Experiences thus far (newbie) - help appreciated

This is my first post here, but I have lurked for a week or so, and wow, lots of good info. Do I even belong on this forum if my case was diagnosed as “flutter” by my EP and not “a-fib” per se? He says there is a chance mine will turn into a-fib. Assuming you accept me here, here is my story thus far:

In Jan 2012, I got short of breath walking up a hill and my heart felt fluttery. That was my first episode, but as I look back I recall some PACs in the previous summer. Saw my family doc for it the hill episode and others like it after that, and after wearing the Holter monitor he sent me to the EP I am seeing now. I was diagnosed in March 2012 with “atrial flutter” based on Holter monitor results and EP interview. My EP also did an echocardiogram and he said my heart looked “strong, a little thick, but all the valves look good”. He never used the words “lone” with the words “atrial flutter” but I have deduced this to be the case since he says my heart has no structural defects. At the time I first saw him (March 2012), I was having flutter for an average of a half hour every other day (episodes of 5 min to 3 hrs duration). My EP mentioned Flecainine and Tikosyn as options, but Fecainine apparently has some prostrate interaction (I have enlargement) and Tikosyn requires 3-day hospital stay to set the dose, so we went for the moment with Multaq (half of 400 mg tab 2x per day). I had not found this site at the time, or I might have gone for the Tikosyn. At the end of a month on Multaq, I was still having same frequency/duration of attacks (i.e., ineffective) so he told me to stop it and he prescribed amiodarone. But I researched that and refused it for now. Now (April 2012) I am up to 2-3 hrs of flutter each day and have been off Multaq for a little over a week before I could see him again. Today he put me on Multaq at twice the previous dose (whole 200 mg tab 2x per day).

Sometime in the last week or so I found this site, and saw the references to dissimilar metals, and well duh! I realized I just had my dental implant completed about a month (May 2011) before I started getting PACs (skipped beats) in summer 2011. They were rare then, only during aerobics in the gym, so I did not think much of it, but now 9 months later I have flutter. Anyway, my dental implant is a titanium post (screwed into jawbone) with an abutment screwed into it (made of zinc? maybe, still researching that), with a gold crown atop the abutment. So, dissimilar metals out the wazoo in direct contact and bonded with each other, with timing that gives circumstantial evidence for a possible cause for precursors of the current arrythmia. So I am having the gold crown and the abutment removed tomorrow morning, and I will go back to a cap screwed into the titanium post for now (still some dissimilar metals, but the big chunk of gold and the zinc? abutment will be gone). If I see a big improvement with this move, I may get the titanium post in my jawbone removed as well – periodontist has to do that part and there is a recovery period (drilling of bone).

FYI, neither my EP nor the periodontist buy into the theory that galvanic currents affect heart rhythms, but we shall see, I hope. Will keep you posted on that.

Another “beast” I should mention. I have had Meniere’s disease since 2002 (vertigo, drop attacks, hearing loss in one ear, tinnitus) but have had it under control in recent years, apart from an annual cluster of balance problems. For it I am on a strict lo-sodium diet, also with fresh fruits and veggies, fish, and chicken, etc, so my diet is great. I avoid Meniere’s triggers (I know what they are, still learning mine for the flutter) and keep a diary, which I have extended to include the atrial flutter episodes. I take supplements (2x fish oil, flaxseed oil, vitamin E, bioflavonoids, zinc, multivitamins) and some other stuff in addition to Triamterene/hctz (K-sparing diuretic) and Evoxac (for dry eyes and mouth – a touch of Sjogren’s syndrome). Yep, I am an autoimmune disaster, or at least I was when I got Meniere’s.

I can’t imagine that I have a nutritional deficiency with my pristine diet and supplements for Meniere’s, but as I get older, it is highly possible. So I ordered the iHerb stuff (magnesium, potassium, taurine supplements) prominently mentioned on the LAF site. I am getting my family Dr involved for regular testing of liver and thyroid function. My potassium has dropped from 4.5 mEq/mol over the last 30 yrs to 3.9 now (I just turned 60). I have found by accident that taking an Airborne (immune booster with vitamins E, C, A, magnesium, echinachea, and other stuff) will stop my flutter attacks. At first it stopped PACs and flutter immediately, now it stops them after 20 min of flutter. I thus have big hopes for the supplements. I mentioned this as possible nutritional deficiency cause for my flutters, but the EP had no comment other than he did not think it was due to that.

I would appreciate any feedback on any of the above experience that might help with the atrial flutter. I am a babe in the woods on this new disorder so I am still studying all the AF recommendations. Oh yeah, I have no attacks while sleeping, only during waking hrs, and usually just after I get up. Hard exercise (aerobics) can cause it, but mild activity (working around the house) seems to help it. From what I read, this would mean I am mainly “adrenergic” with maybe a little “vagal” type too.

