I've been studying the factors that determine tissue pH, after having an dramatic experience taking Waller Water (basically {pun!}, my many annoying symptoms disappeared about 7 hours after I started drinking Waller Water.

The speed with which the improvement happened, combined with the fact that I had been supplementing religiously with Mg for many months before, led me to suspect that my improvement might not be due to the Mg. In turn, this led me to they hypothesis that it might be basic nature of the Waller Water that deserves the credit.

I'm reading a book called "The Ultimate pH Solution". The author asserts that body fat acts as an acid-buffering system and that many chronically skinny people have a malfunctioning fat buffer system. When this happens, the body needs to break down more non-fat tissues (e.g. bone and muscle) to buffer acidity, and this leads to chronic thinness.

I am nothing if not chronically skinny. I'm 5'8", and about 125 lbs. I've weighed exactly this much since I was 14 years old and I'm now 32. Two interesting and possibly related facts:

1. Sometimes, when I increase my caloric intake, I lose weight, even when I'm relatively sedentary.
2. I've broken 10 bones.

These facts, along with my response to Waller Water, are consistent with the hypothesis expressed in the book, and it's intrigued me. Of course, these facts are also consistent with other problems, such as long-term candida overgrowth, and certain food allergies. Nonetheless, I haven't heard of the "screwed up fat-buffering" hypothesis, and I'm wondering what the community here thinks of it/ knows about it.

The book, though it's written intelligently and in an authoritative voice, is not well-referenced, making it hard to come to independent conclusions about the quality of the author's assertions.

Nick,

This is very interesting and thought provoking. How long have you been using the Waller water? My husband Mike is also very skinny. He is 6'5" and weighs about 185. He doesn't eat much though.

Debbie

I certainly believe in maintaining an alkaline diet and body if possible.
I'm 6'9" and weigh about 220 and am now 38.
220 means I'm pretty slim at that height although I've been skinnier.
Food intake doesn't seem to affect my weight much but if I excercise in the form of running and eat healthier foods then I dropped down to about 200 a couple of years ago.
I've never broken any bones... pass the wood over..

Debbie,

I've been using it for about a month now, and my condition remains greatly improved (though not perfect).

Since your husband is very thin, you should explore the possibility of digestive issues.

I'm pretty sure that some kind of malnutrition plays a role in my own difficulties. Here's why I think so:

This past spring, I was at my very worst, with what appeared to be flutter every night, constant agitation, chest tightness, and a host of other unpleasant things. At the same time, I developed lines on my toenails running from side to side. These are called Beau's Lines, and are classic signs of malnutrition.

My symptoms improved considerably when I started to drink a veggie shake each morning, and at the same time, my Beau's Lines disappeared. This is a pretty clear sign that some kind of malnutrition was part of the problem. The malnutrition was likely caused by digestive issues, rather than a poor diet, because I had and have a very nutrient rich diet.

The veggie shake makes nutrients more bioavailable than they would otherwise be, especially when you prepare the shake with some oil in it (I use two tablespoons), which makes the fat soluble nutrients more accessible.

Mind you, this didn't completely cure me, but it did lead to marked improvement that has remained to this day. My apparent flutter disappeared, and I was left with lots of ectopics and some agitation to deal with (hence the ongoing experiments that include Waller Water).

I should also mention that, during the time I had Beau's Lines, my weight began dropping (from 125--> 118 lbs, over the course of a month), despite my best efforts to keep it up. That problem abated as well when I began drinking the veggie shake.

Nick - this is certainly interesting. Everything I've ever read or heard in interviews on this topic indicates that it's not fat that gives up the minerals, but rather, bone. In order to protect the kidneys from being 'fried' by acid and in order to process acid through the renal system, the body will pull the buffering minerals from bone stores. This is the principle behind osteoporosis as often occurs in people who tend to run an acidic pH. This is not blood pH because the body holds that in close tolerance, but the tissue pH that results from an overly acidic metabolic ash as the result of those foods and beverages that cause acidity rather than alkalinity. Other influences beside food cause acidic pH.. emotions, stress etc.

