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Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers
Posted by borsaric
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Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 12:13PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 13 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 01:58PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 02:20PM |
Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 267 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 04:16PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
Quote
gloaming
>< These have all done wonders for me. I even tried putting an earthworm up my bum and kept palp-free for weeks!
Did your worm survive?
My GP wanted me to take ground earth worms in a capsule as a blood thinner before I turned 65. I had more bruises so I guess it worked but I ended up on Eliquis just to make sure.
I never heard of putting worms up one bum. I’ve heard of the opposite in taking meds to get rid of tape worms.
If you want to take worms:
[www.amazon.com]
Or
[www.amazon.com]
I tried both brands. Don’t kiss anyone afterwards.
Boluoke (dried earthworm enzymes in a capsule)
WHAT IT IS:
• Standardized, fully researched extract of earthworm enzymes
WHY YOU NEED IT:
• Important for patients who need natural blood thinning
• Targets patients looking for healthy levels of fibrinogen, C-reactive protein, and blood thickness (viscosity)
• Good for patients who cannot take prescription anti-coagulation medication
more details
$92.00
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 05:38PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 06:04PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
Boluoke (Lumbrokinase) is not as dumb as digesting clay. It just gives you worm breath.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
snip from the original post:
[www.earthclinic.com]
“ Bentonite and Probiotics For AFib
Ron (Tavernier, Fl) on 12/27/2014
5 out of 5 stars
Update:
In my search for a cure I realized I was using crutches in the form of many supplements. I have also found the root to all conditions such as afib, or all chronic conditions such as asthma, cancer diabetes etc is either toxicity and or deficiency. I have also discovered that the best way to eliminate the toxic conditions in the body is with bentonite clay, food grade sodium bentonite. Small amounts do not cure, large does. The stools should be massive, and daily, not small and occasional.”
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 06:17PM by susan.d.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
snip from the original post:
[www.earthclinic.com]
“ Bentonite and Probiotics For AFib
Ron (Tavernier, Fl) on 12/27/2014
5 out of 5 stars
Update:
In my search for a cure I realized I was using crutches in the form of many supplements. I have also found the root to all conditions such as afib, or all chronic conditions such as asthma, cancer diabetes etc is either toxicity and or deficiency. I have also discovered that the best way to eliminate the toxic conditions in the body is with bentonite clay, food grade sodium bentonite. Small amounts do not cure, large does. The stools should be massive, and daily, not small and occasional.”
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 06:17PM by susan.d.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 07:14PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 12, 2022 09:42PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 819 |
Suspect there are many reasons for having a disease including toxicity, deficiencies, biochemical/nutritional imbalances, genetics, lifestyle (lack of exercise/sunlight/clean fresh air /stress) - anything else or just one or two of the above.
I'd like to know what actually makes our ionic channels in the heart cells malfunction/pumping minerals in and out of cells????
I'd like to know what actually makes our ionic channels in the heart cells malfunction/pumping minerals in and out of cells????
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 10:42AM |
Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 267 |
The problem is that by the time someone ends up here they are already f***ed. As many have said about love and unlikely relationships "the heart wants what the heart wants". Same with AFIB.
Genetics, lifestyle, negligence, etc all lead to a heart doing what it wants (irregular rhythm) because that's what a damaged heart wants. The healthy heart tried to want NSR but those other forces won out and here we are.
Maybe if you get your first warning sign, a few PACs, and you're really paying attention and catch it early (like George did) you might be able to stave off the beast with lots of research, discipline and experimentation that is unique to each individual.
Genetics, lifestyle, negligence, etc all lead to a heart doing what it wants (irregular rhythm) because that's what a damaged heart wants. The healthy heart tried to want NSR but those other forces won out and here we are.
Maybe if you get your first warning sign, a few PACs, and you're really paying attention and catch it early (like George did) you might be able to stave off the beast with lots of research, discipline and experimentation that is unique to each individual.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 11:10AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
PavanPharter said: Genetics, lifestyle, negligence, etc all lead to a heart doing what it wants (irregular rhythm) because that's what a damaged heart wants. The healthy heart tried to want NSR but those other forces won out and here we are.
Or the greater likelihood is that IT JUST HAPPENS and there is no way for most of us to avoid the problem. Which is the same with many if not most medical conditions.
Or the greater likelihood is that IT JUST HAPPENS and there is no way for most of us to avoid the problem. Which is the same with many if not most medical conditions.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 11:25AM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
For the heavy majority of all humans, the heart is a 'lifetime' instrument that functions reliably, and as it was designed to do...to respond to demands placed upon its host. But we humans have more than the genotype; we also have the phenotype. This is the effects of hormesis, of daily stressors, of corporeal growth, and the ravages of aging that begins to accelerate after about 55 or so.
People who are sedentary, who subject their bodies to unwise choices, who refrain from a thorough medical examination every five years...they are placing a demand on their hearts if their body mass keeps creeping upwards, and if they ingest processed foods in any great quantity regularly, and so on. We all know about the triggers.
I don't think atrial fibrillation simply happens. It has a progenitor of some kind, something that disposes the heart eventually to literally erupt in pent-up protest. And, once it gets that cranky and learns how it likes to release the anger, it keeps on doing so. However, the heart is like every other organ; it ages. If it's cranky and behaving badly, it will continue to evolve down its new path. For anyone who understands AF and its disordered nature and prognosis, it's not a path that anyone would wish on another person.
