Carolyn Dean, Magnesium and Vitamin D

From Dr. Dean:

“You’ve been feeling great on your magnesium, and then you begin taking high-dose vitamin D and find yourself experiencing magnesium deficiency symptoms again. Magnesium is involved in 8 chemical reactions required to transform vitamin D from its storage form into its active form. That means if you take the extremely high doses that allopathic doctors are now recommending, you can plummet into magnesium deficiency and not know why. For this reason I don’t recommend more than 1,000–2,000 IU of vitamin D3 daily. And never take vitamin D without magnesium.”

The investigators said ‘Our preliminary findings indicate it is possible that magnesium intake alone or its interaction with vitamin D intake may contribute to vitamin D status. The associations between serum 25(OH)D and risk of mortality may be modified by the intake level of magnesium. Future studies, including cohort studies and clinical trials, are necessary to confirm the findings.’ Let me repeat, it is possible that magnesium intake alone…may contribute to vitamin D status.

From the existing literature, we know that low vitamin D increases the risk of mortality and morbidity and magnesium plays an essential role in vitamin D metabolism. Putting these two facts together, researchers in a 2015 study investigated whether magnesium intake modifies the serum 25(OH)D3 concentration and its association with mortality in middle-aged and older men.[ii] The study included 1892 men aged 42–60 years without cardiovascular disease or cancer. They concluded that low serum 25(OH)D3 concentration was associated with increased risk of death mainly in those with lower magnesium intake.”

For optimum bone balance I recommend the minerals in ReMag, ReMyte, and ReCalcia (if you get less than 600mg of calcium in your diet), and Blue Ice Royal, which provides Vitamins A, D, K2, and omega-3 fatty acids from fermented cod liver oil and butter oil.***

*****

So, is she saying supplement with Vit. D or not? I had my levels tested in mid-Feb and the result was 11 I am currently taking 5,000 iu of Vit D3 daily (along with MK7, Magnesium 525mg, Taurine 1000mg and Vit. B12.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2019 10:28AM by katesshadow.

Kate - Your vitamin D level of 11 is alarmingly low. Are you symptomatic?

When I had mine tested many years ago, it was 18 and I was having a lot of problems with fatigue and muscle pain and weakness. My primary care MD sent me to a Rheumatologist who pronounced I had "fibromyalgia" the catch-all diagnosis term for 'we don't know what causes your symptoms', but - "here take this Rx and cross your fingers you get relief."

After a considerable amount of time with continuing misery, I had the good fortune to become a patient of a new family practice MD who had just relocated to our area...and she practiced Functional Medicine. Thus, the 20 OH D test with the extremely low levels. After ramping up dosing and testing periodically, I had reached 5,000 daily but wasn't completely free of the muscle fatigue and pain symptoms, so we increased to 10,000 IU daily... until I reached 70 ng/ml . To maintain that, I take 10,000 October to April and then drop to 5,000 when we have warm weather and sunshine. (I live in NE Ohio)... so your location may alter your dosing once you become optimized.

Additionally, and this is extremely important....you also need to supplement with Vitamin K2 MK7... that's the form that directs circulating calcium into bones rather than depositing in arteries or making bone spur and it needs to be an amount high enough that will perform that function.

I take (2) Jarrow Formulas, MK-7, Vitamin K2 as MK-7 - 90 mcg/gel cap... when I use the higher 10K dose and then cut back to 1 gel cap with the lower dose of Vitamin D3.

My bone density scans are so good that I can space them out considerably and after the last, I just chose not to continue.

In the Dean article you quoted... just ignore the recommendation to take the ReCalcia as supplemental calcium for afibbers is not recommended.

I wish you well with the challenge of increasing your D levels and also hope, if you are symptomatic, you begin to have relief.

Best to you,
Jackie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 01:20PM by Jackie.

Quote
Jackie
Kate - Your vitamin D level of 11 is alarmingly low. Are you symptomatic?

When I had mine tested many years ago, it was 18 and I was having a lot of problems with fatigue and muscle pain and weakness. My primary care MD sent me to a Rheumatologist who pronounced I had "fibromyalgia" the catch-all diagnosis term for 'we don't know what causes your symptoms', but - "here take this Rx and cross your fingers you get relief."

After a considerable amount of time with continuing misery, I had the good fortune to become a patient of a new family practice MD who had just relocated to our area...and she practiced Functional Medicine. Thus, the 20 OH D test with the extremely low levels. After ramping up dosing and testing periodically, I had reached 5,000 daily but wasn't completely free of the muscle fatigue and pain symptoms, so we increased to 10,000 IU daily... until I reached 70 nmol/l To maintain that, I take 10,000 October to April and then drop to 5,000 when we have warm weather and sunshine. (I live in NE Ohio)... so your location may alter your dosing once you become optimized.

Additionally, and this is extremely important....you also need to supplement with Vitamin K2 MK7... that's the form that directs circulating calcium into bones rather than depositing in arteries or making bone spur and it needs to be an amount high enough that will perform that function.

I take (2) Jarrow Formulas, MK-7, Vitamin K2 as MK-7 - 90 mcg/gel cap... when I use the higher 10K dose and then cut back to 1 gel cap with the lower dose of Vitamin D3.