What I find most interesting is how relatively little WW it takes for you to notice a difference… but it’s undoubtedly the bicarbonate action and neutralizing effect that is working for you which is exactly what the patented version of magnesium bicarbonate water does. Russell Beckett researched in this area for 20 years and patented his Unique Water. We were looking for a way to duplicate the effects of Unique water and Erling came up with the Waller Water recipe mainly as a way to add more magnesium. It also works to eliminate the detrimental effects of carbon dioxide.

Read below the medical condition findings on the Unique water formula.

[www.rexresearch.com]

Jackie

Jackie,

The way the author presented it was that the "fat buffer" system takes some of the pressure off the bones to do the job, and when the fat buffer system malfunctions, the bones (and to a lesser extent, other tissues) have to pick up more slack than they otherwise would. So she didn't dispute the idea that the bones are the chief contributor.

Wow Jackie, I'd never read that on Unique Water!

Lotsa numbers, lotsa polysyllables. Can somebody please excerpt/translate this?
PeggyM

George - yeah - awesome isn't it? That's why we thought a homemade brew would be ideal.... and it is!!! Readily available and economical plus health benefits. Hard to beat that combination. Thanks to Erling, we can make our own Waller Water. I'm so pleased Nick is benefiting from using it.

Jackie

Lotsa numbers, lotsa polysyllables. Wish somebody would abstract that article for our delectation. Found this interesting quote:
"...any gastrointestinal side effects due to the smooth muscle relaxation properties of magnesium. " Different theory about how come Mg supplements give us the trots?
PeggyM

Hi All,

George, it is by unfortunate turns on this BB and CR that you never knew that Unique Water (UW) was developed specifically for its intracellular acid quenching property, magnesium functioning as a carrier for moving alkaline bicarbonate ions across the cell membrane.

It was Rod in Tasmania who in 2002 brought fascinating UW to our attention. Prior to setting about replicating UW with WW, I followed Rod's lead and read all of the information and linked journal literature presented on Dr. Beckett's earlier web site nonpharmaceutical.com (gone now), studied both of the lengthy US patents carefully, and posted links and substantive information here on the BB. Beckett didn't praise the benefits of magnesium per se, beyond it being an ideal carrier of bicarbonate. Both patents use 'Metal Bicarbonate' in the title, not magnesium bicarbonate. Sadly, all of this information about the benefits of alkalizing the cells became lost in the hype about alkalinity being a negative somehow, that one ought to neutralize WW with lemon juice..

I've always been a wee bit ticked off about this. Wish the original BB posts on Unique Water that led to WW were retrievable, but I've not been able to find them.

Jackie, thanks very much for bringing this up, and for providing the article with both US patents. As I recall the patents are essentially identical, the later one being a slight revision of the first .

Peace.

Erling

Thanks Erling for adding to my brief explanation. We all can benefit daily from alkalizing practices and the quickest, easiest, least expensive way is with the WW. The one telecourse I took a very long time ago was on this very topic.... getting the body into an alkaline state to reduce the prevalence of disease since disease conditions thrive in an acidic environment.

Thanks again to you for making this happen.

Jackie

Erling,

There does appear to be a gap between the first and second message boards for the 2002 time frame.

In this post, Jackie references and reprints a post by you:
<[www.afibbers.com];

Linking some of your original links - read the story behind "Unique Water" at [www.smh.com.au]

And using the "Way Back Machine" to access the nonpharmaceutical.com site (so this will be slower response than usual):
[web.archive.org]

It might be good to summarize the nonpharmaceutical.com site and include the summary with the [www.afibbers.org] info, along with a strong note as to why buffering is not recommended. Also the info from the site Jackie linked [www.rexresearch.com]

George

One of the papers referenced by nonpharmaceutical.com. This is a very interesting paper. Erling & Jackie - thanks for sending me down this trail!!!

