Ginger & vagal afibbers

There have been several recent threads regarding ginger and vagal afibbers:

[www.afibbers.org]
<[www.afibbers.org];
[www.afibbers.org]

I'm very vagal and am seeing a positive response. I've never had GERD.

A quick summary of my afib history. Afib started about 8 1/2 years ago, most like brought on by chronic fitness. It was always a vagal trigger, mostly coming on at 3AM.

Initially I had episodes every 10-14 days for 6-9 hours. Self converting or with exercise. After 2 months progressed to a persistent episode that lasted 2.5 months. It was converted with a loading dose (300 mg) of flecainide. Started a supplement program including potassium, magnesium and taurine. This started out around 2 g/day K+, 800 mg/day Mg++ and 4g/day taurine. This has varied over time, with Mg generally increasing to as much as 3 g/day (always to bowel tolerance). Whenever this failed, I used 300 mg flec to convert, usually in an hour or less. Over 7 years, I used about 10 doses of flec -- a great track record.

At the beginning of this year, my wife wanted to separate and later divorce. I attribute an increase in episodes to divorce stress. However the greatest increase came as I perceived the stress had diminished markedly. The episodes kept increasing to the point that 5 or so weeks ago, they were every night, at 3AM, all terminated by 300 mg flec, though now taking as much as 4 hours to convert.

Reading the writing on the wall, I thought I was going to be soon booking a slot in Bordeaux.

As PC has posted, three components are necessary for LAF: arrhythmogenic substrate, autonomic dysfunction, and trigger. [www.afibbers.org]. In my case recently, autonomic dysfunction is key. If my ANS is "normal," I don't get afib. Hence I decided to try the vagolitic med propantheline bromide. To this end, I engaged a concierge cardiologist and convinced him to support this effort. As this is an off label use of the med and the med is not much used anymore, it would take a number of days to get the order into the pharmacy (I've yet to use the P.

In the mean time, I decided to use flec (this is under my direction, not the cardio's) prophylactically. The first night I tried 100 mg before bed (having used 300 mg every night the prior week to convert). I woke up in afib and ultimately needed another 300 mg to convert. The next night I used 300 mg before bed. This was nearly 5 weeks ago. This was successful. I then titrated to 200 mg. Again successful. This continued to be successful. However I'd still notice abnormal vagal responses at times before bed. On those nights, I'd take a bit more flec. I continued to slowly titrate down on the flec. Several weeks ago, I decided to start taking a heaping dinner spoon of powdered ginger morning and evening. Immediately, the abnormal vagal responses ceased and I became more confident and aggressive titrating the flec down. I recently quit taking the flec altogether and have been afib free since starting the prophylactic flec.

My analysis is that the vagolytic quality of the flec was at least partially responsible for my success using it prophylactically. This has been perhaps replaced with the vagolytic quality of the ginger - a much better answer, in my book!

I've continued with my supplement program throughout.

This is a dramatic turnaround in my afib remission program -- from nightly afib to no afib in 5 weeks. I know this is a relatively short time in the afib world and that things can change, but the results have been so dramatic I did not wan to wait to post. Thank you very much Hans for starting this, and for everybody else that took the bait and relayed their results!

George

Well done George. What a relief for you to find a way out of the downward spiral of increasing AF. I am interested to know whether the ginger powder is the sort you use for cooking and would buy at the supermarket or is it an herb product? Either way, how do you manage to make it palatable? A heaping dinner spoon is a lot of dry powder to swallow or do you take it in water?

Great news George! It's amazing what works sometimes. Ginger has been a big part of my post-ablation regimen.
Steve

Good for you, George. That's a great testimonial. Do you buy organic ginger powder or whatever is available at the grocery store?

There are other benefits with ginger as well.

"Ginger possesses numerous pharmacological properties,
the most relevant being its antioxidant and antiinflammatory effects;

also:
inhibition of prostaglandin thromboxane, and leukotriene synthesis;
inibition of platelet aggregation;
cholesterol-lowering actions;
choleretic effects; (stimulating bile)
cardiotonic effcts;
gastrointestinal actions;
thermogenic properties,
anti-ulcer properties,
and antibiotic activities."

Justine,

I'm using ginger from the spice rack that you'd use for cooking.

