are not recommending others try this" or "it may not work for everyone". But my above comment was not of this type, it was just addressing efficacy and not safety.

I like your abandoned approach much better, especially if you could develop algorithms based on large numbers of people with AF, and then tune them to your individual case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2020 11:03AM by safib.

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safib
It is true that in other threads I have remarked that many of your practices involving hypothermia and hypoglycemia and ketosis are ill-advised for individuals with AF, and this is in fact the view of many prominent EPs like Natale. My understanding is these things are potentially unsafe.

I like your abandoned approach much better, especially if you could develop algorithms based on large numbers of people with AF, and then tune them to your individual case.

Depends on your definition of safety. Is there a risk that some of what I do could precipitate an afib episode? Yes, certainly. So can eating certain foods or drinking cold liquids for some people. There is a long list of things that can precipitate arrhythmia in afibbers. I've noted that ketosis can cause electrolyte shifts that can cause arrhythmia. I knew this when I originally keto adapted in 2009. I did experience one episode. I've not experienced any other episodes due to ketosis or low blood sugar in the subsequent 10.5 years (including nineteen five day water fasts in 8 months in 2017). As I mentioned above, I look at asymmetric risk. I don't view precipitating one afib episode as a large cost if the potential benefit is large enough. Others may differ in how they value this risk. I look at hyperinsulinemia as a huge risk for health and chronic health, hence it was worth one episode to mitigate the long term risk. Also had the afib benefit of eliminating nighttime hypoglycemic episodes which can trigger afib. When my blood sugar dropped to 32 mg/dL one day (and then went and set PR's at the gym on my lifts), I was not concerned as I had reviewed the research of the late George Cahill MD of Harvard. In the 1960's, he'd fasted obese seminary students for at least 40 days, and then given them exogenous insulin. Their average blood sugar was 18 mg/dL (1 mmol/L) with one fellow at 9 mg/dL. They had zero cognitive issues because of their ~5 mmol/L serum beta hydroxybuterate levels. My neurologist climbing buddy said he'd only seen comatose patients with blood sugar in the 30's. I pointed out he likely wasn't familiar with Cahill's papers.

Yes there is risk in what i do. There is risk in everything. I do the research to calculate what the risk/benefit is for me and I don't take risks that, in my view, have long term negative health consequences.

Hyper or hypothermia have never precipitated afib for me.

In my "real" as opposed to online life. I've had quite a few folks benefit from my suggestions. One friend who is a WPW (Wolfe Parkinson White) ablatee found that she needs to stay in ketosis to not have high levels of PAC's when exerting herself. Magnesium in the multigram levels has been very helpful for her. I've recently posted about my son-in-law and his relatively good afib remission success. Another friend has had afib about as long as I have and he keeps it under control with high dose mag. I could go on. Erling Waller, who created the "Waller Water" magnesium bicarb recipe here kept his afib under control with lower dose mag, but continuous consumption throughout the day. He used to live in my town and we'd have lunch periodically.

Then there is my friend, Tom Seest, who I posted about here and he then posted more details. "I came across all this back when I was trying to get my cardiologist to agree to cardiovert me after 14 months of constant A-Fib. In that period, I used fasting and the ketogenic diet to reverse remodel from an LVEF of 27% to 53% in 5 months before he cardioverted me. Ultimately, the thing that convinced him were numbers like my BNP, as well as the visual reverse remodelling in my TTE's the first time."

In my book, taking your LVEF from 27% to 53% is a big payoff - asymmetric risk.

It is not my definition of safety. And the risk is not that of precipitating a single episode of afib. Your few anecdotes don't reflect the risk (a statistical quantity), probably not to you and certainly not to anyone else. You pick and choose as it suits you rather than using a consistent scientific approach as to when to agree with experts like Natale or with profiteers like Gundry and Oz (cardiosurgeons turned nutritional epidemiologists with no training, studies or publications in the field, and who in addition have dubious financial self-interests). This is fine but it is also fine for me to point out that your methods which involve clinical hypothermia, hypoglycemia and ketosis are risks not only to afib but one's health in general, in accord with the advice and warnings from experts, who do understand the risks not from a few anecdotes but rather from accumulated data and studies.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2020 11:12AM by safib.