24 years ago the stage was set for AF cure. What took so long?

1991: Pathological hypertrophy and cardiac interstitium. Fibrosis and renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. [circ.ahajournals.org]
Karl T. Weber, MD, and Christian G. Brilla, MD, PhD
Division of Cardiology, University of Missouri-Columbia, Columbia MO.
Circulation. 1991; 83: 1849-1865 doi: 10.1161/01.CIR.83.6.1849

From Abstract: The stage is set to prevent myocardial fibrosis as well as to reverse it.

2015: Magnesium, enzymes: Preventing and Reversing Atrial Fibrillation
[www.afibbers.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2015 10:36PM by Moerk.

Mørk,

I wouldn't go as far as saying "cure," but (magnesium intake to bowel tolerance - 3-4.5g/day) has kept me in remission for 10 1/2 years. Same is true for Erling, the creator of "Waller Water," magnesium bicarbonate water <[www.afibbers.org] .

However, I also know this won't work for all. It is worth trying but it depends on your genes and circumstance whether in fact it is a "cure."

George

George,

Based on your experience with this forum and generally the issue at hand, what would you estimate the fraction who have been in remission for a period exceeding say 5 years among those who have tried magnesium supplementation? Anyone else care to weigh in? I understand the view that every case is individual and a sample of one can be significant, but I am curious nonetheless.

Paul

Paul,

I'd guess the percentage is small, though hard to tell. Some people may lurk, try and never comment either way. I know some, like PeggyM, where it isn't perfect, but has worked well enough for 11+ years. She used to tag everybody who posted with a (mostly) non-drug approach that worked with "The List" so she could search and go back and find the posts. I'd tag some, too. In '07, she compiled a number of these n=1 stories here: <[www.afibbers.org]

I was highly motivated. My first thought was to create a hardware/software solution to predict the onset of afib, even by a few minutes, so I could take a med to ward it off. I'm not sure this is possible. I did work on it. My electrolyte solution is easier and less complicated. I mention this only to show just how motivated I was. When I joined in '04, I read almost every prior post looking for anything from the medical literature or n=1 stories that might point me in the right direction. At the time I started, the "standard" magnesium, potassium & tarurine were not "standard." They were part of a very long list.

I do know there are some, including Hans, Pat Chambers (MD aka PC), Jackie & Shannon who tried mightily and failed to achieve success without ablation. Though they would all tell you that that the nutritional/electrolyte approach had benefits, just not enough to be truly successful.

George

Hi Mork,

While I've been all for improving diet and IC magnesium, potassium and other key nutrient supplemental protocols for ages , as everyone here who has followed the forum for years knows, neverhness your statement above that removing excess fibrosis can 'cure' AFIB is a highly speculative conjecture.

There is a big gulf between limited animal studies and biochemical/ physiological investigations that show promising associations, and declaring a flat out clinical 'Cure' in humans... And not all cases of even longer standing AFIB are found to have appreciable levels of fibrotic changes in all such patients to begin with. Even when using the gold standard CARTO -3D ELectro-anatomical mapping system to examine and define amount of atrial scarring and fibrotic atrial changes during ablation procedures some afibbers have little to no notable fibrotic changes and yet still
Have rocking and rolling AFIB to the point where they have made to an ablationists table seeking relief... And quite a large number even after having adopted long term dedicated magnesium and potassium intake protocols and followed them religiously.

Without a doubt, fibrotic changes play a big part in AFIB progression, especially toward persistent AFIB when changes in non-PV atrial substrate areas tend to dominate as triggering areas over the PVs which are most often the major source of AFIB in earlier paroxysmal stages of the disease... Though there are exceptions.

The point being, AFIB is not such a simple equation that just bombing it with enough magnesium of the right amount and kind will effect a universal 'cure' for the condition, as a majority of those for our site have discovered over many years too.


There are some great success stories with the mag and K along with some other dietary changes and I too was one of those stories for 5 full years at one point before AFIB returned with a vengeance and turned to highly aggressive persistent AF inspire of me redoubling all the already heroic levels of Mag repletion with Weekly IV and daily IM Mag Sulfate injections, oral magnesium and topical magnesium ... Literally bathing in the stuff inside and out ... And still my heat was rocking along at 145bpm non stop during the last few months prior to my index ablation.

I am happy as a clam for you and everyone else who has discovered, either by other means or from our 16 years of advocacy for just the kind of focus on targeted ionic repletion as you point to, as often a key step toward successful management of the condition. More so than any other AFIB focussed site on the web we have consistently supported and investigated the wisdom of doing so over a long time frame.

There is no doubt in my mind that proper magnesium repletion in those who are deficient which includes the vast majority of afibbers, is a vital step in ongoing care and in so often helping in achieving a quieter heart.

But the 'cure' claims we get from time to time from what amounts to a small modest group of folks through the years who claim real success long term from their use of these protocols alone, I can certainly appreciate the enthusiasm from which such statement and convictions arise, and for some it is more or less functionally very much like a cure.

But I'm with George and many others here who see the distinction between a job well done in making the real effort to improve ones health and magnesium status, as an afibbers, as a great good fortune too in which fortune clearly favors the prepared, but hardly a real stand alone cure. Not when so very many have tried very hard applying all
the protocols and ideas and often with Initial long term success, only to still then need an expert ablation process to seal the deal.

I hope too that you continue to have such good success, an you well may. But It seems more appropriate from all that we know to label this as a successful management effort Over the last ..... (Plug in the number) ... of years, rather than pronounce a cure based on a theory of fibrotic elimination as if magnesium has been proven to eliminate all forms and degree of scarring or fibrosis from human atrial cardiac tissue, which it has not been shown to do at this stage to my knowledge. Nor has elimination of atrial fibrosis been shown to bring about a definitive cure of AFIB either, by whatever means it is achieved.

Certainly, it is safe to say from the literature, and what we know clinically, that minimizing or reversing fibrotic build up in the atria is a good thing and can very much help contribute to a quiet more flexible atrial substrate... But making it the prime cause and eliminitiin of it the prime cure for AFIB is definitely overstating the case at this point of medical knowledge about this very complex and multi-faceted condition.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2015 05:41PM by Shannon.

I don't know. In my book, "remission" means I don't have afib episodes and have no issues. "Cure" means I can quit taking my electrolytes and afib will not reoccur. By my definition, I'm in remission. In the last twenty five months, I've had one afib episode lasting 1 hour 15 minutes. I can do whatever I want, except I refrain from all day (12 + hours), max heart rate endurance exercise. This does not preclude days of skiing 40,000-54,000' vertical off piste on the steeps, which I've done numerous times this winter, including 3 days in a week ending on May 25. Early on, after two years of no afib, I tried quitting all electrolytes. Afib was an unwelcome visitor in less that 48 hours. For those who are not familiar, my first 4 months of afib (11 years ago), I was in afib 57% of the time, including one episode lasting 2 1/2 months. Going from that to an hour & 15 minutes in two years is good and I feel very blessed to have worked it out. What is happening at a cellular level, I can't say.

Moerk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By science logic, AF remission, rather than cure,
> is from excessive atrial necrosis which is
> not consideres\d reversible.


Can you rephrase this?
Are you saying that AF is caused by Atrial Necrosis, and that is not supposed to be reverseable?

That typical Dr. Dogma about AF being a progressive disease that is not reversable, is based on the average elderly patient, as most studies are done on patients over 70. That's my opinion after studying the condition, and listening and reading all the Dr. BS about having to be on AAM or getting Ablation(s) to be free a AF. I went from Permanent AF (EF of 20%) to Persistent AF, to Paroximal AF, to NSR for 15 months now (EF of 71%), and I'm not taking a damn thing other than 400mg of Mg, and "Waller Mg Water". Not saying is was easy, as I didn't get serious about the MG supplementation until the last 2 years. This has taken 5 years for this play out with multiple ECV's to maintain NSR as much as possible, but if the condition is not reversable, than I am a "Medical Anomely" as put by several of my Creepy EP's who's advice I proved most certainly wrong. From what I can tell the adage of AFIB begets AFIB, and NSR begets NSR is true. Not saying I'm 100% cured but living normally and staying in NSR, with just mild PAC's is certainly good enough for me.

I'll weigh in on the progress I made long ago. When I found this forum, I had already been an afibber for about 6 years. As is typical... one or two events a year and then progressing to every other month or so. (Took Betapace initially. Did nothing; changed cardiologists and got flecainide which did work for quite a while. )

I found the forum and became acquainted with the natural approaches that doctors don't offer. That's when I learned about the importance of pushing to optimize magnesium and began that... although in hindsight... didn't push nearly enough or long enough or combine the other essential supportive nutrients that are common knowledge now... nor was I also focusing on the importance of potassium.

Once I really pushed the electrolytes, I did go from daily AF events lasting 24 - 27 hours; NSR for 4 hours and then back into AF again for another session, to zero events so I know it can be done. I just didn't wait a long enough time in that 'holding' pattern which was only about 3 - 4 months (if memory serves) and I went ahead with the ablation which was scheduled 6 months prior. Back then, the wait was much longer than it is today. I chose to do that because my really great insurance was rumored to be cancelled by a corporate change...and I didn't want to lose out on the chance to go to Dr. Natale when he was here at the Cleveland Clinic (Ohio). Knew I couldn't pay out of pocket, so... I went for it. But I had successfully reversed the daily AF trend to zero events for those last months prior to the procedure. I did entertain the thought about postponing it and rolling the dice with the insurance; but chickened out. NSR was such bliss.

That was 2003. The ablation was successful and recovery quick and easy. I had one breakthrough at 103 days which required ECV and then nothing after that until years 4, 5 and 6 which were minor breakthroughs.... undoubtedly because I became complacent about magnesium and potassium intake optimizing. Then, nothing in the way of AF until the summer of 2013 when my labs showed I had Lyme infection. (Turns out that was not correct) but too late... the treatment caused a lot of irritation/inflammation in my heart and I was in and out of AF and A-flutter to the point that I was going weekly for ECV... so I flew to Austin in August 2014 to have the second ablation which involved the LAA isolation... followed by this last touch up April 2015.