Steve,

Thanks!

A couple of clarifications. The Phorum software put in the smiley face, I'd intended to say I've not yet used the PB or propantheline bromide. I've noticed that my bowel tolerance level for magnesium has dropped to 1.4-1.6g/day. This is still a lot for most people but a dramatic reduction from 2.5-3g/day before using the ginger. I should make it clear that I've not had any afib since I started the prophylactic flec protocol and this has continued as I titrated the flec to 0 and added the ginger.

When I mentioned "abnormal vagal responses" I meant several things. If I ate something very cold, my heart rate might drop to 38 or 40. Getting prone in bed, my heart rate would drop likewise. Sometimes just sitting there, my heart rate might drop to 38 or 40. Also during the vagal aftermath of sex. These low rates were not always accompanied by ectopics, but could be. This was then an afib risk. Subsequent to taking the ginger this no longer happens. At I write this, my heart rate is 60 BPM. I ate some ginger 12 or 13 hours ago. My normal resting heart rate without the ginger is in the mid-50's.

George

George, I am pleased to learn that you are having positive results with ginger as well. I am always a little skeptical when it comes to solving medical problems with "natural remedies", but I have to say that ginger has helped me more than anything else since I had my ablation and went off all my precription drugs. It truly seems almost too good to be true.

Jackie,

It is organic ginger powder from the spice isle in the health food store.

So here is a question. Should I try to titrate the ginger dose down, may be only take it once a day, before bed? See what the minimum dose that is required? Are there any negatives to long term ginger use? Is the stimulant property of ginger an issue for the long term? Or not worry about it and be happy (I am ecstatic).

Thank you again Hans for suggesting this!!!!!

George

Justine,

You can find an excellent, organic, encapsulated ginger supplement in the afibbers.org vitamin shop [www.afibbers.org].

Hans



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2012 04:51PM by Hans Larsen.

George,

Congratulations! This is fantastic news. I have also received several private e-mails extolling the virtues of ginger supplementation.

Hans

So no connection with ginger in helping with Adrenergic fibbers like myself?
Nancy

Nancy,

Here is a link to the original research [www.afibbers.com]. I don't think ginger would be a good idea for adrenergic afibbers, but l-theanine should be quite effective.

Hans

Thanks. Already have l-theanine in my lineup.
Nancy

This is wonderful to hear, George! I am reading with interest as we have some Afib things in common. I have had afib for almost 10 years, am Vagal, and am on Flecainide now for about 5 years. I have a history of being a chronic belcher (sounds attractive, doesn't it?...which was reduced noticeably when I started the Flec. Burping used to bring on Afib quite often, making me afraid everytime I did burp.

I bought some New Chapter "Ginger Force" in the Vitamin shop a few weeks back, based on what Hans had written, but have been hesitant to take it. I'm always hesitant to try something new for fear of making things worse. I get Afib "kick-ups" approx. 4-8 times/month - which is MUCH better than the twice/daily I had been getting it prior to Flecainide.

Has anyone tried the Ginger Force and had good results as well?

Thank you for sharing your success, George. It's encouraging news.

Barb

George,

Re: "Are there any negatives to long term ginger use? Is the stimulant property of ginger an issue for the long term?"

I'd only say: the body "acclimatises" to most stimulants over time, eg caffeine, cocaine, which is exactly why people crave ever more, or get no kick from the usual dose. But fingers crossed for no acclimatisation in this case.

And I believe there is something called "The Ginger Jitters" (again, like most stimulants). But a small price for no AF.

Hi Ian,

Thanks! I looked up Ginger Jitters and it appears to occur at very high intake levels. This site talks about [www.naturalwellbeing.com] tolerance levels around 2 g/kg of body weight or about 1g/pound. Hans' 5g is, of course, waaaay under that. I'm guessing I'm in the 5-10g/day range. Your point about acclimation is a good one and argues for minimizing intake to the minimum amount necessary.

A little more digging indicates ginger may have anti-cholinergic properties, which is what propantheline bromide has. Ginger doesn't appear to have some of the more unpleasant side effects of PB, like dry mouth and photo sensitivity for the eyes.

George

New Chapter's Ginger Force recommends one softgel daily with food. That would be 96mg. of Ginger hydoethanolic extract, 54 mg. of Ginger supercitical extract and 5 mg. of Rosemary (Leaf) supercritical extract.