My bone density scans are so good that I can space them out considerably and after the last, I just chose not to continue.
m
In the Dean article you quoted... just ignore the recommendation to take the ReCalcia as supplemental calcium for afibbers is not recommended.

I wish you well with the challenge of increasing your D levels and also hope, if you are symptomatic, you begin to have relief.

Best to you,
Jackie

Jackie,

I don't know if I'm symptomatic or not.....I don't have any bone or muscle pain. No unusual fatigue, but I may not know how tired I "was" until my levels are optimized . .

I've been taking the Vitamin D3 at 5,000 per day for 6-7 weeks. I also take the Jarrow brand. The MK7 is Jarrow and is 90mcg also (sounds like what you have). I take one of each daily. Do you think I should increase to 10,000 of the Vit. D3?

I had the test in mid-Feb I think and the instructions say to test again in 3 months.

Edited to add: I have sat outside for the last couple of days (wasn't sunny enough today). It's finally Spring here (Atlanta area) and I should be able to be out most days. Am I right in thinking the sun exposure will do more to raise my levels? (I still plan on supplementing).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2019 06:47PM by katesshadow.

Quote
katesshadow
Edited to add: I have sat outside for the last couple of days (wasn't sunny enough today). It's finally Spring here (Atlanta area) and I should be able to be out most days. Am I right in thinking the sun exposure will do more to raise my levels? (I still plan on supplementing).

Kate, our doc, Steven Gundry wants our 25OHD level around 100 ng/mL or better (he runs his around 120 ng/mL. I live in the Denver area and supplement with 10,000 IU's D3 winter and summer. When my levels got up around 80, I no longer burned in the sun. I've skied at 12,000' in March with only shorts on, all day without burning. I've been at the beach in San Diego in August, again all day without burning only wearing a swimsuit. I routinely rock climb at 7,000' wearing only shorts, winter or summer. When I went for my annual skin check with my dermatologist (I'm 63 and both parents had basal cell carcinoma), he told me my skin looks fantastic. I told him I do everything his profession says not to do. I spend as much time in the sun as possible with few clothes and no sunscreen. He told me to keep it up. I also think there may be a dietary component.

I will say my 25OHD level does not increase in the summer despite increased UV levels this time of year. I know Dr. Joe Mercola. He takes no supplemental D, but lives near the beach in central FL. He takes hour long mid-day walks on the beach wearing only shorts daily. His 25OHD levels are around 70 mg/dL.

I think Jackie's "70 nmol/l" is probably a typo that should read 70 mg/dL as we normally use these units in the US (70 nmol/L = 28 ng/mL, still way too low).

I'm not saying anybody should do what I do, as it defies convention. I'm just sharing my experience.

I'd like to supplement with D3 but am concerned given my genetic tendency towards I high IC Calcium and low IC Mg levels. I also find Mg supplementation difficult as bowel intolerance arrives very quickly and persistently. I also tend towards high ferritin (200-400 historically). A tricky one!

Quote
GeorgeN

Edited to add: I have sat outside for the last couple of days (wasn't sunny enough today). It's finally Spring here (Atlanta area) and I should be able to be out most days. Am I right in thinking the sun exposure will do more to raise my levels? (I still plan on supplementing).

Kate, our doc, Steven Gundry wants our 25OHD level around 100 ng/mL or better (he runs his around 120 ng/mL. I live in the Denver area and supplement with 10,000 IU's D3 winter and summer. When my levels got up around 80, I no longer burned in the sun. I've skied at 12,000' in March with only shorts on, all day without burning. I've been at the beach in San Diego in August, again all day without burning only wearing a swimsuit. I routinely rock climb at 7,000' wearing only shorts, winter or summer. When I went for my annual skin check with my dermatologist (I'm 63 and both parents had basal cell carcinoma), he told me my skin looks fantastic. I told him I do everything his profession says not to do. I spend as much time in the sun as possible with few clothes and no sunscreen. He told me to keep it up. I also think there may be a dietary component.

I will say my 25OHD level does not increase in the summer despite increased UV levels this time of year. I know Dr. Joe Mercola. He takes no supplemental D, but lives near the beach in central FL. He takes hour long mid-day walks on the beach wearing only shorts daily. His 25OHD levels are around 70 mg/dL.

I think Jackie's "70 nmol/l" is probably a typo that should read 70 mg/dL as we normally use these units in the US (70 nmol/L = 28 ng/mL, still way too low).

I'm not saying anybody should do what I do, as it defies convention. I'm just sharing my experience.

George,
Thank you for sharing your story. Do you and your wife both supplement with the 10,000 per day? I am taking 5,000 per day, which is above the "recommended safe" dosage. Articles I have read talk about Vitamin D toxicity if you go too high. But my level is so low, I wonder if I should be doing to !0,000 per day or would this be trying to cram too much too soon?

I had it tested through Wellnicity. When I received my results, they also offered their vitamin supplements. They aso recommended fish oil - do you? I already had purchased my own Vit D3 and MK7, which I take after breakfast, along with my Magnesium, Taurine and B12. Wondering if I should take with dinner, which is probably my biggest "fat" meal of the day. (Dinner is when I take my BP meds, which I hope to get off of soon.)