I am totally convinced that magnesium deficiency (along with failure in an aging body to fully assimilate and utilize all that I take in daily) lies at the core cause... supported by my Exatest results indicating that even though in the normal range, the numbers were at the very lowest levels. My FM MD suspects that it's a kidney problem that allows some wasting of the essential electrolytes. So with that in mind, I've continued to push the daily intake of Mg, K and the other components making up The Strategy plus always maintaining an alkaline pH to insure optimal cellular voltage and electrical conduction.

The only drug I use is the requisite Eliquis which has for me, a lot of nasty side effects, but soon hope to be free of that as well.

I'm anxious to be able to use again generous doses of Cardiokinase and proteolytic enzymes to help keep fibrosis levels at bay. Plus, I'll never slack off on optimizing magnesium. I'm finding the powdered magnesium bisglycinate easier to take than so many pills and focusing on both supplemental and food forms of potassium.

Jackie

Age 79 - Onset of AF at age 59
Ablation #1 2003
Ablation #2 2014
Ablation #3 2015

Jackie, you mention use of proteolytic enzymes, to augment those produced internally? Can you recommend a specific enzyme(s) to take for removing excessive collagen fibers (fibrosis) from the atria? Thank you.

Jackie, what brand powdered magnesium do you use? I have used Dr.'s Best tablets for quite awhile. I would like to use a powdered form too. Thank you, Lyndae

Hello Antifib . I am excerpting some material from your post because i think these parts of it deserve extra emphasis. Here goes:
" I went from Permanent AF (EF of 20%) to Persistent AF, to Paroximal AF, to NSR for 15 months now (EF of 71%), and I'm not taking a damn thing other than 400mg of Mg, and "Waller Mg Water"....I didn't get serious about the MG supplementation until the last 2...if the condition is not reversable, than I am a "Medical Anomely" as put by several of my Creepy EP's ..."

Antifib, if you are a medical anomaly, then every List member is also, so you have a lot of company. In Conf. Rm. Proc. session 61 you will find the no-more-afib accounts of 50 people with similar anomalies. Each of these worthies has described as exactly as they were able, just what they did to achieve this much happier state. All have given brand names, dosage, and timing of whatever supplements they used and have described whatever dietary changes they made. All of them posted here with the intent of telling the rest of us what they did that worked. Some of these people are still posting here and may be questioned to your heart's content. Of the people who have stopped haunting this site, many had working email addresses at that time, and surely some could still be reached at those same addresses if somebody wanted to go to the trouble of attempting contact.

Jackie, you mention unpleasant side effects from eliquis. Please, would you describe those so i can tell what to watch out for? If i am getting any side effects from eliquis then i am not able to recognize them.

Other than those remarks, i notice that several people have commented that for them, afib certainly seems reversible. I have long ago noticed that those who just do whatever the first doctors they saw recommended do clearly and steadily deteriorate. But those of us who genuinely give keen attention to maximizing electrolyte levels do not seem to be doing that. I wonder if we will ever see doctors convinced that afib is, for some at least, reversible? And issuing instructions about reversing it by replacing the mineral nutrition needed by the body for optimum functioning?

About a cure consisting of being able to discontinue electrolyte supplementation, does that mean that scurvy is not cured unless one is able to discontinue intake of vitamin C-containing foods? George?

PeggyM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2015 05:46AM by PeggyM.

Imann: I certainly can't answer for Jackie. I have taken LEF's Neuro-Mag poweder for about two years now upon recommendation of my functional medicine MD. I mix it with some other powders to reduce the number of pills I have to pop a couple of times a day.

Gordon

[www.lifeextension.com]

Gordon, many thanks for sharing your magnesium supplement brand. I will look into it. Thanks again

Hi Lynda - Yes... Healthy Origins.. I love the convenience of the powder. I started with a professional brand from ProThera through my doctor's office and then found Healthy Origins at Pure Formulations online.

[www.pureformulas.com]

or iHerb [www.iherb.com]

Jackie

Peggy - yes... I'll post the Eliquis observations/side effects in a separate thread... soon.

Jackie

On the fibrosis....

Response - (Part 1) … Let’s review the initial posting on the topic of Cardiac Fibrosis in Conference Room Session 24 dated Feb 2004.. I’ll continue in an additional segment as Part 2 soon... regarding which remedial enzymes are found to be effective in reversing fibrosis. This would be not only for the heart but throughout the body wherever fibrosis becomes a problem.

Jackie

Fibrosis is the result of inflammation caused by a number of sources. When considering Afib, it’s logical to find fibrosis in the area of the pulmonary veins caused by the obvious effect or impact of just breathing. But in heavy exercisers or endurance athletes, the result of the added oxidative stress factor referenced as ROS (reactive oxygen species) becomes a serious problem.

Following is the Introduction of CR 24 as incentive to continue reading the whole report especially the sections about using proteolytic enzymes to break down fibrotic tissue in the heart and elsewhere in the body. [www.afibbers.org] and then follow that with the much later report... CR 75 from 2012 [www.afibbers.org]


Cardiac Fibrotic Remodeling – The Role of Fibrosis in LAF

INTRODUCTION
Atrial fibrosis – is it simply the result of AF which then causes more episodes or might it be that fibrotic remodeling as a
result of aging leads to AF?

Or is the natural decline of fibrolytic enzymes at fault? Further, might we consider the oxidative stress connection? And
let’s also examine the evidence suggesting the pro-fibrotic effects of magnesium deficiency.

These questions were posed to me by Erling Waller ex-afibber (75) who thinks there may be a connection. His afib
began at 64 and then 10 years later, after some nutritional adjustments, his AF vanished. (See his story in Hans’ book.)
Erling has been a regular and prolific contributor of important information and was always generous with his time and
support to help others seeking answers. He continues to ponder the origin of AF and finds the fibrosis remodeling
connection not only intriguing but also plausible. Erling is tackling another remodeling project at the moment and asked
me to present this topic to the BB.

Interrelated factors in the “Fibrotic Remodeling Theory”
I. Fibrosis mechanism
II. Mechanisms of AF
III. Inflammation and C-reactive Protein
IV. Oxidative Stress and Nitric Oxide/Peroxynitrite production
V. Magnesium deficiency

BACKGROUND
First, you must go to this site and view the color photo of a fibrotic heart and the quick time video of electrically-
stimulated cardiac myocyte contracting. Keep the image of this heart in your memory as you consider fibrosis as a
connection to AF. [www.clevelandclinic.org] (URL no longer functional)

This paper published by the CCF, states that atrial fibrosis is simply the result of atrial fibrillation (AF). Author and
researcher David Van Wagoner, PhD, bases his conclusion on research studies. (1)
Let’s begin –

I. FIBROSIS
The body’s natural scar formation or healing defense-mechanism. When functioning optimally, and in response to
injury, too much reparative fibrin is always laid down and then lysed (broken down) by fibrolytic enzymes; then
removed from the body via the circulatory system.

Research shows that around age 27, the body begins to build fibrotic tissue because of a decline in fibrolytic enzymes
production. In atrial fibrillation, this could explain why younger people are frequently affected and also why the general
age group for the onset of AF seems to be around the age of 60 years. Some individuals lack fibrolytic enzyme
production ability at earlier ages than others. (Biochemical individuality.)

A logical discussion on the role of fibrosis – in terms of our causative investigation – comes from William Wong PhD, a
Classical Naturopath, Exercise Physiologist, Certified Athletic Trainer (AATA), Certified Sports Medicine Trainer
(ASMA) in his article, “ Fibrosis - Enemy of Life.” (2) He says:

“In all of us as we age ( after 27), fibrosis grows inside of all of our internal organs diminishing their size and with that
shrinkage comes a diminution of function. Med school anatomy teaches this lowering of function is what ultimately
leads to us dying as the organs fail due to weakness.

... this leads to the question: Why does this seem to start after 27? At or around 27 our own production of proteolytic
enzymes drops.

We make a finite amount of enzymes in a lifetime and use about half of that by 25. (That's the reason why young folks,
though they make cancer cells from the first day of life don't usually develop that or most any of the other conditions
mentioned, they have an adequate supply of proteolytic enzymes to fight off fibrosis
It is after our supply of proteolytic enzymes drops to be spread through the rest of our lifetime that we begin to develop
the fibrosis conditions.

(For you docs out there it's my contention that we can measure a pre morbid state from taking measures of proteolytic
enzymes just as we can predict death within 3 days by measuring the levels of Dopamine. Useful diagnostic tool
maybe. Nifty research tool certainly).

So if we can deal with the laying down of fibrosis as efficiently as we did as youngsters, then we would avoid or reduce
much of what is trying to shorten our lives or at least make us sick or less able.

The most important thing to put back into an aging body is are not vitamins and minerals, not herbs, not the growth
hormones but enzymes, the proteolytic enzymes.

Vitamins and minerals are more properly named co enzymes and co factors in other words they are things that help
enzymes to work. If the enzymes aren't there to begin with, then the vitamins and minerals have little to work on and
little action.

That's the reason why vitamin / mineral supplementation works so well for some and does not do squat for others, they
have little of the enzymes they need to work on.

If we put in some of the primary protein-eating enzymes, then the body will cause the "enzyme cascade" creating
thousands of new enzymes from the original 4 or 5.

Regarding fibrin.... all proteolytic enzymes eat away at fibrin (fibrinolysis) to some degree but some are considerably
stronger at that than others. If the proteolytic enzymes you put back are also very highly fibrinolytic then the scar tissue
your body has been creating WILL be taken away.

(This is a secret that plastic surgeons, internists and pulmonologists i.e. lung doctors, are learning about systemic
enzymes). The fibrin that is supposed to be there is marked by the body as an endogenous protein, in other words
something that is supposed to be part of your structure, but excesses in fibrin, though deposited by the body, are
marked as exogenous proteins - or as something not belonging in the body.