Any idea how that fits into the dosing recommendations?

Thanks ~ Barb

Hi George... glad it's organic and hopefully USDA certified as you don't want to be consuming any ginger made from roots grown in China and risk adding those toxic substances from their earth and water. I've mostly used organic ginger root grown in Hawaii if available. Quite often, the capsules have ginger from China.

As usual, the use of ginger for afibbers is undoubtedly highly individualized when it comes to tolerance and results... Since yours are excellent, I'd not want to rock the boat... although some slight tinkering may be appropriate. However, as you say..I'd just relax and enjoy. It's always comforting to know we can rely on natural, herbal remedies for so many conditions. Thanks for being our in vivo lab experiment! Be sure to keep us posted.

I had read that there is a preference for whole, fresh ginger in Michael Murray's book, The Healing Power of Herbs. The following facts are noteworthy for this discussion.

Quote
Pharmacology - Cardiotonic properties
Gingerol has shown poent cario tonic activity (positive ionotropic and chronotropic effects) on isolated guinea pig left atria. These effects are a result of acceleration of calcium intake by the heart muscle.

Individuals with heart problems or high blood pressure are probably better off using fresh ginger rather than dried preparations. This recommendation is based not only on the fact that gingerol is the more potent cardiotonic, but also because the shogaol (component) produces a blood pressure-elevating effect in animals. Gingerol is found predominantly in fresh ginger while shogaol is rarely found in fresh ginger.

Dosage
There remain many questions concerning the the best form of ginger and the proper dosage.
Most research studies have utilized 1 gram of dry powdered ginger root. Practically speaking, this is a small dose of ginger. For example, ginger is commonly consumed in India and at a daily dose of 8 to 10 grams. Furthermore, although most studies have used powdered ginger root, fresh (or possibly freeze-dried) ginger root at an equivalent dosage may yield even better results because it contains higher levels of gingerol as well as the active protease.

For treatment of nausea and vomiting due to motion sickness, pregnancy or surgery, a dosage of 1 - 2 grams of dry powdered ginger per say may be effective. This would be equivalent to approximately 10 grams or one-third of an ounce of fresh ginger root, roughly 1/4 inch slice. For inflammatory conditions such as RA, the dosage should be double this amount.

Toxicity
Some individuals consuming high doses, that is, greater than the equivalent of 6 grams of dried powder alone on an empty stomach, may experience some GI discomfort. Administration of 6 grams of dried powdered ginger has been shown to increase the exfoliation of gastric surface epithelial cells in human subjects. This could ultimately lead to ulcer formation. Therefore, it is recommended that doses on an empty stomach be less than 6 grams.

Ginger does not appear to be toxic. (end quotes)

(there is more on the toxicity in lab experiments ..but nothing that indicates we should be worried unless there is stomach irritation)

pp. 135, 139, 140
Prima Publishing
2005

IHerb carries an organic powdered ginger root (by Frontier) that would be cost effective for taking the higher doses.

Jackie -

Thanks! My new cardio said there is some book I should read about a guy who is always using their body as a chem-lab experiment. He seemed to think it would fit me...

I do normally toss a couple of swallows of water down after I throw the ginger in my mouth.

I don't think the fresh vs. powder really applies to me. They aren't referring to the electrical kind of heart problems, more the plumbing ones.

I obviously have no problem tinkering. I may start using a measuring spoon so I have a more precise idea how much I'm taking. I'll also down titrate the morning dose first, since daytime is never an issue for me anyway.

This approach really fits with what Dr. Reiffel was doing with propantheline bromide and the other vagolytic meds - attack the ANS issue. The electrolytes attack the trigger part of the equation, specifically lengthening the AERP - Atrial Effective Refractory Period.

Barb -

As to dosing, if it were me, I'd start with one capsule at meals (maybe at one meal) and see what happens. Specifically, I'd expect the ginger to help your belching. If you see anything negative, then quit. If you don't see a positive response, but no negatives, I'd add more.

George

Good advice, George - and common sense. thanks for that reminder ~ Barb

George,

"Titrating/minimizing intake to the minimum amount necessary" does seem ideal. But didn't want to suggest rocking the boat in any way. Go slowly.