Do you know how fast levels can rise by sun exposure? When I was younger, I spent a lot of time in the sun, but now, I just don't make time for it. I see now it should be a priority.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 09:50AM by katesshadow.

Katesshadow,

FYI, in my experience I’ve taken10K IUs of Vitamin D3 a day since 2003 and run around 75ng/ml of 25/OH/D3 very consistently. Quite a few people need at least 10K IU a day to reach ~70ng/ml of blood 25/OH/D3. That’s why regular testing in the early few years, especially, is important. If your levels are very stable for several
years at twice a year testing on whatever dose helps reach these better levels then regular testing at end of summer and end of winter then it usually isn’t needed to continue with twice a year testing, if your levels tend to be stable for those repeated time frames of late summer and later winter testing. Ideally, it’s good to do once a year even with a good quality home self test kit where you do a finger prick blood test and with no need to go to a doc appointment. Or just have the once a year test done with an annual physical with your GP. I do advise making sure your primary physician knows your 25:OH/D3 levels. And this at home finger prick test kits have largely been found to give similar results to a venous blood draw done on the same day.

Shannon

Quote
Shannon
Katesshadow,

FYI, in my experience I’ve taken10K IUs of Vitamin D3 a day since 2003 and run around 75ng/ml of 25/OH/D3 very consistently. Quite a few people need at least 10K IU a day to reach ~70ng/ml of blood 25/OH/D3. That’s why regular testing in the early few years, especially, is important. If your levels are very stable for several
years at twice a year testing on whatever dose helps reach these better levels then regular testing at end of summer and end of winter then it usually isn’t needed to continue with twice a year testing, if your levels tend to be stable for those repeated time frames of late summer and later winter testing. Ideally, it’s good to do once a year even with a good quality home self test kit where you do a finger prick blood test and with no need to go to a doc appointment. Or just have the once a year test done with an annual physical with your GP. I do advise making sure your primary physician knows your 25:OH/D3 levels. And this at home finger prick test kits have largely been found to give similar results to a venous blood draw done on the same day.

Shannon

Shannon, I think you recommended the 10,000 to me before? I just don't want to overload, but you don't seem to think that's an issue. Do I increase the MK7 also (currently taking one daily 90mcg.

Have you heard of/tried Wellnicity? I bought their kit through Amazon. Their test revealed the 11 (25-OH Vitamin D, Total (ng/mL) I'm sure they have standards they have to follow, I was just a little leary because they also sell vitamins which I did not know when I purchased the kit.

I can’t vouch for Wellnicity’s test kit Kateshadow, but so long as you don’t have such similar conditions as Sarcoidosis, Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma, Hyper-calcemia etc. then it’s typically VERY difficult to overdose on Vitamin D3... you would almost need to be trying to OD to get there if you were not prone to spiking on a 25/OD/D3 serum test. from one o there above or similar conditions that bring with them either a contraindication or warning to carefully monitor Vitamin D3 intake.

Confirm with Wellnicity any data they have showing an approximate equivalency between their at home test kit and a traditional venous blood 25/OH/D3 test from a typical blood lab.

That being said, Vitamin D3 requires little to no quess work or uncertainty to verify your are not coming close to over-dosing. Just start with 5,000IU/day ... or even just 1,000IU for the super-duper cautious ... and then test after 3 months of daily dosing when taking the D3 with the largest fat content meal of the day. And if you are still below your target 25/OH/D3 level, then titrate upward a requisite amount and retest in an additional 3 to 6 months and thus gradually confirm how much intake of oral Vitamin D3 you require, through titration up or down, to achieve an approximately stable optimal range on your 25/OH/D3 test.

This is a no-brainer way for even the ultra-cautious to establish an accepted decent range that is true for your body! No if's and's or but's ... and it can be done even without a doctor administering the tests, though I strongly recommend you always share your test results with your GP. The point being, that you can achieve a solid and very safe level through this gradual titration process while perhaps savings some money, and maybe a good deal of time, just to learn what dose it might take to achieve your target safe level of serum 25/OH/D3.

Cheers!
Shannon

Quote
katesshadow

Katesshadow,

FYI, in my experience I’ve taken10K IUs of Vitamin D3 a day since 2003 and run around 75ng/ml of 25/OH/D3 very consistently. Quite a few people need at least 10K IU a day to reach ~70ng/ml of blood 25/OH/D3. That’s why regular testing in the early few years, especially, is important. If your levels are very stable for several
years at twice a year testing on whatever dose helps reach these better levels then regular testing at end of summer and end of winter then it usually isn’t needed to continue with twice a year testing, if your levels tend to be stable for those repeated time frames of late summer and later winter testing. Ideally, it’s good to do once a year even with a good quality home self test kit where you do a finger prick blood test and with no need to go to a doc appointment. Or just have the once a year test done with an annual physical with your GP. I do advise making sure your primary physician knows your 25:OH/D3 levels. And this at home finger prick test kits have largely been found to give similar results to a venous blood draw done on the same day.

Shannon

Shannon, I think you recommended the 10,000 to me before? I just don't want to overload, but you don't seem to think that's an issue. Do I increase the MK7 also (currently taking one daily 90mcg.