Remember excesses in fibrin equal:
* weak structure, (by not leaving enough space for epithelial tissue to grow through the fibrin matrix),
* restriction of range of motion ( joints and muscles)
* diminution of size and function ( internal organs).
(End of Wong quote.)

Conclusions in “Cardioreparation in Hypertensive Heart Disease” (HHD) (3)

This paper addresses cardiac fibrotic remodeling in general; not resulting from AF but rather, from hypertensive heart
disease(HHD). Note the author is addressing structural remodeling and treatment by cardioprotective or
cardioreparative strategies which support Wong’s findings.

Continue reading: [www.afibbers.org].

Be sure to read from the References Segment… William Wong’s report: Fibrosis, The Enemy of Life.


A newer study reports on the role of fibrosis in AF… stating: Accumulating evidence now advocates for a critical mechanistic role of inflammatory processes in the pathogenesis of atrial fibrosis. Fibrosis – a substrate for atrial fibrillation

Apart from electrical remodeling and contractile dysfunction, alterations in atrial tissue structure, namely atrial fibrosis, have been shown to increase the susceptibility to AF and may serve as a critical substrate in the formation of the arrhythmia.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Front Physiol. 2012; 3: 214.
Published online 2012 Jun 20. doi: 10.3389/fphys.2012.00214
PMCID: PMC3379725

Fibrosis in Atrial Fibrillation – Role of Reactive Species and MPO
Kai Friedrichs,1 Stephan Baldus,2 and Anna Klinke2,*

Abstract
Atrial fibrosis with enhanced turnover and deposition of matrix proteins leads to inhomogeneous atrial electrical conduction and gives rise to electrical reentry circuits resulting in atrial fibrillation. The multifactorial pathogenesis of atrial fibrosis involves resident cardiac cells as well as infiltrating leukocytes, both generating and sequestering matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs), a key enzyme family involved in fibrosis. A growing body of evidence points toward an important role of reactive oxygen species (ROS) in the release and activation of pro-MMPs and the stimulation of pro-fibrotic cascades. Myeloperoxidase (MPO), a bactericidal enzyme released from activated polymorphonuclear neutrophils (PMN) is not only associated with a variety of cardiovascular diseases, but has also been shown to be mechanistically linked to atrial fibrosis and fibrillation. MPO catalyzes the generation of reactive species like hypochlorous acid, which affect intracellular signaling cascades in various cells and advance activation of pro-MMPs and deposition of atrial collagen resulting in atrial arrhythmias. Thus, inflammatory mechanisms effectively promote atrial structural remodeling and importantly contribute to the initiation and perpetuation of atrial fibrillation.
Keywords: atrial fibrillation, fibrosis, reactive oxygen species, myeloperoxidase

(.....Keep in mind the connection to heavy exercise or endurance exercise, inflammation and ROS, then the fibrotic response which can result in necrotic heart tissue…)

Fibrogenesis Tissue Repair. 2012; 5: 19.
Published online 2012 Nov 1. doi: 10.1186/1755-1536-5-19
PMCID: PMC3534582 [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Abstract
Wound healing, cardiac fibrosis, and infarct scar development, while possessing distinct features, share a number of key functional similarities, including extracellular matrix synthesis and remodeling by fibroblasts and myofibroblasts. Understanding the underlying mechanisms that are common to these processes may suggest novel therapeutic approaches for pathologic situations such as fibrosis, or defective wound healing such as hypertrophic scarring or keloid formation. This manuscript will briefly review the major steps of wound healing, and will contrast this process with how cardiac infarct scar formation or interstitial fibrosis occurs. The feasibility of targeting common pro-fibrotic growth factor signaling pathways will be discussed. Finally, the potential exploitation of novel regulators of wound healing and fibrosis will be examined.

Jackie, thank you. Lynda

I have taken magnesium for a number of years, however, the last few months I am having problems taking the magnesium. If I take it everyday, I will have a lot of cramps and going to the bathroom a lot, so I take a little every few days.

It is pretty obivious that magnesium does not cure AF as many on here have tried Mag. and in the end opted for an ablation. I believe that mag. did help in lessening my episodes, but I still got AF. During the last couple of months of not taking much mag, I have not gotten any episodes of AF, also, my heart would beat harder when going to bed when taking the mag., I would take the mag. before bed, it was very annoying. My heart does not beat that hard anymore, it is calmer. Now why should mag. make my heart beat harder and if Mag. is a cure all, I should be having episodes of AF.

A Holistic doctor in Orlando Florida told my daughter, she has problems with mag., that your body can become intolerant to the supplement. This doctor believes in drinking lots of water, I have been drinking a lot more water and I am feeling much better, I have very few palps now.

Liz

By the way isn't Erling in his 80s, the article you posted Jackie said he is 75, must be an old article.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2015 03:59PM by Elizabeth.

Liz - Yes... I stated at the beginning of the report it was from 2004.

Keep in mind that just because one takes magnesium supplements, doesn't mean the most of the magnesium actually will reach the target cells... in our case, heart cells, because many interferences along the way enter into the assimilation and absorption issue.

For that reason, I wrote the report (2010) based on an interview with a doctor who uses magnesium on a large patient population ... Magnesium Absorption and Assimilation [www.afibbers.org]

Also keep in mind that some of the supplement products...even the capsules can cause reactions in those who are sensitive...so it could be that your heart pounding after magnesium was the product or the capsule or both. I'm pleased that after stopping the magnesium, you have not had more AF, as typically, that's not the case for most.

Many people find topical applications of magnesium (transdermal) more effective and others find that they have to use the IM injections or Myers Cocktail infusions for often a year or more to totally optimize the intracellular stores. Bowel tolerance doesn't signify IC repletion.

BTW - I have a conversation with Erling periodically and he's now 87... doing very well and still ticking away in NSR.
You can't knock that success. I'm soooo envious.

Jackie

For an understanding of why your heart beats too strongly when taking magnesium you would need to delve very deeply into your personal heart's metabolic/electrical functioning. Further, it is not necessarily magnesium per se that is AF curative, rather the "350+ enzymes that need magnesium directly to do their jobs properly". (The Mgnesium Factor, Mildred S. Seelig MD MPH, Andrea Rosanoff PhD. c. 2003)

To visualize normal myocardium structure with normal collagen fiber distribution see Figure 1 on Page 3 of the 1991 article at top: [circ.ahajournals.org]
Schematic representation of myocardium and its myocyte and nonmyocyte cells and tissue fluid.
Nonmyocyte cells include endothelial cells of intramyocardial blood and lymph (not shown) containing vasculature, vascular smooth muscle cells of intramyocardial coronary arteries and arterioles, cardiac fibroblasts, and macrophages (not shown).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2015 06:18PM by Moerk.

Hi Mork,

While I've been all for improving diet and IC magnesium, potassium and other key nutrient supplemental protocols for ages , as everyone here who has followed the forum for years knows, neverhness your statement above that removing excess fibrosis can 'cure' AFIB is a highly speculative conjecture.

There is a big gulf between limited animal studies and biochemical/ physiological investigations that show promising associations, and declaring a flat out clinical 'Cure' in humans... And not all cases of even longer standing AFIB are found to have appreciable levels of fibrotic changes in all such patients to begin with. Even when using the gold standard CARTO -3D ELectro-anatomical mapping system to examine and define amount of atrial scarring and fibrotic atrial changes during ablation procedures some afibbers have little to no notable fibrotic changes and yet still
Have rocking and rolling AFIB to the point where they have made to an ablationists table seeking relief... And quite a large number even after having adopted long term dedicated magnesium and potassium intake protocols and followed them religiously.

Without a doubt, fibrotic changes play a big part in AFIB progression, especially toward persistent AFIB when changes in non-PV atrial substrate areas tend to dominate as triggering areas over the PVs which are most often the major source of AFIB in earlier paroxysmal stages of the disease... Though there are exceptions.

The point being, AFIB is not such a simple equation that just bombing it with enough magnesium of the right amount and kind will effect a universal 'cure' for the condition, as a majority of those for our site have discovered over many years too.

There are some great success stories with the mag and K along with some other dietary changes and I too was one of those stories for 5 full years at one point before AFIB returned with a vengeance and turned to highly aggressive persistent AF inspire of me redoubling all the already heroic levels of Mag repletion with Weekly IV and daily IM Mag Sulfate injections, oral magnesium and topical magnesium ... Literally bathing in the stuff inside and out ... And still my heat was rocking along at 145bpm non stop during the last few months prior to my index ablation.

I am happy as a clam for you and everyone else who has discovered, either by other means or from our 16 years of advocacy for just the kind of focus on targeted ionic repletion as you point to, as often a key step toward successful management of the condition. More so than any other AFIB focussed site on the web we have consistently supported and investigated the wisdom of doing so over a long time frame.

There is no doubt in my mind that proper magnesium repletion in those who are deficient which includes the vast majority of afibbers, is a vital step in ongoing care and in so often helping in achieving a quieter heart.

But the 'cure' claims we get from time to time from what amounts to a small modest group of folks through the years who claim real success long term from their use of these protocols alone, I can certainly appreciate the enthusiasm from which such statement and convictions arise, and for some it is more or less functionally very much like a cure.

But I'm with George and many others here who see the distinction between a job well done in making the real effort to improve ones health and magnesium status, as an afibbers, as a great good fortune too in which fortune clearly favors the prepared, but hardly a real stand alone cure. Not when so very many have tried very hard applying all
the protocols and ideas and often with Initial long term success, only to still then need an expert ablation process to seal the deal.

I hope too that you continue to have such good success, and you well may. But It seems more appropriate from all that we know to label your experience as yet another successful management effort over the last ..... (Plug in the number) ... of years, rather than pronounce a cure based on a theory of fibrotic elimination as if magnesium has been proven to eliminate all forms and degree of scarring or fibrosis from human atrial cardiac tissue, which it has not been shown to do at this stage to my knowledge. Nor has elimination of atrial fibrosis been shown to bring about a definitive cure of AFIB either, by whatever means it is achieved.