Ian,

Great advice and what I would give others. My female friends continually remind me I don't have much of a frontal lobe, so it is advice I don't follow so well. In the storyline of this thread, I did a reasonable job of following it on titrating down the flec. I didn't follow it at all starting the ginger.

Besides afib, I have another guide to efficacy - vagal responses that are overly strong. This is what I used to guide my flec titration.

Jackie,

The ginger is USDA organic certified.

George

After reading the Ginger threads I too am on the ginger bandwagon. Can't wait for spring and the first fishing trip of the year.
By then I will be so full of ginger that only suicidal mosquitos will come near. If any do manage to extract my blood, they will likely go down in flames as the Ginger Jitters knocks out flight control .

Glen

Hi George,
Interesting.
I bought some of the ginger Hans recommends from his store a couple of months ago (having read something either here or in Hans' monthly newsletter), but haven't taken it yet. Your experiences and this thread in general is obviously making me reconsider.
The question is, how much of the supplement do I need to take per day and at what times of day? I've just paused to find the bottle - I have crammed the four bottles I bought into one (nice fit BTW) into one bottle and, as such, now have 240 New Chapter Ginger Force caps to go at.
Hans, if you're reading, does one in the am and one in the pm (say 9pm) sound about right?? Each softgel contains 96mg and 54mg hydroethanolic extract and supercritical extract respectively.
Congrats GEorge on the success with the ginger and here's hoping it helps buy you another year or three before needing a visit to Bordeaux. I'm in exactly the same boat as you in this regard - fending off AF as best I can affording time for ablation techniques to become yet further refined in terms of efficacy and safety.
Seasonal best wishes to all,
Mike

Hi Mike,

I tried to find information on the half life of ginger. Very little out there. Also, as ginger has many different components, they probably each have different half lives. About the only I saw was this [www.dr-bob.org] "I had read something that stated in a Danish study, researchers testing the effects of ginger on seasick naval cadets found that ginger pills reduced the cadets' nausea and vomitting providing relief for as long as 4 hours. So that 4 hour relief may be something of an indication of half life. "

My own experience is that it is longer. I generally take the ginger with dinner and breakfast. Since I usually eat at 6 or 7 PM, the ginger lasts long enough to cover my 3 AM vagal afib episodes.

When I started, I had no idea about dose, so went on the strong side and took a heaping dinner spoon 2x/day. In retrospect, I'm sure this is overkill. Yesterday I tried 1/2 teaspoon in the AM and 1 teaspoon in the PM. This worked (n=1, last night). As I write this my heart rate is about 66. This is relatively high for me. It is morning and I've not yet taken an AM dose. Also, I gave blood last night, and that may also increase my heart rate. Yesterday's dose is radically smaller than what I was taking previously. I'll probably stay at this level for a while and see what happens.

In your shoes, I'd start with one capsule AM and PM and see what happens. Do you have the abnormal vagal responses I've had to use as a guide?

Cheers,

George

George - since your HR is up slightly, have you checked your Bp as well? (as referenced in the finding that the shogaol content of dried ginger is known to increase Bp)... since you experimenting, it would be useful to know if your Bp is also affected.

Jackie

George,

I'm sure there are many watching your potentially very revealing experiment with interest. For that reason, I just mention something you've probably already thought of - just in case, 'cos no-one would want it to fail (or appear to fail), or even just get more complicated, for some overlooked reason.

You say: "Several weeks ago, I decided to start taking a heaping dinner spoon ... morning and evening". So, if "acclimatisation" is a reality, some has probably already occurred - as it would in that timespan (partially?, fully?) in the case of, say, caffeine. In that case, 1+1/2 teaspoons will already have less effect than they would on a "cleanskin" patient! So if that dose fails, don't despair (as I'm sure you wouldn't) - it may work again a few days later once your body had "reacclimatised" to lower doses.

Similarly, if 1+1/2 works, it may be best not to lurch immediately to an even lower dose. You may still be "washing-out" some of the previous higher doses, depending on the half-life, exactly as you say. In that case, not only is 1+1/2 already a [[i]b]much[/b][/i] lower dose; not only may it be effectively even [[i]b]lower[/b][/i] due to "acclimatisation" as above; but half-life effects may still be falling, and so immediately ratcheting to an even lower dose may be [[i]b]asking[/b][/i] for trouble!

