Probiotics--objective test?

You're probably tired of hearing my requests for objective tests, but let me try again. As I read and learn, it sounds like vagal afibbers at least have a clear connection between their digestive system and their afib (the vagus nerve). I also read that many of you find particular diets (varied by person) to help. You also have many foods that trigger. And, many of you have help from supplements, especially Mg/K/taurine.

Why do you need supplements? Why isn't your digestive tract absorbing the nutrients from the food (assuming you are putting those foods in there)? Is lack of absorption, or sensitivity to particular foods, related to microorganisms? (Yes, I read Jackie's "bug" post). I realize this may not be the case for many, but for those who are most helped by diets/supplements, might it be a microorganism imbalance? I searched for "probiotic" in the forum but only got 57 hits, and most didn't seem to address the specifics, just mentioned it in a list of stuff they were taking.

My questions then, are: (1) is it possible that the right probiotic might sufficiently turn things around in the intestines to stop afib, especially in vagal AFers that benefit from diet/supplements like Mg/K? (2) Are there objective tests worth doing to determine if an imbalance exists, what is missing, and what best to take to fix it?

Robert

Robert, with me i guess it might be a microorganism imbalance, but i don't really think so. I think the ultimate Mg-K problem with me lies first in a lifelong, familial, formerly subclinical but now frank, sensitivity to wheat, combined with too much msg and other assorted additives, in food. I think that for most of my life while i was not aware of this sensitivity, whatever Mg happened to be in my food was not well absorbed due to the wheat problem. And i know for certain that i was not eating enough K containing foods to ingest our government's RDA for this nutrient. About the taurine, it is known that the body's ability to produce this amino acid from food declines with age, and as long as i remain alive i do get steadily older.

Paleodiet has removed the wheat trouble because paleo does not allow grains, and the msg, etc. problem by cutting out processed foods, but the electrolyte intake remains problematic.

[www.paleodiet.com]


Mg is most plentiful in grains and legumes, and i now find it unwise to disobey this paleo injunction.

[www.krispin.com]

K is most plentiful in fresh greenstuff, and there i run into a money problem. I do not know what your financial situation is like, but mine necessitates one big grocery buying binge when the check comes. Produce is obscenely expensive, and also it cannot be kept for a full month. Frozen vegetables are the best i can do. Sufficient servings of K containing veggies are often not consumed, and the consequence of low K intake makes itself felt immediately. Best i should supplement both, i think.

[lpi.oregonstate.edu]

Afib is very varied between one afibber and another, and there are very clearly some of us whose digestive systems do not process food well, and some of those do benefit from probiotics. Which probiotic seems to depend on trial and error, though Jackie has some standard recommendations that can start a person in the right direction. They do not seem to help me, so i no longer take them.

About the malabsorption of Mg [which leads to the wasting of other nutrients because Mg is so necessary to digestion and absorption, as well as other body processes], there has been a lot of research done on this subject. You may or may not have run across some of this, so here are some urls you might find interesting on this topic. I am positive Jackie could supply a lot more too.

[www.magnesiumresearchlab.com]

[www.mgwater.com]

[www.mgwater.com]

[www.mercola.com]

[www.worldwidehealthcenter.net]

PeggyM

Robert,

Speaking as one Vagal AFibber who has definitely benefited from supplements and dietary changes I don't think the pre/probiotics made much difference in my case. I have taken a probiotic supplement and used only organic yoghurt with probiotics in it for about 10 years. This was well before my AF was diagnosed, and as far as I can tell made no difference to the eventual outcome which I have now.


Sue Bowden/60/Vagal LAF/The List/2 years clear/ no medication now

robert,
I was anemic and low in iron....tried in vain to take iron supplements but it was too painful for my GI-- plus it caused acid reflex problems. I started probiotics and my iron levels improved without iron supplements. I am guessing my guts are working better to absorb the foods I eat.

A friend of mine has two children with anemia. They adopted the SCD diet which is similiar to the paleo in that one eliminates all gluten in addition to potatoes, rice, etc. Her children's iron and blood levels improved on this diet.

So as Peggy mentioned, perhaps removing wheat from your diet will help. Perhaps the combo of removing wheat and also taking probiotics will even be better...I don't know but it would be an interesting experiment.