Frassetto LA, Todd KM, Morris RC Jr, Sebastian A.
Department of Medicine and General Clinical Research Center, University of California, San Francisco 94143, USA.

Abstract: Normal adult humans eating Western diets have chronic, low-grade metabolic acidosis, the severity of which is determined in part by the net rate of endogenous noncarbonic acid production (NEAP), which varies with diet. To prevent or reverse age-related sequelae of such diet-dependent acidosis (eg, bone and muscle loss), methods are needed for estimating and regulating NEAP. Because NEAP is difficult to measure directly, we sought a simple method to estimate it from diet-composition data. We focused on protein and potassium contents because the production of sulfuric acid from protein metabolism and bicarbonate from dietary potassium salts of organic acids are the major variable components of NEAP. Using steady state renal net acid excretion (RNAE) as an index of NEAP in 141 normal subjects eating 20 different diets, we found by multiple linear regression analysis that RNAE [mEq/d x 10460 kJ diet (mEq/d 2500 kcal)] was predictable (R2 = 0.62) from protein [g/d x 10460 kJ diet (g/d 2500 kcal); positive regression coefficient, P < 0.001] and potassium [mEq/d x 10460 kJ diet (mEq/d x 2500 kcal): negative regression coefficient, P = 0.001] contents, which were not themselves correlated. Among diets, 71% of the variation in RNAE could be accounted for by the ratio of protein (Pro) to potassium (K) content: RNAE = 62Pro/K - 17.9 (r = 0.84, R2 = 0.71, P < 0.001). Thus, by considering both the acidifying effect of protein and the alkalinizing effect of potassium (organic anions), NEAP can be predicted with confidence from the readily available contents of only 2 nutrients in foods. Provisionally, these findings allow estimation and regulation of NEAP through diet modification.
PMID: 9734733 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


[www.ajcn.org]

I'm wondering if this is the reason (acid/base issues going to basic) the raw vegan diet helped Ulla so much <[www.afibbers.org];

For added bonus, a couple of potassium bicarbonate links:

[www.nowpublic.com]

[www.life-enhancement.com]

So for the blood pressure reductions spoken about is it the increased potassium or the bicarbonate?

And there's more. Here is the current Unique Water site: [www.uniquewater.com.au]
Here is a link to the US Patent:
[patft.uspto.gov]

More about people consuming the water in Oz:
[www.smh.com.au]

George - thanks so much for taking the time to ferret out these great references. At the time we were doing this research ('02–04), the literature was almost overwhelming but definitely something that was compelling for afibbers to know. This reinforces it all.

I recall spending many days/weeks/months during those years reading the related patent information. At the time, we were deep in collaboration with the Paul Mason in California who has his own version of Unique Water (Adobe Springs Water- called Noah's Water) from his magnesium-rich water sources there. It is interesting stuff. Paul is a pioneer in his own right and has done a remarkable job of presenting magnesium water to the world via his website www.mgwater.com. Paul's online library is invaluable. Erling’s WW method was passed along to the Arab Nations through the Arab Healthy Water Association. I’ve lost track of how that materialized.

One of my very early posts here was on pH and I'm glad to see it continue. Most people unknowingly consume far too many foods and beverages that cause the acid pH and many health problems result. It really doesn't have to be complicated.

The Waller Water is a useful adjunct toward become alkaline in an acidic world.

Thanks again for picking up on this important topic.

Jackie

George

You asked "So for the blood pressure reductions spoken about is it the increased potassium or the bicarbonate?"