Sorry for the lengthy post. Thanks much, and best to all of you.

Regards,
GH

"but the EP had no comment other than he did not think it was due to that. ..."

They [medical doctors of any stripe] never think it was due to that. Try the magnesium, potassium, and taurine anyway. It cannot hurt anything.

PeggyM

GeHauser:

I am posting in regards to your dental work---I have had dental implants, I have two with the titanium post screwed into the jawbone, no gold crown. I have had these implants for a number of years, no relationship to my AF. I orginally got an episode of AF when my thyroid meds were too high and I got hyper which gave me AF, seems like once you get an episode the heart remembers and you can then get more episodes. Dental implants are very expensive, I would be very doubtful that your implant is causing your flutter, titanium is used quite often as the body doesn't reject it.

I am vagal, I would wake up with AF, my EP suggested that I take one tablet of Propafenone (150mg.) at night before bed, that has helped me a lot, my afib episodes of AF have greatly decreased, I get one in 3 months, perhaps a little longer or once in a while a little less. I do take Magnesium, I do not take Potassium, my Pot. levels are around 4.7, so I don't need any additional supplements. I also take B vitamins, Vit C, Biotin, evening primrose oil, vit K-2 (for bones), I do take flaxseed oil, I take that because fish oil bothers me. I don't know why you take Flaxseed oil and fish oil, seems like one or the other would be sufficient.

If you have A-Flutter, that is easily taken care of by an ablation, has your EP mentioned that to you? Sometimes diet and supplements work very well and sometimes not, you have flutter which is different than AF. I personally am not of the mind that taking salt is bad, in fact, I believe we need some salt, but the right kind, Celtic sea salt, which I buy in my health food store.

Liz

Thanks Liz and PeggyM.

Well I had the gold crown and the abutment (unknown metal) removed this morning. Did not have my usual morning flutter episode so I was very hopeful, but alas, I started one in the afternoon and am still having it as I write this.

I should get the supplements today or tomorrow.

My EP says I am a candidate for ablation, but he says that is a short term solution with risks, and he is in this for the long term with me. He says if we did the ablation, it would work for awhile, but I would be back in 1-5 yrs with a-fib not flutter, and that I would be mad at him. He says he likes to do the ablations, and if he was in this for the short term, that is what we would be doing right now. But in it for the long term, he wants me on the Multaq doubled down. I have not started that yet, to give the mouth metal removal and supplements a chance.

I am on lo-so for the Meniere's not the flutter. It is imperative for my Meniere's to avoid vertigo and other symptoms.

GH,

Assuming you take the hctz diuretic for high BP (why else?), you could think of the arrhythmia in terms of cardiac voltage, because high BP, low voltage, and arrhythmia go together via reduced activity of the sodium/potassium pumps that generate the cardiac cells' voltage.

Low voltage will raise BP via decreased sodium outside the cells which in turn keeps calcium in the arterioles' muscle cells disallowing full relaxation which increases flow resistance and blood pressure.

Low voltage increases the probability of dysrhythmia via alteration in electrolyte movements during each heartbeat, e.g. inhibition of 'fast inward sodium channels' during phase -0- of the cardiac action potential. See CR 72 The Potassium/Sodium Ratio in Atrial Fibrillation [www.afibbers.org]

> "My potassium has dropped from 4.5 mEq/mol over the last 30 yrs to 3.9 now" Serum K 3.9 mEq/L is much too low for optimal cell voltage, and probably indicates your K to Na intake ratio. is less than the desirable 4 to 1. Serum K should be at least 4.5 mEq/L.

Optimizing cardiac voltage also reduces the possibility for rhythm disruption by signals from dissimilar metals.

It has been shown that 95% of high BP in the US is caused by too little dietary potassium and too much sodium, and that having potassium intake at least 4 times that of sodium normalizes the vast majority of high BP.

Be well!

Erling.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2012 10:42AM by Erling.

Gehauser,

A successful catheter ablation, if done by an experienced and highly skilled EP, is not a "short-term" solution. For more on this see the 2009 ablation/maze survey [www.afibbers.org].

Hans

Thanks Erling and Hans for helpful feedback.

I can't really report progress from the gold removal because the day after the gold removal I started the Mg supplements. However, for the several days preceding the gold removal I was having 2-3 hrs of flutters daily, and the day the gold was taken out I had only 1.3 hrs of flutters (before any Mg was added other than 3 Airborne chewables, which have Mg in them). One day is not enough data to call it a trend, but I did not want to delay the Mg supplementation.

But wow, my flutters have almost stopped since I started Mg supplements (at 3/4 the bottle recommended dosage).

But my blood pressure is elevated now (140/84 compared to normal 120/75). Is this a normal response to the Mg supplementation?

Best regards,
GH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2012 07:12PM by gehauser.