Have you heard of/tried Wellnicity? I bought their kit through Amazon. Their test revealed the 11 (25-OH Vitamin D, Total (ng/mL) I'm sure they have standards they have to follow, I was just a little leary because they also sell vitamins which I did not know when I purchased the kit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 02:54PM by Shannon.

Thanks, George, I corrected the typo.
Jackie

I got the following blog from the "Peoples Pharmacy", apparently if you have hyperparathyroidism you can get in trouble taking too much vit. D, of course the blogger took a lot. However, I personally don't like taking vit. D I would rather get it from the sun which I do in the months that I am able to get out and work in my yard and garden. In the winter months I can't do that, I try to eat more fish.


My rheumatologist was alarmed when my Vitamin D result was 9, and she prescribed the 50,000 IU regime for 8 weeks to try to correct this. Unfortunately, this dosage precipitated unbearable pain in my ischial tuberosity that did not allow me to sit or even lie in bed without extreme discomfort. There were nights when I was literally screaming in pain until it resolved. I had weeks of physical therapy, along with very strong pain medications to endure this.

Why did this happen? I apparently have hyperparathyroidism. The body down regulates Vitamin D in this condition to prevent excess calcium being absorbed. Raising my Vitamin D level also raised my calcium levels, causing the pain syndrome.

Why I am so sure it was the Vitamin D supplementation that caused it? Over several months the pain resolved to the point that it was bearable. Then my endocrinologist again tested my Vitamin D and decided to “fix” it. The same 50,000 IU regime was prescribed, and the pain syndrome re-occurred with a vengeance. I would recommend that anyone with very low Vitamin D levels have a parathyroid hormone test before undertaking this kind of supplementation. I was in agony from this error in prescribing and it took almost a year of my life to resolve it.

Quote
mwcf
I'd like to supplement with D3 but am concerned given my genetic tendency towards I high IC Calcium and low IC Mg levels. I also find Mg supplementation difficult as bowel intolerance arrives very quickly and persistently. I also tend towards high ferritin (200-400 historically). A tricky one!

Mike,

Ferritin can either be excess iron or an indicator of inflammation. If it is excess iron, then periodic phlebotomies will solve it. Here is one paper <[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] My friend and heart disease blogger/podcaster, Irish engineer Ivor Cummins <[thefatemperor.com] said that when he started his journey, his ferritin levels (as well as Gamma-glutamyl transpeptidase, GGT,) were significantly elevated. After eliminating a lot of processed food & simple carbs from his diet, these resolved without blood donation. Merely lowering inflammation.

George

Thanks George,

They won't let me donate blood here in the UK as I've a history of AF.

Noted about the inflammation. After having faffed about half-doing the keto, I'm now on it for the last 6 days and am going to keep going.

The Ca issue still remains though, but who knows eliminating carbs might even rebalance that to some small degree.

This keto thing is tough! Even a full large head of broccoli takes me over 20g!

Cheers,

Mike

Recent analysis of RCT trials showed no significant relationship between D levels and afib onset sciencedirect.com

Moreover, the only analysis of excessive D (more than 100 ng/ml) in the literature that I can find showed that it increases risk of afib by factor of 2.5 ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I would be curious what source Gundry is employing to recommend 100 ng/ml and his own 120 ng/ml levels

Quote
safib
Recent analysis of RCT trials showed no significant relationship between D levels and afib onset sciencedirect.com

Moreover, the only analysis of excessive D (more than 100 ng/ml) in the literature that I can find showed that it increases risk of afib by factor of 2.5 ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I would be curious what source Gundry is employing to recommend 100 ng/ml and his own 120 ng/ml levels

From our conversations with him, it is his clinical experience, especially with autoimmune patients. He tests all his patients extensively. Our lab output runs to 25 pages from 5 different lab companies. He tests many cytokines, other inflammatory and autoimmune markers among other things. Personally, I've seen no afib impact, positive or negative, from my D3 intake and level. The most notable thing in my D experience is immunity from sunburn or skin damage (as I posted above, I'm well aware this is against convention and am only reporting my experience, not suggesting others should follow). Eating the way he suggests, the vitamin D, DHA & etc, my labs look excellent and so do my wife's. He looks at his patients as subjects treated individually in an ongoing clinical trial. He prescribes his lifestyle approach generally to all, then modifies suggestions based on testing (including genetics). For example, for those with ApoE4 allele(s), he suggests restricting saturated fat intake from animals and coconut oil as he has observed that in these people the saturated fat will materially increase sdLDL-c and oxLDL.

Plus, THE KEY is that the "high" Vit D levels MUST be combined with a so-called "LOW" Ca intake for successful elimination of ectopics and afib like GeorgeN and myself.

VitD increases Ca absorption from the gut and decreases Ca excretion (along with other effects on Ca homeostasis -- see below). So high VitD with high Ca intake (or for Westerners that means everyone with so-called normal Ca intake) will worsen afib. Hence the increase in afib cited by safib in his reference above -- it is absolutely certain that the subjects in the study made no special effort to reduce their Ca intake, and without looking I don't doubt they were on standard Western diets.