Safer would be to stick with 1+1/2 for a few days, to allow "catch-up" of half-lives. And then titrate slowly to even lower doses. You may have already made a big part of any possible reduction?

Jackie,

I gave blood last night and my systolic BP was a bit higher, but I am subject to white coat syndrome, so it could be a bit of that. However there usually isn't a lot of white coat for me donating blood. When I took it myself this morning, it was 104/60. This compares with 102/48 on 30 Nov - pre ginger. Pre divorce stress it was usually in the 90's over 50's. My BP does have variability so I'm not sure I can tell a lot.

Ian,

I understand. I realize I took a huge step down in dose. My previous dose did need to be followed with water to swallow. The 1 & 1/2 tsp doses do not. I plan to hang out at this level for a while.

If the 1 + 1/2 dose failed, I'd immediately go back to my prior dose and then take the sensible route to slowly titrate down in small increments. The first prophylactic dose of flec I tried was 100 mg. That failed and required an additional 300 mg to convert (at least in the time I was willing to give it). So I started the next night at 300, with success, then 200 and success, then a much slower titration. Additionally, during this titration process, I was not shy about taking more flec if I noticed an overly strong vagal response. As long as I got those strong responses, I felt at risk for afib. When I started taking the ginger and these ceased, I was much more confident about reducing the flec. Even so, I took a reasonable time to titrate to 0 flec. It is estimated the washout time is about 4 days for flec (of course this would vary by individual depending upon the half life of flec in THEIR system). Just saying this to show I do pay SOME attention to reason when I experiment.

I appreciate your guidance and cautions!

George

George,

Good plan.

And in case there seemed any suggestion to the contrary: no, it's perfectly clear that there's way more than "some" reasoning in your experiments - they, and your reports upon them, are always the most orderly reported on here.

Sorry, also meant to ask: What is/are the "overly strong vagal response(s)" you refer to?

Ian,

For example, intake of something very cold might (but not always) drop my heart rate to say 38 or 40. This may or may not be accompanied by a lot of ectopic beats. I'd put frozen blueberries in a bit of almond milk and eat them, this could sometimes cause this reaction. Last summer, I helped a friend move. It was a hot day. When done, she gave me a large glass of cold water over crushed ice. I downed it quickly. This put me into afib.

Sometimes, just getting my body prone might do this. I went to bed to go to sleep one evening and my pulse slowed and had many ectopics. I got up and ran up and down the stairs. This took care of the problem, while I was standing, but it would reoccur getting back in bed. I finally took flec to settle it down (this happened in the pre-ginger days). The flec has a vagolytic property, so it worked. I also chew my flec whenever I take it to increase the speed of getting into the system.

Also the vagal aftermath of orgasm/ejaculation. The is always a good test as my heart beat is very strong at this point and I can easily feel it in my chest. It is very comforting to feel it as it slows down and is very regular. Likewise it is not comforting if it goes into ectopics, which could lead to afib. I can generally stop this by standing up and moving around (which naturally increases my heart rate) and my partner knows what the story is if I do, but it is not the most romantic thing you can do at this point...

Above I wrote "orgasm/ejaculation" because, for men, there may be a difference in heart rate response. When I queried my then wife about being able to feel her heart in the aftermath of her orgasm, she did not. She could feel mine, as my beat was so strong. I make a point of this as the Taoist's have an approach to separate orgasm from ejaculation for men. Learning this approach effectively gives males the ability to have the same kind of orgasms that females do and not be "spent" afterward. I'm speculating that for male affibers where ejaculation is a trigger, the trigger may be the ejaculation not the orgasm. If this is true, then learning to orgasm without ejaculating might eliminate or minimize this trigger. One book that describes this is The Multi-Orgasmic Man by Mantak Chia and Douglas Abrams [www.amazon.com]. I'm investigating this and it will take some practice and learning.

These abnormally strong vagal responses are a recent appearance for me, this year. They did not occur in past years. In the past, the vagal response after ejaculation might bring ectopics, but never afib. I have Polar heart rate monitor recordings during sleep (recording every beat), where my heart rate dropped to 38 or 40, but ectopic rates did not increase.