Certainly, it is safe to say from the literature, and what we know clinically, that minimizing or reversing fibrotic build up in the atria is a good thing and can very much help contribute to a quieter and more flexible atrial substrate... But making it the prime cause, and elimination of it, the prime cure for AFIB is definitely overstating the case at this point of medical knowledge about this very complex and multi-faceted condition.

Nevertheless, the point of emphasis on improving ones magnesium, and other key electrolyte status I am 100% for and support whole-heartedly, but also don't want to over state the case too when the number of people who have truly achieved true freedom from a long standing AFIB via these means alone are still rather small.

Its absolutely worth each person finding out if their individual case, circumstances, nature of their AFIB manifestation and genetics will all combine to make them one of the lucky number who may well effect a more or less functional cure from following the Strategy-based protocols and other life style risk factor modifications, But even when that is not enough, continuing on with these protocols along with adding in a top tier ablation can still bring about a functional end to AFIB for the long term for a larger number of afibbers.. and this is the message that has evolved out of our collective experience over the last 16 years.

Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2015 11:10PM by Shannon.

I'll be posting Part 2 of my previous response eventually, but wanted to include this along with Part 1 on fibrosis which is especially relevant in aging:

Bringing forth this info previously posted in other threads on this… re: Magnesium Deficiency, Fibrosis formation, Aging and Cardiac Fibrosis…

Whether or not one has Afib, it makes sense to realize that cardiac fibrosis… or fibrosis in other locations occurs commonly with aging and is the reaction to inflammation; and, in the case of intense or endurance exercise, the ROS factor plus magnesium deficiency along with reduced production of proteolytic enzymes as we age. Other than aging, these are factors we can do something about. Everyone is aging. The question becomes: How Healthy are You Aging?

In previous posts, I’ve quoted the findings of researcher, William J. Rowe, MD and astronauts in space flight. If it makes sense to ensure that astronauts don’t develop magnesium deficiency which protects against cardiac fibrosis in space, then it obviously makes sense to manage it here with both feet on the ground. Recall, also, that Dr. Rowe’s research with the endurance runner, Sy Mah…noting focal fibrosis and myocardial necrosis…and connecting magnesium deficiency to fibrosis.

Source: Extraordinary unremitting endurance exercise and permanent injury to normal heart - Sy Mah's Stress Test - The Lancet Vol 340ept 19, 1992, pp712-714 [femsinspace.com] See also:

Correcting magnesium deficiency and cardiac fibrosis.deficiencies may prolong life
William J Rowe

Abstract
The International Space Station provides an extraordinary facility to study the accelerated aging process in microgravity, which could be triggered by significant reductions in magnesium (Mg) ion levels with, in turn, elevations of catecholamines and vicious cycles between the two. With space flight there are significant reductions of serum Mg (P < 0.0001) that have been shown in large studies of astronauts and cosmonauts. The loss of the functional capacity of the cardiovascular system with space flight is over ten times faster than the course of aging on Earth. Mg is an antioxidant and calcium blocker and in space there is oxidative stress, insulin resistance, and inflammatory conditions with evidence in experimental animals of significant endothelial injuries and damage to mitochondria. The aging process is associated with progressive shortening of telomeres, repetitive DNA sequences, and proteins that cap and protect the ends of chromosomes. Telomerase can elongate pre-existing telomeres to maintain length and chromosome stability. Low telomerase triggers increased catecholamines while the sensitivity of telomere synthesis to Mg ions is primarily seen for the longer elongation products. Mg stabilizes DNA and promotes DNA replication and transcription, whereas low Mg might accelerate cellular senescence by reducing DNA stability, protein synthesis, and function of mitochondria. Telomerase, in binding to short DNAs, is Mg dependent. On Earth, in humans, a year might be required to detect changes in telomeres, but in space there is a predictably much shorter duration required for detection, which is therefore more reasonable in time and cost. Before and after a space mission, telomere lengths and telomerase enzyme activity can be determined and compared with age-matched control rats on Earth. The effect of Mg supplementation, both on maintaining telomere length and extending the life span, can be evaluated. Similar studies in astronauts would be fruitful.

Full report: [www.adn-astragale.fr]
Clin Interv Aging. 2012; 7: 51–54.
Published online 2012 Feb 16. doi: 10.2147/CIA.S28768
PMCID: PMC3287408


Moreover, fibroblasts are critically involved in cardiac repair following myocardial infarction and in the pathogenesis of cardiac fibrosis [16]. (from the Aging and Fibrosis report – below.)

Aging and Cardiac Fibrosis
Anna Biernacka and Nikolaos G Frangogiannis*

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Abstract
The aging heart is characterized by morphological and structural changes that lead to its functional decline and are associated with diminished ability to meet increased demand. Extensive evidence, derived from both clinical and experimental studies suggests that the aging heart undergoes fibrotic remodeling. Age-dependent accumulation of collagen in the heart leads to progressive increase in ventricular stiffness and impaired diastolic function. Increased mechanical load, due to reduced arterial compliance, and direct senescence-associated fibrogenic actions appear to be implicated in the pathogenesis of cardiac fibrosis in the elderly. Evolving evidence suggests that activation of several distinct molecular pathways may contribute to age-related fibrotic cardiac remodeling. Reactive oxygen species, chemokine-mediated recruitment of mononuclear cells and fibroblast progenitors, transforming growth factor (TGF)-β activation, endothelin-1 and angiotensin II signaling mediate interstitial and perivascular fibrosis in the senescent heart. Reduced collagen degradation may be more important than increased de novo synthesis in the pathogenesis of aging-associated fibrosis. In contrast to the baseline activation of fibrogenic pathways in the senescent heart, aging is associated with an impaired reparative response to cardiac injury and defective activation of reparative fibroblasts in response to growth factors. Because these reparative defects result in defective scar formation, senescent hearts are prone to adverse dilative remodeling following myocardial infarction. Understanding the pathogenesis of interstitial fibrosis in the aging heart and dissecting the mechanisms responsible for age-associated healing defects following cardiac injury are critical in order to design new strategies for prevention of adverse remodeling and heart failure in elderly patients.

Source: Aging Dis. 2011 Apr; 2(2): 158–173.
Published online 2011 Mar 6.
PMCID: PMC3153299
NIHMSID: NIHMS279891 [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Keywords: Aging, cardiac fibrosis, chemokine, MCP-1, TGF-β, angiotensin II, cardiac remodeling


See also: Paul Mason’s collection: [www.mgwater.com]


Jackie

Peggy - I'm so pleased to see you post this reminder about The List and CR 61.. It would be a fun and a worthwhile project to try contacting members of The List to learn more now after 8 years. I think I'll try a few soon.

As I mentioned in the response to Liz, I do talk with Erling who is now 87 and showing no signs of AF or other major health concerns. His brain is as sharp as a tack. As Fran would say: "tough old Viking!"... Thanks for reminding us that diet, lifestyle changes and supplements can make a huge difference in reversing the AF process. It's certainly worth a very good try because so many other contributing factors are eliminated in the process that one ends up with a far more healthy body overall.

Thank you for staying active with us by contributing your experiences and observations.

Best to you,
Jackie


Antifib, if you are a medical anomaly, then every List member is also, so you have a lot of company. In Conf. Rm. Proc. session 61 you will find the no-more-afib accounts of 50 people with similar anomalies. Each of these worthies has described as exactly as they were able, just what they did to achieve this much happier state. All have given brand names, dosage, and timing of whatever supplements they used and have described whatever dietary changes they made. All of them posted here with the intent of telling the rest of us what they did that worked. Some of these people are still posting here and may be questioned to your heart's content. Of the people who have stopped haunting this site, many had working email addresses at that time, and surely some could still be reached at those same addresses if somebody wanted to go to the trouble of attempting contact. (Peggy)

Here's the link to CR 61 and The List [www.afibbers.org]

Jackie:

I am sorry but I have doubts that 50 people have reversed their AF and no longer have it. Hans, Shannon, Jackie, P.C. these four tried everything, I read of the many things that P.C. went through, nothing worked and they are now free due to an ablation. The only ones that I know of who have reversed their AF are George and Erling, I have not gotten any worse and in fact my episodes are usually anywhere from 2 to 3 months, I don't take Potassium supplements, I did take mag. (around 400 mg.) until the last month or so, I believe in getting as much as possible from my food, nuts and meat especially.

Liz

As to a powdered form of mag, I purchase dimagnesium malate through an equine supplier. It is made by Albion for human consumption. I've talked to the supplier. She markets the human stuff for horses (it helps with my "mareish behavior"...). <[shop.performanceequinenutrition.com] I worked it out once, I think 1/2 tsp ~1g of mag. As I've previously reported, I take anywhere between 3-5g/day of mag of various forms.

This works well for me.

I got home last night from a 10 day trip. On trips I simplify. I used around 3 g/day mag from the dimag and about 0.8 g from KAL mag glycinate.

George

Liz - That 50 people was Peggy’s quote, in her post to AntiAfib.... not mine.

But I can attest to others who did not post on Peggy’s list that I worked with over the years… probably at least 20 people, if not more, who had success in reversing Afib. One is a nurse, one is a physician, several are outside of the US, and one I recall attributed success to becoming totally gluten free. So that makes well over 70 plus all those who came after the publishing of the original “List” by Peggy. It will be interesting to see if we can locate some of the participates to follow up with their stories at this point in time.

I fail to understand why you doubt this works for many people. Nevertheless, if one has Afib, it certainly makes sense to try the nutritional repletion approach because often, other maladies and complaints clear up in the process as well.