VitD also acts in the very complex Ca homeostasis mechanisms to reduce parathyroid hormone (PTH) secretion, another hormone which increases Ca absorption and decreases Ca excretion. Both VitD and PTH also have several other effects, so the whole mechanism is extremely labyrinthine. However, the science of the following is well known and I have personally observed that high serum VitD consequently results in PTH within the normal range even at very low Ca intake (without high VitD the PTH will become elevated as the body strives to absorb maximum Ca from the reduced supply). The maintenance of PTH within the normal range even at "low" Ca intake is also strong indication that one is obtaining sufficient Ca even at supposedly very low intakes like 300mg/day [in reality what two thirds of the world's population gets and what ALL our ancestors got for millions of years in the total absence of dairy foods until 5,000 years ago (~1,000 years relatively abundant)] as long as one has so-called high levels of serum VitD.

Again, in reality, so-called "high" levels of serum VitD -- like about 70 ng/ml or 165 nmol/L -- turn out to be just the perfectly normal serum levels for anyone heavily sun-exposed (like ALL our ancestors for millions of years) and for all closely related species. There is a massive amount of easy to find scientific literature on this subject.

So, in a nutshell, extremely beneficial effects on afib and ectopics can be obtained by PLAF sufferers by simply adhering to the same Ca intakes and serum VitD levels that our ancestors had for millions of years. But that means that a so-called "low" Ca intake MUST be employed with the "high" VitD levels, otherwise the result is counterproductive!

Makes sense SteveCarr - thanks for your views.

Quote
safib
Recent analysis of RCT trials showed no significant relationship between D levels and afib onset sciencedirect.com

Moreover, the only analysis of excessive D (more than 100 ng/ml) in the literature that I can find showed that it increases risk of afib by factor of 2.5 ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I would be curious what source Gundry is employing to recommend 100 ng/ml and his own 120 ng/ml levels

I looked at the results of the study cited and Table 1 showed that of the 3,395 participants, 263 individuals had 'AF incidence," and of those, over half (167) were considered Vitamin D deficient according to the studies criteria (<50nmol/l).

BUT, also, the numbers were also much higher in the female, low education, smoking, high blood pressure, Presence of DM, CVD & CKD, use of lipids lowering medication and Hypercalcaemia.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2019 09:37AM by katesshadow.

Quote
SteveCarr
Plus, THE KEY is that the "high" Vit D levels MUST be combined with a so-called "LOW" Ca intake for successful elimination of ectopics and afib like GeorgeN and myself.

VitD increases Ca absorption from the gut and decreases Ca excretion (along with other effects on Ca homeostasis -- see below). So high VitD with high Ca intake (or for Westerners that means everyone with so-called normal Ca intake) will worsen afib. Hence the increase in afib cited by safib in his reference above -- it is absolutely certain that the subjects in the study made no special effort to reduce their Ca intake, and without looking I don't doubt they were on standard Western diets.

VitD also acts in the very complex Ca homeostasis mechanisms to reduce parathyroid hormone (PTH) secretion, another hormone which increases Ca absorption and decreases Ca excretion. Both VitD and PTH also have several other effects, so the whole mechanism is extremely labyrinthine. However, the science of the following is well known and I have personally observed that high serum VitD consequently results in PTH within the normal range even at very low Ca intake (without high VitD the PTH will become elevated as the body strives to absorb maximum Ca from the reduced supply). The maintenance of PTH within the normal range even at "low" Ca intake is also strong indication that one is obtaining sufficient Ca even at supposedly very low intakes like 300mg/day as long as one has so-called high levels of serum VitD.

Again, in reality, so-called "high" levels of serum VitD -- like about 70 ng/ml or 165 nmol/L -- turn out to be just the perfectly normal serum levels for anyone heavily sun-exposed (like ALL our ancestors for millions of years) and for all closely related species. There is a massive amount of easy to find scientific literature on this subject.

So, in a nutshell, extremely beneficial effects on afib and ectopics can be obtained by PLAF sufferers by simply adhering to the same Ca intakes and serum VitD levels that our ancestors had for millions of years. But that means that a so-called "low" Ca intake MUST be employed with the "high" VitD levels, otherwise the result is counterproductive!

I had my Vitamin D tested as a result of your earlier posts on Vitamin D/Calcium (that was in response to my post about my low calcium levels). It was found to be 11 - extremely deficient. I have since been supplementing with Vit D and when the weather permits, spending more time in the sun. While I certainly hope it has a positive effect on my Afib (eliminating it , I do know that level is not healthy and I need to do something about it with or without Afib.

I know there are some people who think that those who think they can "cure" their Afib by working on their electrolytes (magnesium, potassium, etc.) are wasting their time and I've seen posts where they say no one has been successful. I know that we are all different and there are many causes of Afib but Dr. Dean asserts that Afib can be cured with magnesium supplementation. Your thoughts?

Well very interesting, I have looked back at some of my lab work and mostly my Vit. D levels have run around 35 to 55, my Cal. has always run about the same 9.5 with lab values being 8.6 to 10.4 (I do not take any CA. supplements or very much dairy) but I have had my Parathyroid hormone running usually a little on the high side 56 with lab values 14 - 64, I have had it running a little higher sometimes.