I do not know what has changed. In the past, just keeping my electrolytes up was sufficient to keep the afib at bay, now the autonomic nervous system must be addressed, too. I feel fortunate that the ginger is working to address this.

By the way, I'm writing this at about 7 AM and the 1 + 1/2 tsp ginger approach worked again last night. My heart rate is 64 BPM, again, not too low.

George

I should note that a feature of my reduced ginger intake seems to be an increased bowel tolerance for magnesium. I'm not sure how much yet.

Ok, yes, I'm familiar with all those vagal responses.

64 is good. I've had the idea for years, presumably based on reading, that the Babylonians, while liking the number 12, also sought to divide the day into time units based on the only regular short-term rhythm they had - the human pulse. This would be completely understandable and logical. Hence the 60 - 60 - 24 division of the day. If this is correct, it means that the average Babylonian pulse rate was 60. So what? Well, 5,000 years ago they were certainly all incredibly active by modern standards, every minute they were awake, but, at the same time, it was all in a very, very, natural way, with no artificial excercise excesses, and lots of other aspects of modern life absent.

So maybe 60 is perfect and natural. And maybe heart rates below that, of super-fit people, are not better. There's plenty of recent evidence about inflammation from endurance exercise etc - covered on this website of course. About a year ago, I saw a study indicating increased longevity with decreased resting heart rate, but only down to 64. Below that there was no further gain. Given the problems for vagal afibbers at slow rates, it seems likely that 60-64 is ideal. And given the Babylonians may have massaged the numbers to get a neat 60-60-24 fit, maybe 64 is best of all???? (Although, can't remember how wide the heart-rate statistic intervals were in the study).

Last night we had dinner about 4:30 PM (very early for me) and then went out. I took my 1 tsp ginger then. At 10:30 PM, when I got prone in bed, my HR was very slow (didn't bother to get an actual count) but regular. I got up and took a heaping 1/2 tsp of ginger. I went back to bed and my HR rectified over a half an hour or so. Woke up early in the morning and HR was normal (60ish). So I should probably take my ginger around an hour before bed not 6 hours before. I believe Hans suggested this in his original post - of course I always need to discover things for myself...

George

I am 69, tall, medium build; vagal 10 years plus. I take 150mg propafenone at 4pm and 300mg at 11 pm each day. I take 1 teaspoon potassium gluconate and 0.9g magnesium glycinate split into two doses morning and evening. I also take 1 drop of iodine in the form of 15% Lugols. I meditate for half an hour twice a day. I walk 3 to 4 miles a day. I eat SAD mainly, especially at Christmas but I have plenty of seafood, salad and fruit. I do not touch alcohol. I have 2 or 3 episodes of afib a year, nearly always at night, once or twice early evening; I take 450mg propafenone and two zopiclone sleeping pills hoping it will have stopped by the time I wake up in the morning and so far this has worked except once. I have gone through phases of a lot of ectopic beats especially at night. The number of episodes has not changed much but the ectopic beats have increased steadily.

The day before yesterday I began taking fresh ginger. I fine-shredded some fresh ginger, a gram or two, and added it to a glass of cold water. I then drank it all. I prefer the idea of fresh to dried. The fresh ginger I have used is not organic, but if I can find it I will use that.

The effect has been immediate. From two or more ectopic beats per minute to no ectopic beats at all, just a steady and calm heart beat. Incredible and wonderful. I feel that if this continues I will be able to cut the propafenone to one pill last thing at night, with the aim of discontinuing it and using it only as PIP. I prefer to make changes gradually.

Thank you Hans and George for your information and example.

Just before bedtime, I've been drinking ginger/lemon tea with some fresh finely shredded ginger added. I add some honey to the mixture to make it palatable.
I've only been doing this for ten days, so it is too early to say if it is helping.
My afib has been dead steady at two week intervals +- one day for almost two years now, so I'll know soon enough and will report here.
Unfortuantely I'm lacking the detailed info that George has provided, but hopefully if this works it will add a brick to the wall.
If it doesn't, no surprise, my afib is a mix of types, adrenergic and vagal.