Jackie

I have a local personal friend, diagnosed just after I figured out my protocol. I told him my story. He did the mag thing for years, at high intakes (4-5g/day) like me. Then he learned he has obstructive sleep apnea. He is not overweight, but has a 17" neck, which is a risk. Subsequent to treating the apnea, he has been able to reduce his mag intakes to more "normal" levels while keeping his afib at bay. His afib has not progressed.

Anti fib's story is remarkable as he reversed from a very significant progression. Fran (an early poster) did, too. My assumption has been this has a much better chance of working if you haven't had significant progression. Obviously not true in all cases.

George

Jackie:

There are a lot of things that are posted on the net, one cannot believe everything they read, also, as I pointed out Hans tried everything as did P.C. you and Shannon, I have faith that these 4 did all that could be done and yet could not reverse AF. We don't know if all of those people that you cite are still AF free without an ablation, I have been on here for a lot of years, as I remember some people thought they were cured if they went without AF for a few months, we know that isn't the case.

I do recall one lady from Florida that did say she got her AF under control by taking probiotics for her gut, can't remember her name, she no longer posts.

I have no problem with going the nutritional route, in fact, I am all for it, I believe in good nourishing food, lots of water, I believe more in this route than all the supplements some seem to think we need.

If there are people that have gotten their AF under control with natural means, that is great, but most of the posts that I have been reading are about people getting ablations.

Liz

Liz

PeggyM,
A sincere thank you for your dedication in support of self-healing by cataloging detailed accounts of atrial fibrillation cures for other's benefit. Thank you for your reply to Anti-Fib, so encouraging to read.
Mørk

Shannon,
Many years ago, following a career in applied physical sciences, I tasked myself to study life science which narrowed to human physiology, ultimately cellular and cardiac physiology. An early study was Spontaneous Healing by Harvard trained Andrew Weil MD, Professor of Medicine, wherein he described, in scientific detail, the body's innate healing systems, beginning with a description of continuous spontaneous maintenance and healing of damaged DNA. The subtitle, How to Discover and Enhance Your Body's Natural Ability to Maintain and Heal Itself, encouraged ongoing studies on self-healing. Never in the sciences did I find these optimistic facts challenged or denied, rather the deeper the studies the greater the detailed descriptions on all levels of the body's complex physiology. Arriving on this website to find a very pessimistic view regarding self-healing of a cardiac dysrhythmia has been astonishing. The sciences prove otherwise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2015 04:22PM by Moerk.

Hi Liz and all,

It would be very interesting to contact all those on the list who might still have the same contactable email addresses and who wish to respond. The thing is, if every single one is still AFIB free after 8 plus years since last reporting, either that is a true miracle or there could be at least some degree of reporting bias. You wouldnt expect all 70 from any group of Afibbers treated with any method to have never had any AFIB for 8 full years regardless of what method they used.

I know too from personal experience how strongly the impulse can be not to be counted, even if in ones own mind, as a failure with the natural approach after having dedicated oneself to it with such commitment for so long, when and if it does come up a bit short of total reversal of AFIB and even when it has been a big help nonetheless. Its only human nature to want to support the personal effort methods which gives a sense of control back to the patient when before it seemed so out of control and frustrating to live and deal with.

What I am saying in NO way diminishes, or lessens my enthusiasm in recommending wholeheartedly that every Afibber make a serious dedicated effort not only for at least a year people after discovering out site and starting these Strategy-based protocols, but ongoingly as a permanent life style and whole body health commitment for life regardless whether or not there was a total remission of AFIB, a good degree of lessening of AFIB burden but not enough to avoid an ablation, or little to no help on the AFIB front at all from the effort.

But I do see a slippery slope too when either side of this coin becomes held on to with too much messianic fervor, such that for every manifestation of AFIB the obvious and best solution is ONLY magnesium and natural means or ONLY an ablation process.

What I recognize, is that this kind of dogmatic thinking has a tendency, in my experience of seeing so many Afibbers, plus countless functional and holistic health and medicine devotees at the many BHRT and Functional Medicine conferences I have attended and worked at over the last 7 years, to be stronger and more apt to attract the 'true believer' types such that they can lose balance in their perspective as well when for every problem there is a ready made nail to use that they have already 'figured out' previously and has little to nothing to do with traditional medicine as the first criteria.

I used to think that way too to some degree, but life has a way of dis-abusing one of such dogmatism, especially if you have an active and serious malady that requires casting a wider net than your previous thinking and beliefs might have limited you too. And if you still retain enough internal self-reflection and honesty with oneself such that you will not be blinded by the what 'should be' rather than 'the way life is telling you it is' in your case.

The same is often true for dogmatic allopaths who scoff at all natural therapies and never ever look beneath a superficial analysis that confirms their long held biases as well.

In any event, what I have learned is the wisdom of keeping an open and inquisitive mind, and always dive deeper into the questions your life experience is offering to you without assuming you know the answers, or even where that answer must come from up front in all cases. That kind of hubris, I have seen a lot of in both the holistic and allopathic worlds, and in my experience is almost always very limiting and ultimately misleading to one degree or another, even when some real truths are contained in each perspective as well.

What I try to warn against here, is that once we have convinced people to make a strong and ongoing effort at lifestyle and cardiac risk factor modification as well as adopt dietary and nutritional repletion, moderate consistent exercise and stress reduction as a big priority in their lives, and as a cornerstone of their AFIB battle. I nevertheless, urge folks not to get so wedded to the natural approach only ... or the ablation allopathic approach only ... that they wind up shooting themselves in the foot somewhat by continuing to beat a lame horse for too long going forward when it has not done the trick sufficiently well after, and when, the first favored approach proves not fully successful within one year of focused application and effort and here I am specifically referring to the supplemental and drug approach prior to, and hopefully in lieu of, needing to start an expert ablation process.

It's very important, in my view, to set a limit on how long one will try to wring blood out of a turnip IF they have not had dramatic positive returns on their natural and life style efforts over the course of a years time. Assuming their AFIB is of a manageable enough state of progression that you can tolerate some on-going break throughs during your ramp up months of the new protocols.

It is just SO easy to become a life long card carrying member of one side of this club or another, without hardly realizing it, where the person truly feels like either they belong to the 'worthy' side of the fence, if they can get on top of their AFIB by their own efforts and merit, or by implication, will fall into the 'unworthy' camp if they are not successful with the holistic natural approach alone, even after heroic efforts at doing everything in ones power to win this battle with supplements, diet and good living all around.

That can then lead people to procrastinate far too long sticking it out with one more attempt after another after repeated failures and increasing progression in-spite of doing everything on the check list to a "T". The sad part is that by following that one dimensional path, the person is very apt to then miss, and thus pass up, a golden chance to play this game like a true pro and win this thing gracefully and with clear-eyed open-minded intelligence by knowing just the best time when to cast that net to wider shores to give oneself the best odds possible of plugging the leaks in the dike earlier, rather than later, when the constant drip has become a flood of remodeled fibrosis and progression. And all the while one is taking every supplement in the book and eating perfectly etc etc.

This condition is just so complex and varied in nature and for as many people as their are who are likely to be able to put the genie back in the bottle with the life style and dietary methods we all champion here .. and hallelujah to all for whom this works out that way ... there are likely far higher numbers who will require a more nuanced and truly holistic multifaceted approach to get the best long term results.

Just don't be so wedded to one way of thinking, like I was at one point when I was absolutely as convinced as someone, perhaps such as Moerk or Anti-AFIB might understandably feel with their ongoing successes in good self management of their AFIB, and in my case feeling that for sure I had this thing whipped or at least was confident I could easily control the beast when, and if, it raised its head again in the future.

And yet, it was this very same over-confidnce that led me to keep pushing off a needed ablation process for a couple years too long after the beast began to return in ernest as I tried to tinker with this aspect, or adjust that dosage protocol etc, and on and on. Thus, from pushing that theme too far, I wound up with a raging case of highly aggressive persistent AFIB that very likely is why I also eventually required LAA isolation too ... and then a LARIAT .. followed by a fluke and unfortunate stroke ...and then having to Plug the LAA leak and so on .....The last few steps I may well have avoided had I played my cards a bit smarter and more open-minded earlier on in the process.

For all those currently controlling AFIB very well with the life style and dietary methods alone, that is fantastic and I fully support continuing on what you are doing, obviously! But at the same, please also let into your awareness the possibility that at some point you still might benefit from another approach along with your dedication to nutritional repletion and dietary improvement, should the current successes you now enjoy begin to fade ... that is all I urge, not to get too confident to the point that this has all been figured out and one would would never dream of going for an ablation .. or might take years of increasing torment in order to wear that confidence down enough to open the doors to doing so.

Thats about the size of it from my view, I'm a big promoter of the best aspects of both sides of the fence and the wise and timely use of both when and as needed.

Cheers!
Shannon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2015 04:45PM by Shannon.

PeggyM, I have long puzzled over a way to say what your comment to GeorgeN says so perfectly:

About a cure consisting of being able to discontinue electrolyte supplementation, does that mean that scurvy is not cured unless one is able to discontinue intake of vitamin C-containing foods? George?

Thank you very much !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2015 09:14AM by Moerk.

Mørk,

Here is a puzzle. I lived for 49 years without afib and without supplementing any mag. Something changed. After 4 months I figured out that I could control afib with magnesium to bowel tolerance, potassium & taurine. I also got a script for flecainide on demand to convert me to NSR for the times the electrolytes failed. This has worked exceptionally well for 10 1/2 years. With the exception of pushing myself to the max with all day hard endurance exercise, I can do as I like. Life is good. After about 4 months on the protocol, I had it tweaked well enough that I did not have any episodes for 2 years. Then I thought I was reacting to fillers in the supplements. I'd also deluded myself that I was "cured." I stopped everything. Afib was an unwelcome visitor again within 24-48 hours. I've obviously not repeated the experiment.