I get very few palps which I attribute to my taking Magnesium not Vit.D, before taking Mag. I did have palps. I live in a Northern climate, in the months that I can be outside in the sun I am, that is where I get my Vit. D., I wouldn't take mega doses of Vit. D.

Liz

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Elizabeth
my Cal. has always run about the same 9.5 with lab values being 8.6 to 10.4

The body tries to keep serum levels of Ca (and Mg) constant, so would not expect a change unless something dramatic was going on. In other words serum levels of these is not a sensitive marker.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2019 08:52PM by GeorgeN.

Cal. test must have some importance or why take it:

Purpose of the Calcium Tests

Calcium:
•To evaluate calcium metabolism and parathyroid function
•To aid in the diagnosis of neuromuscular, skeletal, and endocrine disorders, arrhythmias, blood clotting dysfunction, and acid-base imbalance in the blood
•To help diagnose and evaluate a number of conditions that affect the bones, heart, nerves, kidneys, and teeth
•To monitor people with chronic renal failure, hyperparathyroidism, and certain types of malignancies

[www.healthcommunities.com]

I agree with the benefits of vitamin D but not necessarily with supplementing methods. Getting direct sunlight is needed for survival which even death row inmates are allowed an hour a day of direct sunlight. This means at least 30% of your body is exposed to sunlight between 10am-2pm at least 30 minutes to minimize chances of skin cancer.

Supplementing with Vitamin D in higher dosages is a risky strategy that leads to more problems than solutions. In fact, my pacs started initially due to being on high dosages of vitamin D3 prescribed by GP. Then I realized it was depleting my magnesium and elevating my calcium absorption leading to more pacs. An interesting fact is that your body gets rid of it within two weeks unless you get sun exposure. So my journey began into seeking answers to balancing magnesium, potassium, calcium, vitamin D and bloating which turned out to be H. Pylori and poor stomach absorption.

Anyway there’s a lot of data out there against supplementing with vitamin D3 and I agree with it. I found this one quite interesting.

[gettingstronger.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2019 05:04PM by johnnyS.

Katesshadow,

"I know there are some people who think that those who think they can "cure" their Afib by working on their electrolytes (magnesium, potassium, etc.) are wasting their time and I've seen posts where they say no one has been successful. I know that we are all different and there are many causes of Afib but Dr. Dean asserts that Afib can be cured with magnesium supplementation. Your thoughts?"

Definitely not wasting time. Both GeorgeN and myself have it utterly in remission (whether you'd call that cured is a personal choice -- tho in my case I'd only get it back by consuming what I now realise are totally unnatural quantities of Ca compared to what humans all consumed for millions of years, so since that to my mind would actually just be getting sick by poisoning myself, I'm perfectly happy to think that living in what I now perceive to be the "natural" situation means that I am indeed "cured").

Your second point: Dr Dean asserts to use Mg (and so do others, including GeorgeN). Well, all I can say is that in my case I have found Mg to be a minor or "shadow" player -- and that presumably because of its secondary role in the Ca homeostasis mechanism. I hugely believe that it is Ca dysregulation that is the main player, but because the "fix" is to take Ca out of the diet and because that is more complex than chucking things "in", most sufferers never get around to making a wholehearted effort to test lower Ca intake and high serum VitD. (It does however make sense, even from a high-school chemistry point of view, that chucking in Mg would have some minor effect in the same direction as taking Ca out). What GeorgeN and I both have in common are high serum VitD levels (70 ng/ml or 165 nmol/L in my case, higher for George), and low-ish Ca intakes (<500 g/day I think for GeorgeN, and ~300g/day for me), and I believe this to be the crux of the matter. [I personally actually think it very likely that GeorgeN would find he didn't need the Mg at 300g/day of Ca, and I've never read that he has tested that, but I totally understand why he wouldn't want to, and in his position I probably wouldn't either -- after all, it is always possible that any next AF attack could have severe consequences, so why depart from anything that works.]

Elizabeth,

"I wouldn't take mega doses of Vit. D. "

You are being merely misled by the "units illusion". I mean, if I said you were going down the highway at 100,000 metres per hour would you think that was terrifyingly fast? The answer is either "Yes", because one doesn't know anything about the units but it sounds like it must be fast, or "No", because one realises that it is about 65mph. Well in the case of VitD the situation is even much worse. GeorgeN's daily dose is 10,000 "International Units, IU", and mine is 5,000. Might sound like a lot. But the very fact that they're called "International Units, IU" particularly gives the game away -- it means they are some totally arbitrary unit that was merely mutually agreed at some international booze-up! That day, they could just as happily, just as arbitrarily, and just as effectively decided that the international unit would be 5,000 times larger. Then George would be taking 2 iu per day, and I'd be taking 1iu per day. Still sound like a megadose??

The truth is that you could consume my dose of VitD by consuming 500g of various fish or mushrooms, and slightly larger quantities of various others -- things we undoubtedly did in nature for millions of years. Even more to the point, one can get 20,000iu (something like that : can't be bothered checking) in a single solar session. So these definitely aren't "megadoses".