Erling Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Assuming you take the hctz diuretic for high BP
> (why else?),

I take the diuretic to shed water because fluid buildup is detrimental to Meniere's. But I also take it for blood pressure. I was on 2 diuretics for awhile (one prescribed by my GP for blood pressure and the other prescribed by my neurotologist for Meniere's, but it lowered my BP so much we dropped back to one diuretic). So the short answer is I take it as a water pill and for BP control.

GH, Seems like your EP has it backwards as for long term efficacy of drugs compared to ablation. When done at experienced centers and monitored for 5 years, it is not even close. Ablation is far better. CABANA trial results are continually being release and that will be the definitive study comparing the two approaches, that one is being coordinated by Mayo Clinic. Biosense Webster (Johnson and Johnson subsidiary) had to do a trial to get their catheters approved for AF ablation and their trial results were release a couple of years ago with long term comparisons between ablation and drugs. Again, it was not even close. Drugs lose effectiveness much faster than ablation. Both of those sets of results are available from the FDA and widely monitored and distributed. The more cynical side of me thinks that an EP that said what he said to you is probably milking his AF patients, and he is probably not very skilled at ablations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 10:47AM by researcher.

GH - since Meniere’s is associated with magnesium deficiency, as is AF, keep pushing your dosing of magnesium supplements to bowel tolerance and consider making the Magnesium Water (WW) to augment as well.

If you drink too much water, as Ken mentions, you can flush out much of the important electrolytes, so don't over-do. Additionally, most sources of water are acidic in nature so drinking the WW increases your alkalinity which helps increase voltage and makes huge health improvements versus a low pH. The diuretic is definitely at cross-purposes for maintaining adequate electrolytes.

Regarding implants, it is very important during explanting that the procedure also include removing (curretting out) any diseased, infected bone so that the extraction site heals well. Otherwise, the residual infection can be an ongoing, systemic problem. A biologic dentist will know how to handle that and if you don't have one, it would pay to locate one.

If you replace the implant, go for Zirconium which is carbon and doesn't lower voltage in the bone and support infection. Titanium implants are electron stealers which lower voltage in the area as well as the tooth meridian and the corresponding organ... which might be your ears or heart depending on which tooth.

Jackie

GH,

The researcher called Researcher seemingly researches only invasive methods and equipment and their track record in eliminating / alleviating the symptom called atrial arrhythmia, which likely indicates things wrong throughout all 75 +/- trillion body cells. Take care of their nutritional / biochemical / electrolyte needs first and you might be happily surprised to see the arrhythmia symptom disappear.

Your very low serum potassium is a glaring indicator of electrolyte deficit in all cells.

Erling
===============================

Jackie, you wrote:

> If you drink too much water, as Ken mentions, you can flush out much of the important electrolytes, so don't over-do. Additionally, most sources of water are acidic in nature so drinking the WW increases your alkalinity which helps increase voltage and makes huge health improvements versus a low pH. The diuretic is definitely at cross-purposes for maintaining adequate electrolytes.

Ken's statement in his reply to Maria seems ill-founded. As we know, the general recommendation for water is 1 1/2 to 2 liters / quarts per day, which is right in line with biochemist pathologist Russell Beckett PhD's recommended consumption of Unique Water (same as WW)..

Erling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 02:04PM by Erling.

Erling, I am not against supplements or meds, so try those first. I take potassium daily via 2 bananas and fish oil, exercise daily and eat healthy. However, if you are on supplements and failed AAD's. What Erling would you tell some one like GH. I could easily call your research rubbish but I refrain because I know a lot less than there is to know. If there is a silver bullet solution for everybody with AF, this forum wont exist.

And BTW, if you have charts and graphs like those available from the NIH sponsored trials comparing the effectiveness of your preferred supplementations to AAD or ablation. Please post them. I like quatifiable facts and I am sure many other readers would greatly appreciate it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2012 03:04PM by researcher.

Thanks Erling - I didn't respond carefully enough... Obviously, the low potassium is the culprit and drinking an alkaline water such as Unique Water or WW would also be beneficial.... however, it's well supported that people who drink unusually high amounts of water do flush out their electrolytes and that imbalance does cause a lot of problems.

I agree that invasive procedures by no means address the nutritional deficits or systemic dysfunctions. Finding the right combination takes time and diligence and willingness to 'tinker' in order to find what works for that individual's uniqueness.

I'm responding to your historical review of the health benefits of drinking alkaline water and how it affects cell voltage which is the key for reversing all ailments including atrial fibrillation. Be sure to check it out.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie,

The dogma that too much water flushes away needed electrolytes doesn't take into account the water's pH. In view of your understanding about the value of consuming alkaline water, as in your quotes from Dr. Jerry Tennant just now,* do you think the dogma should be revised / clarified? - i.e., the dogma is valid if the water is acidic, but maybe not valid if it's alkaline?

Erling

*[www.afibbers.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2012 04:24PM by Erling.