Robert - yes you may be able to turn around dysbiosis and gut dysfunction to the point where one could also eliminate afib. Certainly those who suffer from leaky gut syndrome have benefited greatly....

You can do the gut testing to see what the status of the GI tract is --- and also determine from that which nutrients are not being absorbed.

All it takes is finding the right doctor to do the testing and be able to interpret them correctly, plus supervise and retest with supplements to repair the intestinal wall and bring the gut back to health.

When I get back in town, I'll post something meaningful on the benefits of probiotics. Have a large file and have personal experience myself.

I firmly believe in probiotics but if one is sensitive to foods or gluten, for instance, all the probiotics in the world aren't going to help until the insult is avoided in the first place....so testing is paramount to get to the 'bottom' of the gut dysfunction.

Jackie

I'll chime in and say that probiotics might help some people. I am partly vagal and some of my issues are low stomach acid and digestive enzymes from years of undiagnosed celiac disease. So, far I can't tolerate digestive enzyme or betain HCL supplements. So, if a person has problems with digestive enzyme levels and stomach acid (too much or too little) probiotics may not help.

However, some researchers are finding tantelizing information on human codependence parasites and how in areas where people suffer from more certain types of parasites, asthma and other auto-immune conditions are rare. One researcher found that when chrones patients were infected with a short lived parasite they went into remission. So, probiotics and other life forms might hold a key to health, but I suspect it is very complex. Perhaps one reason a-fib is becoming more prevalent is due to our loss of connection to the earth and exposure to soil microorganisms.

Tish

Robert,
You will find this interesting re "missing exposure to soil microganisms" that Tish posted above:

[users.penn.com]

I myself eat Bacillus Subtilis in the form of natto food. 50gm no less than 5 times a week. That coupled with daily PPI for reflux has kept me afib free and almost pac/pvc free for 4yrs and 8 months. That's all I have done - no expensive supplements, no special diet, no heart meds - only trillions of B. Subtilis almost daily.
Since I started on the B. Subtilis (natto) nearly 3 yrs ago I have only been sick once and that was mild pharyngitis for 2 days.
Dean

Dean - what is natto food and how often were you getting afib before you became afib free?

If a person has parasites, taking a probiotic probably will not eliminate them. Specific anti-parasitic herbals taken for a long time and then testing to see if removed is the process.

Parasites can be killed with Grapefruit Seed Extract and the essential Oil of Oregano capsules.

J

Barb,

Natto food is fermented (with bacillus subtilis) soybeans. Generally found in the frozen food case at a Japanese or asian grocer. Dean also is subject to GERD and fixing this was an additional help to his afib.

[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]

Before I knew I was allergic to soy, I ate a lot of natto. However because of my soy allergy this was counterproductive for me.

If you search on Dean (as author) and natto in this and archived boards [www.afibbers.org] you will find more info.

George

PS Anyone on Coumadin should not use natto food.

Thanks Jackie, forgot the warning!

How did you go with Dr Holsworth re the vitamin K2 issue between you and Hans? I'm very interested in this (I don't want to drop dead suddenly)

Dean

Thanks George.. I'll look into this further ~ Barb

Thanks everyone for the great feedback! Sounds like there is a mix of responses--some vagal afibbers have been helped by probiotics and some have not.

The missing microorganisms-soil connection is interesting. May have a point there. We probably get a whole lot less of that than earlier cultures did (raw milk, etc.). But then, we do have greater longevity, mostly due to improved hygiene (i.e., cholera, typhoid, etc., reduction), or so I seem to remember reading somewhere. We probably need more of the good and less of the bad microorganisms.

Jackie, you mentioned, "You can do the gut testing to see what the status of the GI tract is --- and also determine from that which nutrients are not being absorbed." Can you be more specific? Is this the celiac type biopsy, or something simpler?

Dean, natto foods sound like another candidate for the "to try" list. I've stayed off the coumadin despite doctor's recommendation, so no problem there. From a quick read, though, sounds like natto foods might take some real getting used to!

btw, Dean--do you remember how fast you saw AF and PACs disappear once you started on natto foods? i.e., if I responded as you did, how many days of 50 g/day would I need to do to conduct a fair test and expect to see results?