I did have a period several years ago where my stellar control diminished. It coincided with a divorce. I thought it was due to added stress (which was certainly present in spades). Later I realized I'd added a significant amount of calcium to my diet in the form of stress eating wheels of cheese. I stopped all cheese (and dairy for that matter) and my control instantly returned. It has been 25 months since that revelation (which came from remembering what I'd read early on here and in the Conference Room). During that 25 months, I've had 1 hour 15 minutes of afib.

Whether it is cure on not is purely semantics. I'm very happy with the result.

George

Peggy and others:


Your point is valid, about the 50 or so people in "the list". Alot of herioc and ground-breaking work was done then, before the age of more successfull Ablations. It's seems like the tide has really shifted on this site towards Ablations in the last several years, and I've wondered about shills getting compensated for making Ablation Sales-Pitches on here. God knows the corporate pressure on Dr's to make money for their companies is great. At one of the Cardio places I go to, every single EP in the practice, (about 10 of them) performs Ablations. Now there no way in hell, that they are all equally good at it! Not to mention they cannot be as proficient as a high-volume center like where Natale or Reddy performs. It's just an effort to maximize profits.

Liz:

You have tried different forms of Mg right? For example I can't take the Oxide form.
Sounds like if you do take it, don't take very much before bed.

I agree with your scepticism about the 50 patients reversing out of their condition, but even if it's only 20 or 30, that have been greatly helped, that is still significant.

Hi Shannon– I’m pleased to read your confirming statements that of this topicyou support both sides and encourage lifestyle changes and good nutrition for all afibbers since ablation in an unhealthy body probably won’t last long for various reasons.

Another plus for sharing the benefits and successes of the nutritional/functional/restorative approach is for readers who don’t have insurance and possibly with no chance of getting anything they can afford that will cover a procedure. …or can’t fly to Bordeaux to help defray cost.

These days, so many people have money problems due to lack of work or just hard times, we need to offer them helpful options and approaches so readers can make the best possible choice for their circumstances whether just short term or the long haul.

As far as the 70+ people who reported reversing AF… I’d consider them to be successful if they are mostly Afib free and tolerate a short event once every couple of years or so. If they are living well with an occasional short circuit, but otherwise in good health overall, I could live with that in terms of success. If I were in those shoes, I would choose to continue down that path and avoid ablation.

If not, then I’d follow our advice of choosing from the elite EPs that can provide the best, safest approach to an Afib free heart...assuming I had insurance or the cash to cover it.

Jackie

George- Your story is 'classic' in the magnesium depletion/fibrosis/AFib department. Long term endurance exercise does cause the fibrosis/necrosis damage that is documented by those such as William Rowe mentioned in the previous posts.
Indulge me here while I elaborate on a few of many influences that deplete magnesium.

Stress depletes magnesium... endurance exercise is high stress and obviously, that calcium intake did run high interference...either from food or supplements. Many other sources for magnesium depletion, as you know, but one people don't often think about is their drinking water.

Outside influences (environmental) such as any drugs - Rx or recreational, alcohol, environmental toxins… such as chemicals in drinking water… Fluoride (naturally occurring or added to muni water) is a big depleter of magnesium as are the other chemicals added to muni water for purification, and other dietary influences that deplete or block magnesium including supplemental calcium, high calcium foods, sugar, acidic colas or sodas, high sodium intake.

If drinking and bathing water is high in natural fluoride or muni water with added fluoride, that’s often overlooked or simply dismissed as not relevant...but can be a big influence for why some can’t maintain optimal Mg levels.

Environmental now includes exposure to EMFs via cell phones, WiFi, GPS, Smart Meters and all things electronic that operate with Electromagnetic Frequencies. Those working with remediation of EMF exposure to people in homes report it causes cells to rupture and contents lost… which would include magnesium. These days, it's hard not to be exposed to EMFs and EMR. So that connection is highly relevant and could be significant in those with 24/7 exposure.

Another influence is low potassium:

Mechanism of Hypokalemia in Magnesium Deficiency
Chou-Long Huang*† and Elizabeth Kuo*
September 5, 2007, doi: 10.1681/ASN.2007070792 JASN October 2007 vol. 18 no. 10 2649-2652 [jasn.asnjournals.org]

Abstract
Magnesium deficiency is frequently associated with hypokalemia. Concomitant magnesium deficiency aggravates hypokalemia and renders it refractory to treatment by potassium. Herein is reviewed literature suggesting that magnesium deficiency exacerbates potassium wasting by increasing distal potassium secretion. A decrease in intracellular magnesium, caused by magnesium deficiency, releases the magnesium-mediated inhibition of ROMK channels and increases potassium secretion. Magnesium deficiency alone, however, does not necessarily cause hypokalemia. An increase in distal sodium delivery or elevated aldosterone levels may be required for exacerbating potassium wasting in magnesium deficiency. [End]

There could also be a gene mutation that prevents proper magnesium metabolism but may not manifest until the 'wear and tear' of life and stress accumulations deplete magnesium to the extent it starts making an impact.

A missense mutation in the Kv1.1 voltage-gated potassium channel–encoding gene KCNA1 is linked to human autosomal dominant hypomagnesemia
Bob Glaudemans1, Jenny van der Wijst1, Rosana H. Scola2, Paulo J. Lorenzoni2, Angelien Heister3, AnneMiete W. van der Kemp1, Nine V. Knoers3, Joost G. Hoenderop1 and René J. Bindels1
[www.jci.org]

In any event, I'm so very pleased that you've been able to manage your AF so successfully. I remember well the early days when you were starting on your journey to quell the beast. You've done a remarkable job and the fact that you are still with us and helping others find their path to relief from Afib is most welcome.

Best to you and thanks!

Jackie

Anti-Fib, you state the situation well. Seems the ablation business is an aspect of The Medical Racket (importantl '98 book by Martin L. Gross). This is the reason for minimal research into the nutritional basis of AF

Anti-Fib

I was taking Magnesium Gly. that seemed to give me more problems, a lot of mag. supplements have Mag. oxide in them. Funny, but my Holistic doctor believes in Mag. Oxide, he says his patients have more luck with the oxide. So who is correct, some of the people on this forum or my Holistic Doctor. George takes different kinds of Magnesium and appears to have no problems.

I have learned that natural means can to do a lot for your overall health, but there are times when it isn't enough and a medical approach needs to be looked at, sometimes both fail. Dr. Don Colbert, a Holistic doctor, of Orlando Florida, said he believes that drinking Alkaline water and taking his Green Super Food, which has a lot of super foods like Kale, spinach etc that has been fermented, is all you would need. He says he takes both and no longer takes any supplements, he has said that a lot of his patients cannot take supplements, as they upset their stomachs. I believe that some supplements do cause problems, I know I cannot take Natto. it gives me aural migraines.

You seem to forget that Han and a number of people did try all kinds of methods, supplements, Waller Water, many other things, but they eventually got an ablation, they are just telling posters on here where the best ablation Doctors are which has helped quite a few posters.

Liz

Moerk, would you like to try answering that too-poignant question? Or this one: Are cars ever cured of the need for fuel? Or this one: Is an empty gas tank the same as a disease?

What ails me where afib is concerned certainly seems to be equivalent to what ails the car when fuel is low. Systematically replenishing electrolyte minerals abolishes afib for me. Does it for some others too. But not all.

I am a biochemically unique person, and so are you. This is a good thing, correct?

I can turn afib off, it seems, by supplementing electrolyte minerals and taurine, which i understand to be a sort of helper substance, amplifying the effect of the minerals. Close attention to hydration seems to help a lot too.

This is a low tech, inexpensive technique.

It will never be popular among those whose living depends on hi tech expensive interventions.

Some people who try this will not be successful.

Those are the only two negatives i can think of about trying nutritional replenishment as a treatment for afib. If you can think of some more negatives about it, fire away. I want to hear it. Criticism does not seem to make my afib come back.

PeggyM

Peggy - Thank you, Thank you! Your analogy is perfect.

Best to you,
Jackie

Moerk - Re the lack of research into the nutritional basis for AF or most other diseases....

The minimal research into the nutritional basis for most all diseases always harkens back to the money to be made by patenting drugs and/or obviously expensive procedures. As the old natural medicine sage, Donald Carrow, MD, used to say.... just follow the money trail. If there is no money to be made by drugs or surgical procedures, "they" will put down or disclaim anything nutritionally worth doing if it has merit and would compete with their bottom line.

Somewhere there should be a balance that would benefit both patient and practitioner. A protective measure that benefits the patient would do wonders to control the escalating cost of medical care and medical insurance.

Look just look at iodine and the lack of interests by endocrinologists to test for that deficiency or until the past 8 or so years, testing for Vitamin D deficiency. Even now many patients have to insist on the test rather than have it be a standard, preventive measure.

Jackie

I am not a car, just a living, breathing human.

Sadly supplements, diet etc. don't always work many have tried to no avail and are now happy with the results of their ablations.

Liz



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2015 01:27PM by Elizabeth.

My journey to afib remission was one of total focus. Nearly 11 years ago, the now "standard" answer of magnesium, taurine and potassium were by no means standard. These three were part of a very large quantity of potential answers. I went through PubMed, read nearly every one of the historical posts here as well as all of the Afib Report back issues as well as Hans' reader surveys looking for all clues, n=1 or otherwise. I purchased a simple ECG machine as well as a recording heart rate monitor. I would routinely monitor my heart during meditation for an hour or so every day, looking for PAC's & PVC's. I figured out how to discriminate between the two with the Polar monitor by running it in parallel with the ECG. I would sample PAC & PVC counts/hour and record them along with the various things I tried. I sampled during meditation as I was montionless and less likely to introduce artefact into the data. I tried many different combinations and doses. It took months to tweak it right. At one point it worked "pretty well" but had afib a month apart. I finally added taurine as the last piece of the puzzle for me. Eight or so years later, during a divorce, my control diminished and I manged to keep afib down to a modest level. I initially added in flec before bed, then by adding ginger was able to titrate the flec to zero over a month. It took another six months before I deduced that it was added calcium from cheese, not divorce stress that was the culprit. I never miss a dose of my supplements. Even when caught last winter away from my supplements due to a snowstorm and road closure, I went to the big box store and bought a jar of max oxide tablets and downed a handful that night and the next morning.