Over the past week or so I have been measuring my blood pressure with an instrument lent me by my GP (MD). He wanted as many readings over two weeks as I was willing to take. I have been taking 4 groups of three readings each day. At the same time I put into effect what I read in Erling's post addressed to Sharon 10-27-09 about the importance of a high ratio of potassium to sodium for lowering elevated blood pressure. I cut out all salt and concentrated on potassium and magnesium foods over and above the "big three supplementation" you recommended to me a while ago. My blood pressure has lowered very significantly during the past week. I don't think that I changed anything concerning the bicarbonate.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I'm well aware that a 5:1 or up to 20:1 potassium:sodium ratio is indicated and can lower blood pressure significantly. This is discussed in these references:

The High Blood Pressure Solution: A Scientifically Proven Program for Preventing Strokes and Heart Disease by Richard D. Moore M.D. Ph.D. and Ph.D., Richard, D. Moore M.D.

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Potassium but Were to Tired to Ask by Betty Kamen

The Magnesium Factor by Mildred Seelig

What I found interesting were these quotes from this site:[www.life-enhancement.com]

"My blood pressure was up to 120/95 at best and 145/120 on especially bad days."

Then after taking potassium bicarbonate:

"Then he did it for a third time and said, “Your blood pressure is only 82/60. "
Hence I wondering if the pH modifying effect has an even stronger, or perhaps there is a synergistic (potassium + bicarbonate) effect.

Perhaps there is an element of this in the "DASH" blood pressure diet which emphasizes fruits ahd veggies and would generally be alkalizing.

Glad it is working for you!

George

Hi George

Thank you. That is now quite clear.

But what are your thoughts about Hans' reporting a claim by an eminent doctor that:

"parasympathetic dominants- they are already too alkaline"?


My own experience does not seem to confirm that claim but I have only a very poor grasp of the whole subject.

Peter

Peter - my own experience is that even though parasympathetic, I ran acidic when tested or evaluated for pH. I definitely found the WW to be helpful in changing that, but moreover, I relied on changing diet to raise the pH to more alkaline on a consistent basis. Eliminating grains which produce acid ash and controlling portions of protein/meat that produce acid ash while balancing out with large amounts of non-starchy vegetables is the key. Most fruit is alkalizing but not all. I keep that to a minor amount.

A good book on the topic is Alkalize or Die by Theodore Baroody. It's not complicated to follow.

There are various Internet websites that offer charts of the foods and where they rank in values when metabolized.
[www.essense-of-life.com]

Another issue is the emotional side of acidic pH tendency. Highly emotional people, stressed, angry and those who have toxic burdens in the body are prone to be acidic. Toxic, acidic emotions include: overwork, anger, fear, jealousy and stress.

Jackie

Jackie

Many thanks for the helpful ideas.
I think the most important next step is to test my own ph.
I will wait to see if WW is for me.

Peter

Peter.... here are a couple clips from my files on pH testing with the strips.

Saliva pH is controlled by your diet and the amount of vitamins and minerals you have in your body. Lower saliva pH is a good indicator for the need of vitamin and mineral supplements. Saliva pH over 7.0 is a good indicator that you are taking in enough vitamins and minerals. This simple test is a good general way to measure the amount of vitamins and minerals you need.

The benefits of saliva pH testing are that it is simple, inexpensive and the patient control over monitoring their path back to good health. Saliva pH has been used by physicians for decades as a general indicator of your body’s health. Recent research has linked low saliva pH to poor nutrition and has been found to be an indicator in several leading diseases. Saliva pH is usually measured from 5-9, the lower your score the more acidic and the more likely to have health problems.

Your ideal saliva pH level should be between 7.0-7.4, this is either 1st thing in the morning or an hour after any food or fluid intake. The good news is that you can monitor and improve your health without costly medications or doctors visits. You can improve your saliva pH by improving the foods you eat and the nutritional supplements you take.

For the urine, a slightly higher pH level of 7.5 upwards is great, but remember that due to the kidneys processing of toxins throughout the day, the urine can give a more erratic reading.

(as I recall from the seminar I took, they said to take do urine first thing in the morning after the stream flows a bit... and saliva, at a time when you haven't brushed your teeth or eaten something)

Jackie

Thanks Jackie,

That's very helpful.

I have the testing strips on order.

Peter