Glen

Well, the ginger did fail after I went off the wagon, diet wise, Christmas day. I normally eat a very low carb (ketogenic) diet. We went to a Christmas party starting around 1 PM Christmas day. Even before we ate dinner around 5 PM, I noticed I was getting a PAC about every sixth beat (most likely from chowing down on carby appetizers). I took some K+, Mg++, taurine and ginger. This did away with the PAC's. I continued chowing down on carbs through dinner and desert. I did take extra ginger before bed. However I awoke at 3 AM, in afib. Most likely from a hypoglycemic episode. Fortunately 300 mg of flec converted me in 70 minutes.

To get back on plan the next day I fasted for 24 hours, then started my normal low carb eating. Everything is working again. Pulse is rock steady NSR all night, even in the aftermath of early morning orgasm. Ginger works well, but can't overcome my wild abandon...

Best plan is to stick to my normal eating routine. Second best plan would be to pretreat with flec before bed if I fall off the wagon with food.

Glen & Peter, I'm glad it looks like success for you!

George

Ah, George! Sigh. At least you totally understand the dynamics of the whole process. We can certainly learn from your experiments and I'm loving your success with ginger. Don't forget that when you break your routine with 'foreign' foods, you alter your pH and therefore your voltage which sets up the ectopics and potentially, AF. The Holidays are predictable hazards for afibbers.

Have a Healthy New Year.
Jackie

Jackie,

Thanks! Yes, I've consumed some Waller Water as part of my Mg++ intake to help increase pH.

I wish you well in the New Year, too!

George

George,

Unfortunately you may now be in that "window of immunity" we're all familiar with, which follows an episode, thus making it very hard to judge the efficacy of the ginger. Best may be to steadily maintain the doses and timing you were using up to the event (1.5 + .5 ?)???

That way, at least both the half-life effects of the earlier large doses, and most of any "acclimatisation" to the later, steady dose, will have stabilised by the time the immunity has vanished, and at least you'll be able to get a decent check of the long-term utility of that particular steady dose. Since no-one has any idea of the half-lives of the numerous active ginger compounds, or of any degree of acclimatisation, any changes now would just complicate things greatly - if you got another breakthrough you wouldn't know whether you were coming or going. But hey, you're the driver.

Unfortunately it's likely there'll need to be an extensive period of experimentation by many to determine efficacy. Obviously this may also vary by individual. One whose episodes totally occur nocturnally may benefit best by a single dose pre-bed (when? what dose?), so as to minimise any acclimatisation and concentrate all effects in the relevant period, and may be able to handle any negative "rebound" effects from falling levels during the day. Another who is mainly nocturnal but has occasional daytime incidents may find that that approach fails and therefore need to maintain more constant levels, presumably with equal doses 2 x 12 hours, or even 3 x 8 hours???

Ian,

My history from 6-7 weeks ago, before I started my pre-bed flec, was no window of immunity (or perhaps 24 hours, depending upon how you look at it). I was getting afib nightly and converting with 300 mg flec. When I did a back-of-the-envelope calculations using a 12 and 24 hour half-life for the flec, I came up with an on-going serum level equivalent to 400-600 mg.

Given that, and that morning sex (which I'm blessed to have daily), 10-12 hours after taking ginger is a great test, I'd argue that the efficacy of the ginger is continuing. However the underlying message of your post is to continue on the 1/2 & 1 tsp dose for the foreseeable future. I concur and plan to do this.

The sex really is a good test. Even without afib, if I do not have a single premature beat in the aftermath, it is a signal my heart is happy.

I'm also getting no excessive vagal responses, another good indication of success.

I am back on my eating routine and plan to stay there. Alcohol has not historically been a trigger. I'm on holiday with my partner and routinely have 2-3 evening glasses of white wine, with no ill effect.

You are correct, it will take some time for a definitive answer. As usual, the answer will be an individual one, too. However, my results and those of others are encouraging enough that trial usage of ginger by other vagal afibbers is warranted, in my opinion.