Most people I run into do not have this same level of motivation or discipline. When they ask, I'll suggest magnesium (when I suggest to bowel tolerance, most look at me like I'm crazy), some potassium and taurine. If it doesn't work right away they usually aren't interested in working to figure out how to tweak to make it work, so I suggest they get an ablation at the best place they can, usually with Natale.

For some, they try it and it works right away - hurray!

George

George:

What are your lab values for magnesium and potassium? Most people cannot take the amount of magnesium that you intake, I can only take a very small amount----I do eat a lot of veggies and fruit, maybe you don't, you have to admit that you are not the average person, re: the amount of Mag. and potassium that you take.

You remember P.C. I am sure-- he tried everything as did Hans, they were probably as dedicated as you are but could not beat AF. You said you downed a handful of mag. tabs, I would say most and myself would be sitting on the pot all night, how are you able to do that?

Liz

LIZ:

I would try Doctor's Best chelated Mg to "bowell tolerance", then try adding "Waller Water" to that. That is what Hans had originally suggested, and it worked for me.

Oxide Works if your wanting the laxative effect of Mg, we want to treat AFIB, not sit on the Pot all day right?
I would listen to advice here before a Holistic Dr. How bad was his AFIB anyway?, did he even really have any?

Since your here, and this far into all this, I would make sure you cover all of bases, so to speak, with your Mg supplementation options.

As for George, he is an anomaly, who else can handle that much Mg? I take only 400mg/day, not 4000mg.

Lastly I understand what you are saying about the Ablation posters, I was referring to the relative newcomers on this site, not to Hans, Jackie, Shannon, etc.

Anti-Fib,

"As for George, he is an anomaly, who else can handle that much Mg? I take only 400mg/day, not 4000mg. "

While I agree, I'm an anomaly, I'm not unique. I personally know 5 others who take mag in the 2,000-5,000 mg/day. Greater than 1,000 mg/day is very common. Recent poster ghg says he takes a total of 2g/day - 1g morning and evening of mag as acetate <[www.afibbers.org] .

I do concur that bowel tolerance is highly individual. I know some who hit bowel tolerance at 200 mg/day.

George

As we know from hundreds of testimonials published here over the years, not everyone requires or tolerates the exact same dosage of various nutrients including magnesium.

George is classic an example of 'biochemical individuality'.... as explained in the book by that title published originally in 1956 by Roger J. William, PhD, biochemist and professor of Medicine at the University of Texas – Austin, and again in 1998.

Jackie



From the back cover and a review:

There is no such thing as the average person – we are all genetically and biochemically unique. But when sperm meets egg, or characteristics are not locked in stone. Bad genes do not cause disease by themselves – nutritional and environment can alter the outcome.

Dr. Roger Williams, world-renowned biochemist, told us forty years ago that biochemical individuality – the difference in anatomy and metabolism from person to person—influences our health. For optimal function, we each have unique nutritional needs and specific environmental requirement. This message is even more timely today than it was originally put forth in 1956.

Biochemical Individuality explains why:

- Some of us are better at detoxifying drugs and chemicals
- The harmful amino acid homocysteine may or may not cause heart disease
- Cancer genes respond in different ways to diet and environment
- Some people are alcoholics or diabetics
- Low fat diets cause some people to gain weight
- One person needs higher levels of a nutrient than another to be healthy.

" This book should have an honored place among the principal reference books of anyone interested in health and nutrition." Jeffrey Bland, PhD. FACN, CNS - Father of Functional Medicine

Biochemical Individuality was first published by Roger J. Williams in 1956. It has just been reissued with a new introduction by Jeffrey S. Bland. Dr. Bland explains that Dr. Williams was the first to recognize all humans differ biochemically from others. He says that Dr. Williams was also the first to recognize that "nutritional status can influence the expression of genetic characteristics."

Dr. Williams conducted his own studies, as well as drawing on the work of others, to show that each of us is different. One chapter describes differences in anatomy, outlining how even such vital organs as hearts and stomachs vary in size, shape, and physical location from person to person.

The chapter on pharmacology explains how, even though the chemistry of each is known, drugs effect people in different ways, due to differences in body chemistry. That's why what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.

Dr. Williams says that "while the same physical mechanisms and the same metabolic processes are operating in all human bodies, the structures are sufficiently diverse [that] the sum total of all the reactions taking place in one individual's body may be very different from those taking place in the body of another individual of the same age, sex, and body size."

His observations led Dr. Williams to theorize that each individual also had unique nutritional needs, and that determining and meeting those needs would help combat disease.

Although written in academic language, Biochemical Individuality is of interest to all readers who recognize "there is no such thing as a truly 'normal' individual" and that people have "unique biochemical profiles based upon their own genetic structure, nutrition, and environment."

OK, "anomely" was not the right word. I'm just glad I don't have to worry about trying to consume that much Mg.

Anti fib

You say you would listen to "advice here before I would listen to a Holistic Doctor", I hope you are kidding. I have been on
this site for maybe around 10 years, I have read many posts about doing this or that.

At one time Hans had a survey which had posters taking Waller Water for I believe it was for a month, then post your results, most did not benefit by eliminating their AF.

I Hope your endeavors work out for you, most of the top contributors to this site have had ablations.

Liz

Hello PeggyM, that was a wonderful funny way of making the point about cure!
Beriberi is another single-nutrient deficiency disease, cured by correcting the thiamine (Vitamin B1) deficiency.

Relating humans to cars and cure is funny too and actually quite instructive! I once had a car that would go into engine fibrillation for no apparent reason. That is the most fitting word for how it seemed. Fortunately, it would always convert to normal smooth running before having to call for emergency service. The first time was scary. We - the car, the engine, and I - were alone on a desert road when suddenly the engine began running irregularly, regularly. This happened several times on different occasions, always after fueling at one particular station. Putting 2 and other 2s together did at last bring understanding to the reason for the engine's paroxysmal fibrillations: it was caused by that station's bad fuel! From then on the car was always given good fuel and EF has not happened for nearly 8 years -- but cured?

Thinking upon beriberi brings to mind this article read during rather intense studies on cardiac physiology:

Circulation, Volume XIX, February 1959 [circ.ahajournals.org]
Beriberi Heart Disease
By Reverdy H. Jones, Jr., M.D.
From the Medical Department, Lewis-Gale Hospital, Roanoke, Va.
Presented, in part, at the Regional Meeting, American College of Physicians, Richmond, Va., February 1956.

Introduction:
Two cases of beriberi heart disease are presented together with a discussion of the history, diagnosis, and treatment of this condition. Special emphasis is given to the broadened concept of the diagnosis of beriberi heart disease, particularly as it occurs in the Occident.

Quote from text:
In some patients electrocardiographic changes with tachycardia but without other abnormalities were seen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2015 04:30PM by Moerk.

Be aware that magnesium repletion can take many months and often longer than a year to notice improvement and it's an ongoing commitment. A month of a trial of WW reflects nothing other than not enough time for an accurate assessment.
Also, if nothing is done to concomitantly improve the condition of the cellular membranes, then magnesium (and other nutrients) doesn't have a prayer of accessing inside the cell where it functions. Many influences damage the membranes and need to be eliminated.

People who are very refractory to magnesium repletion find some improvement with IM injections or infusions and even then, those often continue on for years in the severe magnesium wasters. So a survey after using WW for a month's time is hardly indicative of anything.

Jackie

Jackie:

I am sure you were here during the time that Hans had the survey, I am not postive as to the length of time we were to take the WW, if as you say about the length of time for magnesium to help, I am sure Hans knew that. I believe the results of that survey was In one of Hans' monthly reports. Doesn't take long for magnesium to send me to the bathroom.

Liz

Well, Liz... you responded with information in your post that indicated the trial was for a month. Is that accurate or not? It's conflicting to make statements and then become vague about the time reference which is a very important and critical point when evaluating magnesium intake efficacy.

That quick bathroom trip can be because the magnesium doesn't make it inside your cells and is rapidly eliminated because it isn't assimilated.... That's a problem for people with membrane interference especially in the gut lumen of the villi where the magnesium is transferred from the intestine to the blood stream. Or, the magnesium can make it via the blood to the outer cell membrane but the magnesium receptors there are damaged and can't let the magnesium in, so it is also rapidly eliminated.

On the other hand, it can also be because your, magnesium stores are optimized intracellularly, and your body's natural mechanism keeps out the excess. Only the Exatest would be able to tell you that for sure.

As has been discussed many times at length and recently mentioned, the biochemical/biophysical individuality of each person comes into play in every instance. What one person tolerates, many do not and vice versa.

That doesn't mean that afibbers don't or can't benefit from the special magnesium bicarbonate ion from the WW, but most specifically, it's the fact that the WW provides the benefits of raising the pH and achieving alkalinity and therefore the energy or voltage that is needed for healthy cell function that makes the WW even more beneficial.

I know that whether or not I needed the magnesium, I'd be using it especially for the healing nature of alkaline tissue.

Jackie

Jackie:

If you read my post, I said that I wasn't "positive as to the length of time" I thought it was probably about a month. Whatever time it was, WW did not help most. You said it would take months or years to for magnesium to be optimized, I am sure Hans would have known that, yet he did conduct the survey, weren't you here at the time, if you were you should have told Hans that the survey was probably useless.

Liz

Anomaly is the way i have seen that one spelled, Anti. It was the right word, actually. I guess i will have to start referring to 50 medical anomalies from now on whenever i talk about session 61. I have still got questions about that, though.

If 50 people have this anomalous condition, is it still considered an anomaly? Will it stop being an anomaly only when your current EP sees 50 cases like this himself? [why do i assume this doctor is a male? No offense intended toward the relatively enlightened males who post here] Or only when it makes its way into the textbooks that new doctors memorize? I think this is like the perennial question that surfaces here from time to time about how old is elderly? How many of us does it take to unmake an anomaly?