More relevant is that it is always possible that there may be other, as yet unrecognised, benefits from solar exposure. Both GeorgeN (apparently), and myself, ensure we receive enough to cover that eventuality.

johhnyS:

If you can stabilise your serum VitD around 70 ng/ml or 165 nmol/L with sunlight alone, then that's obviously fine for the purposes of then testing low Ca intake to see if it reduces ectopics. But if you can't stabilise the serum Vit D near that level (and it takes a reasonable chunk of the week to do it with sun alone) then you're selling yourself short by not at least testing those serum levels (via supplementation) and low Ca intake to see what you can achieve. After all, AF is serious, and any adverse outcomes from VitD supplementation up to the natural solar-saturation level (70 ng/ml or 165 nmol/L) are purely theoretical, especially with reduced Ca intake.

SteveCarr:

"I hugely believe that it is Ca dysregulation that is the main player."

So do I - at least where I'm concerned.

Question is - is 300mg/day enough for overall health in all other respects??

About 1.5 year ago, I noticed a sure trigger for my afib was eating two slices of bread with Dutch Gouda cheese and an instant soup. It's high in Ca and MSG! I fully avoid MSG, but reducing this kind of cheese is a torture. I think it contains about 1g Ca/100g.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2019 03:04PM by Pompon.

Thanks for the response SteveCarr.

Question for you and George - do y'all take AC's or daily aspirin?

Steve Carr:

5,000 IU = 125mcg., 10,000 IU = 70ng/ml , so what, it is a measurement, I take 125 mcg. of a thyroid hormone doesn't sound like much but double that could kill me. Too much of a good thing is not always beneficial.

Check this out from the Peoples Pharmacy website:




Is Sunshine the Best Source for Vitamin D?

Vitamin D has long been known as the sunshine vitamin because skin creates this hormone when exposed to ultraviolet light. However, winter in northern latitudes does not allow much vitamin D to be created. Research indicates that adequate vitamin D may improve the outcomes of assisted reproduction (Gaskins et al, American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, online Feb. 8, 2019). Some evidence suggests that vitamin D supplements may also help reduce migraine frequency (Wells et al, Current Pain and Headache Reports, Feb. 21, 2019). On the other hand, the VITAL trial showed that vitamin D did not reduce cardiovascular disease or cancer. Consequently, many people wonder about the most appropriate dose and the best source for vitamin D. Is Sunshine Really the Best Source for Vitamin D? Q. When you think about supplementing vitamin D, your first choice should be sunshine, the most natural source. Vitamin D by itself doesn’t work; calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and iron are also necessary, along with vitamins A and K. A. We love sunshine as a source of vitamin D, but there are circumstances when sun exposure isn’t practical. During the winter in most of the northern states, it is too cold and there isn’t enough sun to get vitamin D from sunshine on the skin. Even in the summertime, some people take medications that make them susceptible to sunburn. People with skin cancer must use sunscreens. They block vitamin D formation. There is still room for vitamin D supplements. Other Supplements That Affect Vitamin D: We think it does make sense to check your intake of magnesium as well as vitamin D. Additionally, some scientists propose that vitamin K2 is also important in the metabolism of vitamin D (Schwalfenberg, Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism, June 18, 2017). While we need vitamin D to absorb calcium well, we need vitamin K to get calcium into bones and keep it out of artery walls (Karpinski et al, Journal of the American College of Nutrition, July 2017).


Is Vitamin D3 Really a Mouse and Rat Poison?

Vitamin D3 is one of the most popular vitamins in the pharmacy these days. That’s because a lot of people are low in vitamin D. Vitamin D3 is often considered to be the best supplement to replenish low nutrient levels. But did you know that too much vitamin D3 can pose problems? Until we received this question, we had not realized vitamin D3 had been used as a mouse and rat poison! D-Con and Vitamin D3: Q. I had a little mouse problem, so I went to buy some mouse poison. The first brand I bought turned out to contain a nerve toxin. I didn’t want to mess with that, so I returned it and searched for D-Con. I’d always heard D-Con used a potent blood thinner called warfarin. I was surprised to find that D-Con now contains cholecalciferol, Vitamin D3, instead. How does that work? What’s in Mouse and Rat Poison? A. Many rodenticides (mouse and rat poison) used to contain anticoagulants like warfarin. This drug works by causing internal bleeding. Warfarin is still used in human medicine in carefully monitored doses to prevent blood clots. While some rodenticides may still contain warfarin, there are now other options. Bromethalin is a neurotoxin that leads to paralysis. This chemical can be very dangerous for pets. Cats may be especially vulnerable to bromethalin. Anyone who uses a mouse and rat poison must pet proof the house! Vitamin D3 as a Mouse and Rat Poison Cholecalciferol (vitamin D3) has been used for decades. It is considered a safe dietary supplement for humans. At high doses this hormone causes blood calcium to rise to toxic levels. This in turn leads to kidney damage, bleeding and heart problems. This mouse and rat poison is also toxic to pets and must be kept well out of their reach. As with all poisons, the dose is critical. That is why the tolerable upper limit is set at 4,000 IUs for adult humans. Some people believe that if a little is good then a lot is better. Anyone who uses a lot more than 4,000 IU daily should monitor blood levels of Cal.

Liz

Quote
katesshadow
Thanks for the response SteveCarr.

Question for you and George - do y'all take AC's or daily aspirin?