George

George,
Enjoying your posts.
Nothing wrong with your libido!
Yes I get the usual indicators of over-active 'vagality'. Cold drinks usually give an ectopic or two. Tripping whilst walking in the rocks on my local coastline will almost always give an ectopic. Sex-wise for me the getting aroused part can often lead to copious ectopics as can post-orgasm.
As an unrelated aside, on Xmas day I went out for two long walks - the second ended with a fast hike up a steep hill to the car: pushed it a bit too hard and my HR on flec (75mg BID) doean't readily go above 145 or so even at full tilt, and upon arriving back at the car and bending down to pull my boots off I noticed some ectopy and then 10 seconds or so of what felt like aflutter at 200BPM or so - almost as if my heart was set on finding a way to up the ventricular rate regardless of the vagolytic action of the Flec! Soon back to NSR no AF - touch wood and to date since first AF in 1987 never had AF at any other time than 11pm to 8am.
First 6 months of 2012 I had no alchohol and low carb diet - lost 2 stone. Last 6 months gradually became lax (annoyingly gained a stone back....) and really let it all hang out crisps, sweets, carbs and alchohol- wise particularly this last week, so am now set on getting back on the low carb no alchohol program on New Year's day - might well go the full year this time and, who knows, maybe beyond - I need to get my s**t together and after two or three weeks I don't even miss the sweets, crisps and booze anyway, so no need to start it again really. Trouble with me is I don't do moderation - all or nothing!!
Ginger-wise I'm using one cap am and one cap 7pm. I also use a joint supplement that contains ginger. If I take a cap at bed-time it tends to keep me a bit too wired to sleep. I also note that the ginger elevates my HR to the mid-60s.
All the best to you George (and Hans and all other forumees) for 2013 (-:
Mike

Hi Mike,

I understand about all or nothing. I've been accused of that...

I've been weight stable on my low carb plan for 3 or so years. Originally, I took off 2 1/2 stone that I'd accumulated when I played American football at university. I really enjoy having the ketones as an alternative energy source when I'm keto-adapted. I'm not always super strict diet-wise, but make sure I stay keto-adapted. Even when I stray, it is probably low carb compared to the rest of the world, except for Christmas.

I really didn't pay attention to my HR during exercise when I was taking flec pre-bed. I didn't perceive any difference, but wasn't monitoring.

I do recall the EP blogger, Dr. Mandrola, suggesting that getting prone after taking flec was a good way to reduce the probability of atrial flutter. This is normally what I do, instead of taking a BB.

Cheers and total NSR in 2013 to you!!!

George

George,

Sorry, forgot your nightly attacks and no window of immunity. That, plus the evidence from you dutifully forcing yourself to adhere to your comprehensive morning test schedule in the interests of science(!), seem to argue for efficacy as you say.

Re "All or Nothing" as a lifestyle: how many men recognise this? It's something about Hunters and Gatherers - the intense focus of the Hunter, versus the relaxed opportunism of the Gatherer (Shopper).

Ian,

The efficacy of the ginger continues unabated, and I continue to adhere to the morning test schedule (the interests of science have primacy!). The lack of excessive vagal response anytime as well as ectopics during morning testing give me confidence the ginger is an effective agent.

For the benefit of others reading this, I want to emphasize that additionally I continue to take 2 grams/day of potassium as citrate, magnesium to bowel tolerance (which for me is currently around 2 grams/day - 1 gram as dimagnesium malate, 600 mg as MgCl2 (magnesium chloride) in water and 400 mg as magnesium bicarbonate (from Waller Water [www.afibbers.org] concentrate) and 4 grams/day of taurine powder. For me, the ginger might lose its effectiveness if I quit the electrolytes and I am loathe to try.

George

I have successfully (including mandatory morning testing) titrated down to just the evening dose of 1 tsp ginger.

Given where I was 6 weeks ago, this is truly a remarkable, simple and low impact solution for vagal afib.

Thanks again Hans!!!

George - that's absolutely wonderful... non invasive, natural beats drugs and surgical procedures any day!
Great news.
Jackie

George,

This is great news! Thank you for your sharing and your diligent experimentation. Any chance you could write a short journey story for The AFIB Report so that this development can be brought to the attention of afibbers not participating on the Bulletin Board?

Hans

Hans,

Of course, I'd be delighted to!

George

Great thread.. I'm am trying the ginger too. If it works It will be a god send.

The ginger can be hard to take dry (and possibly dangerous as it can make you cough and choke). So i'm mixing it with milk. Would that be ok ? I found it burns my stomach a bit too, so the milk helps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2013 07:39PM by LarryK.