PeggyM

LIZ:

Hans's surveys were never large enough to be statistically valid, they were however, better than nothing.

No I wasn't kidding about questioning your priority of listening to your Holistic Dr., over posters on here. I don't know your Dr., and your the one who has to make that call, since only you can see them face to face. I made a recovery far better than thought possible, and the "experts" My EP Dr.s and Cardiologists didn't do much to help me. It's like the more of a specialist they were the less helpful.

A point I was trying to make is that a real AFIB patient, or Dr. who has had AFIB, is more likely and more motivated to give good advice, than some "chicken-hawk" Dr. who spouts his mouth off about what to do about AFIB, but has never fought that battle themselves.

I just think you should make sure that you give the Mg a serious try, if haven't already. What ever course of action you take, it is important to believe in success. It has been shown that the Human Mind can have a psychokinetic effect on electrical currents. So having a positive or negative attitude can effect things. Stay away from negative Dr.s!

By the way I was trying to look through your old posts (many indeed), are you still taking Prednisone or other Anti-Inflammatories? Have you ever noticed a correlation with stopping the Anti-Inflammatories, and your AFIB?

Anti fib

Hans had surveys that were intended for this site, they were instructive for us which was appreciated.

That is a ridiculous statement about questioning my priority that I listen to my Holistic doctor over some posters, why should I go to him if I don't value his counsel. He does not treat my AF, I have an EP, he is very good and does not push a lot of drugs, I am vagal and he suggested that I take one anti arrhythmic drug at night before bed.

My Holistic doctor does believe in taking magnesium, I have taken it for years, but I am having problems with taking the same amount every day without a lot of cramping, you are assuming that I am against taking mag. Since I am having problems I have read that sometimes one can become intolerant to it, I have cut back on taking it. But, I will say that Mag. did not stop my AF episodes, it might have cut down on the episodes.

I started having episodes of AF in 1996, they were only a few times a year in the beginning, then AF started occurring at 2 or 3 weeks, that is when I started taking magnesium, now occurring in two or three months intervals and last around 12 hours. They haven't gotten worse, mag. could be a factor, don't know, but mag. does not stop AF for me and most others.

I do not go to my Holistic doctor for my AF, he does my blood work and advises me. That is another ridiculous statement that a doctor should have the disease In order to treat it, there would only be sick doctors, not a pretty sight.

Liz

Hello Elizabeth,

Many important writings on magnesium were 'absorbed' in the course of my bio-science studies, including two by biochemist Alan Gaby MD: Preventing And Reversing Osteoporosis (1994), and Magnesium (1998). In the latter there is an important message for those with AF who have learned that magnesium is important and try supplementing in hopes it will help:

As disease progresses, cells lose their ability to function properly. Most of the cells of the body maintain a very high magnesium concentration relative to that in the blood serum. For example, there is about 20 times as much magnesium inside the cells of a healthy heart as there is in the serum. This high concentration of magnesium is necessary for cells to perform their various biochemical tasks. However, maintaining this steep concentration gradient between cells and blood requires a great deal of energy. The laws of random motion cause magnesium ions to leak continually out of the cells and into the bloodstream. Each time a magnesium ion leaks out, another one must be pulled back in by special pumps that reside on the cell membrane.

Since magnesium deficiency may have been one of the original causes of the disease, a vicious cycle of greater deficiency and increasingly severe disease may result. A substantial minority of patients fail to improve after taking oral magnesium for months or even years. In these cases, administering magnesium by injection is necessary to overcome their medical problems.

You mention Hans Larsen not benefiting from magnesium?. Perhaps he was unaware of the above facts and didn't know his intracellular magnesium level as measured by ExaTest, or he might have had an RBC test and mistakenly thought he was fine. Red blood cell magnesium does not correlate with heart muscle cell magnesium. Do you know if he ever took magnesium by injection?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2015 04:54PM by Moerk.

Moerk:

You are new to this forum and do not know the history, Hans formed this site, he has written books about AF, he is one smart, very knowledgeable person, he can teach you not the other way around.

I have said that I have taken magnesium for years, IT DID NOT STOP MY AF, I am not against taking mag., it is vital for other functions.

Liz

Elizabeth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anti-Fib
>
> I was taking Magnesium Gly. that seemed to give me
> more problems, a lot of mag. supplements have Mag.
> oxide in them. Funny, but my Holistic doctor
> believes in Mag. Oxide, he says his patients have
> more luck with the oxide. So who is correct, some
> of the people on this forum or my Holistic Doctor.
> George takes different kinds of Magnesium and
> appears to have no problems.
>
> I have learned that natural means can to do a lot
> for your overall health, but there are times when
> it isn't enough and a medical approach needs to be
> looked at, sometimes both fail. Dr. Don Colbert,
> a Holistic doctor, of Orlando Florida, said he
> believes that drinking Alkaline water and taking
> his Green Super Food, which has a lot of super
> foods like Kale, spinach etc that has been
> fermented, is all you would need. He says he
> takes both and no longer takes any supplements, he
> has said that a lot of his patients cannot take
> supplements, as they upset their stomachs. I
> believe that some supplements do cause problems, I
> know I cannot take Natto. it gives me aural
> migraines.
>
> You seem to forget that Han and a number of people
> did try all kinds of methods, supplements, Waller
> Water, many other things, but they eventually got
> an ablation, they are just telling posters on here
> where the best ablation Doctors are which has
> helped quite a few posters.
>
> Liz

LIZ:

I was responding to your questioning who to believe regarding Mg-Oxide, as you postulated in the first paragraph of this post you submitted. You asked the question originally, not me, I just tried to answer it for you.

Well I commend you for being around for all these years of this Forum, to give that perspective. I commend you as well with your lengthy and successfull efforts at keeping your AFIB at bay. You seem a bit frustrated, and it's still not to late to throw in the towel, and get an Ablation, just be aware, that once you get your 1st Ablation, you are setting up the logical path for your 2nd and 3rd one as well. As you have pointed out about the major contributors to this site getting Ablations, that has been their path (that of multiple Ablations).

Anti Fib

Well we agree----it appears that for women, they get more than one ablation, at this point in my life I wouldn't want to look forward to two or three ablations.

Liz

Elizabeth,
I apologize for your misunderstanding. Magnesium scientist Alan Gaby was the teacher, not I. His teaching was quoted for benefit. My question to you was to gain knowledge, if possible, about why Mr. Larsen failed to benefit from magnesium. There are many possible reasons.

As disease progresses, cells lose their ability to function properly. Most of the cells of the body maintain a very high magnesium concentration relative to that in the blood serum. For example, there is about twenty times as much magnesium inside the cells of a healthy heart as there is in the serum. This high concentration of magnesium is necessary for cells to perform their various biochemical tasks. However, maintaining this steep concentration gradient between cells and blood requires a great deal of energy. The laws of random motion cause magnesium ions to leak continually out of the cells and into the bloodstream. Each time a magnesium ion leaks out, another one must be pulled back in by special pumps that reside on the cell membrane.

Pulling against a concentration gradient is analogous to swimming upstream or to carrying bowling balls up a hill, only to see them roll right back down. As inefficient as that sounds, that is how the body works. Indeed, a substantial proportion of the calories you burn each day are used to maintain higher concentrations of some nutrients inside cells than in the bloodstream.

When you become ill, some of the cells in your body may become less efficient in holding on to magnesium. The cell membranes may break down, allowing more magnesium to leak out. In addition, the cell membrane pumps that pull magnesium back in may also be weakened by disease. The end result is that disease itself can be a cause of magnesium deficiency. Since magnesium deficiency may have been one of the original causes of the disease, a vicious cycle of greater deficiency and increasingly severe disease may result .... a substantial minority of patients ... fail to improve after taking oral magnesium for months or even years. In these cases, administering magnesium by injection is necessary to overcome their medical problems.

[Further to the above insights by biochemist Alan R. Gaby MD:]

Kidney International, Vol. 52 (1997), pp. 1180—1195
PERSPECTIVES IN BASIC SCIENCE
Renal magnesium handling: New insights in understanding old problems [www.nature.com]
GARY A. QUAMME
Department of Medicine, University of British Columbia, University Hospital,
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

Our understanding of renal magnesium handling has been greatly expanded by research performed over this decade. Control of total body magnesium homeostasis principally resides withinthe nephron segments of the kidney. Magnesium is handled in different ways along the nephron segments (Fig. 1). About 80% of the total plasma magnesium (0.65 to 1.2 mM) is filtered through the glomerular membrane. Of the ultrafilterable magnesium (0.5to 0.9 mM), 5 to 15% is reabsorbed by the proximal tubule, including the convoluted and straight portions. This is distinct from sodium and calcium where — 70 and —60%, respectively, are reabsorbed in the proximal nephron segments. Accordingly, the delivery of magnesium to the thick ascending limb of the loop of Henle is relatively much larger than that of sodium and calcium. Proportionally greater amounts of magnesium (50 to 60%) are reabsorbed in the loop compared with sodium (20 to 25%) or calcium (30 to 35%). The loop of Henle, specifically the cortical segment, plays a major role in the determination of magnesium reabsorption. Of the 10 to 15% of the filtered magnesium that is delivered to the distal tubule from the loop of Henle, 70 to 80% is reabsorbed, leaving about 3% of the filtered magnesium normally appearing in the urine. As there is little evidence for significant magnesium absorption in the segments beyond the distal tubule, this portion plays an important role in determining the final urinary excretion. The cellular mechanisms of magnesium absorption within proximal tubule, loop, and distal tubule are very different and are distinct from calcium, but many of the controls are similar. This review discusses recent advances in our understanding of renal magnesium handling and some of the clinical implications of these observations (Table 1). The discussion is limited to recent observations, as more exhaustive reviews are available elsewhere [1—31.

(cont.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2015 01:12AM by Moerk.