No OAC's. My CHA₂DS₂-VASc score is 0, any episodes are usually <2 hours, episode frequency is every 6 to 24 months and AF burden is < 0.01%. 14.5 years ago, when I had a 2.5 month episode I was put on warfarin until 3 weeks (as I recall) after the episode terminated. I have taken 83 mg/aspirin/day at some times as my doc, Steve Gundry) says it activates the anti inflammatory properties (resolvins in EPA & DHA) of the fish oil I take. Recently he suggested reducing this to 2/week as this was sufficient for the purpose. He did not suggest it for afib purposes.

[endocrinediseases.org]


helps the intestines absorb calcium. However, the vitamin D must first be activated or "turned on" by parathyroid hormone (PTH). Once activated, vitamin D acts to greatly increase the amount of calcium that the intestines can absorb from food, sometimes by as much as two to four times. The body can either make its own vitamin D using a process that requires sunlight or obtain vitamin D directly from the diet (e.g. in fortified milk or vitamins). Many people across the world have vitamin D deficiency — experts estimate that one-third of Americans are vitamin D deficient.

with vitamin D deficiency, it is difficult for the body to obtain calcium from the diet. This often leads to a rise in the PTH level, since the parathyroid glands must increase the PTH production in order to increase calcium levels by "stealing" it from the bones. Therefore, people with a normal blood calcium levels and a high PTH level may have secondary hyperparathyroidism(see Special Cases: Secondary Hyperparathyroidism), which means that the high PTH level is a normal response of healthy parathyroids glands to another problem (like vitamin D deficiency, kidney failure.

Does this say that Vit. D increases the amount of Cal. in your body, if you are taking a lot of Vit. D you will have more Cal. I realize that taking Vit. K puts the cal. back into the bones, hope so. But, if you are trying not to have a lot of Cal. in your body then it seems you shouldn't be taking a lot of Vit. D. If this isn't correct, please explain it.

Liz

mwcf:

Some reasons for believing 300mg of Ca/day certainly is enough for overall health fall into at least the following four categories (more info on my website: https://www.carrafibdietinfo.com).

1) The fact that it is a typical intake in most non-Western parts of the world – places with much lower rates of osteoporosis (and, previously, much lower rates of cardiovascular diseases) -- although that is changing as Western diets are adopted (and note that virtually all cardiovascular disease reflects at least a component of calcification).

2) The fact that all Western peoples' ancestors, until the advent of dairying 5000 years ago, also had daily Ca intakes like this. It is basically impossible to have a much higher intake, without dairy foods, unless one deliberately consumes limestone, dolomite, shell or bone. I’m familiar with a great deal of ethnographic and anthropological literature, and never have I read of such things being significant components of anyone's diet. Even those who specialised in extracting bone marrow, rejected the bone! (BTW, even in the minority fraction of the world's population that employed dairy in its diet, it only became very widespread, or available in much quantity, more like 1,000 years ago -- hence the still-remaining prevalence of lactose intolerance etc!)

3) At the serum VitD levels typical of those hunter-gatherer and outdoor-worker ancestors (again, 99.9% of our ancestors before about 1900), Ca absorption is higher, so much less intake is required.

4) If one is not getting enough Ca, one’s PTH will become elevated (in an effort to absorb more). So just check your PTH! I have done so repeatedly, and at hunter-gatherer/outdoor-worker/solar-saturation VitD levels (70 ng/ml or 165 nmol/L) my PTH is always in normal range even at 300mg/day Ca intake.


Pompon:

Yes, indeed, exactly. I remember the same. Now I can get away with any single Ca dose like that (presumably it takes the complex Ca homeostasis mechanism a couple of days to be thrown out of whack), but that is because my ongoing Ca intake is 300mg/day and my serum Ca is always pinned like a rock exactly and beautifully to the midrange point.


Katesshadow:

No; zero medication taken.


Elizabeth:

Your own last post contains the important rudiments of the Ca homeostasis mechanism. 300mg Ca/day can’t be both too little and too much (the worry in your last post). No, the point, as the material you posted highlights, is that at hunter-gatherer/outdoor-worker/solar-saturation VitD levels (70mg/ml or 165 nmol/L), you will absorb more Ca, so you need less intake. And 300 mg/day, also what was normal virtually throughout human history, is ideal, and the two levels (VitD as above and 300 mg/day Ca) result in excellent serum PTH levels, indicating ideal VitD and Ca intakes. The concerns you are trying to raise are not irrelevant, but they apply to HIGHER Ca intakes and/or LOWER serum VitD levels (as well as conceivably, but as yet without any reported research evidence, to HIGHER VitD levels than that specified).


Unfortunately, I won’t have time at present to correspond further on these interesting matters. There’s more info on my website https://www.carrafibdietinfo.com. But basically, it works brilliantly for me, and I'm super comfortable with it because EVERY aspect of what I consume fits very closely to all aspects of diets and VitD levels that 99.9% of all humans experienced for millions of years.

Ok, I had blood work done last week and got the results today---my Vit. D is 37, my parathyroid is alright, Cal. ok. I know my Vit. D is low, hopefully I will be able to get outside and we will have sun to get my Vit. D up. But, the low Vit. D isn't effecting my Parathyroid as said here.

Liz