People who are sedentary, who subject their bodies to unwise choices, who refrain from a thorough medical examination every five years...they are placing a demand on their hearts if their body mass keeps creeping upwards, and if they ingest processed foods in any great quantity regularly, and so on. We all know about the triggers.
I don't think atrial fibrillation simply happens. It has a progenitor of some kind, something that disposes the heart eventually to literally erupt in pent-up protest. And, once it gets that cranky and learns how it likes to release the anger, it keeps on doing so. However, the heart is like every other organ; it ages. If it's cranky and behaving badly, it will continue to evolve down its new path. For anyone who understands AF and its disordered nature and prognosis, it's not a path that anyone would wish on another person.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 03:57PM |
Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 267 |
Ken,
I think if anyone looks deep enough, they'll find something that led to their AFIB. Or many root causes.
I had to look at your post history to get some background. In your case, the high intensity athleticism might be a factor. But normally the lateral position and the cooling effect of the water keeps damage to a minimum compared to runners, cyclists and x-country skiers etc that develop high levels of inflammation while training and competing.
[www.amazon.com]
Chlorine could be a factor. A friend of mine that swims competitively still has a teammate that swears and has stopped swimming because the chlorine causes AF for that person.
I'd agree that 'aging happens'... if we're lucky! And aging does bring about some medical conditions but the right lifestyle and genetics go a long way to staving off those issues.
My AF was caused by neglected OSA & CRP, neglected diabetes, neglected BP, use of caffeine/energy drinks, and genetics.
It's almost a wonder I didn't have AF much earlier than I did.
It sucks to know all I did wrong but I use that information now to hopefully prevent the need for a 2nd ablation.
Gloaming +1 I agree 100%
I think if anyone looks deep enough, they'll find something that led to their AFIB. Or many root causes.
I had to look at your post history to get some background. In your case, the high intensity athleticism might be a factor. But normally the lateral position and the cooling effect of the water keeps damage to a minimum compared to runners, cyclists and x-country skiers etc that develop high levels of inflammation while training and competing.
[www.amazon.com]
Chlorine could be a factor. A friend of mine that swims competitively still has a teammate that swears and has stopped swimming because the chlorine causes AF for that person.
I'd agree that 'aging happens'... if we're lucky! And aging does bring about some medical conditions but the right lifestyle and genetics go a long way to staving off those issues.
My AF was caused by neglected OSA & CRP, neglected diabetes, neglected BP, use of caffeine/energy drinks, and genetics.
It's almost a wonder I didn't have AF much earlier than I did.
It sucks to know all I did wrong but I use that information now to hopefully prevent the need for a 2nd ablation.
Gloaming +1 I agree 100%
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 05:54PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
I'm convinced that genetics play a big role. I doubt if having the wrong genes dooms you to afib, but I think it likely makes you susceptible. The world is full of fat, chain smoking, heavy drinking, sedentary individuals with OSA who don't have afib. It's also full of thin, non-smoking, non-drinking, active individuals who don't have OSA but who do have afib. I think the key to predicting who will develop afib will be found, and it's going to be a genetic basis. I think the cure will also be found in some type of gene therapy.
I have no idea what caused my afib, but I don't think it's coincidence that my mother and my older sister both had afib.
I have no idea what caused my afib, but I don't think it's coincidence that my mother and my older sister both had afib.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 06:59PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
My paternal grandpa had it as well. My father hasn't had it, nor have any of my two siblings, two male, one female. It surely could be genetic, especially in terms of predisposition, but how one lives is the 'other half'. Not every woman with the breast cancer genes (eg, BRCA's 1 and 2) gets the disease. Some who do not have the genetic predisposition do.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 07:32PM |
Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 267 |
Using biometric models, we estimated the heritability of AF to be 62% (55% to 68%), due to additive genetics. There were no significant differences across sexes.
[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
In addition to having conventional risk factors, such as advanced age, obesity, and hypertension, AF has a substantial heritable component. In a large twin study of people of Scandinavian origin, the total heritability of AF was estimated to be 62%.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
In addition to having conventional risk factors, such as advanced age, obesity, and hypertension, AF has a substantial heritable component. In a large twin study of people of Scandinavian origin, the total heritability of AF was estimated to be 62%.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 13, 2022 09:59PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 819 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 14, 2022 12:58AM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
Quote
Joe
Nevertheless epigenetics comes into the equation as well? We also ‘inherit’ certain dietary and lifestyle trends.
Good point and the perfect word for it. I'm pretty sure I inherited a gene or two from my mother that made me susceptible to afib, and then some thing(s) I did made it happen.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 14, 2022 04:06AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 920 |
Quote
Carey
I'm convinced that genetics play a big role. I doubt if having the wrong genes dooms you to afib, but I think it likely makes you susceptible. The world is full of fat, chain smoking, heavy drinking, sedentary individuals with OSA who don't have afib. It's also full of thin, non-smoking, non-drinking, active individuals who don't have OSA but who do have afib. I think the key to predicting who will develop afib will be found, and it's going to be a genetic basis. I think the cure will also be found in some type of gene therapy.
I have no idea what caused my afib, but I don't think it's coincidence that my mother and my older sister both had afib.
Count me in the 2nd group !
Both my parents got AFib when they were 70+ years. Both my sisters (72 and 63) are fine to date. I'm nearly 65 and had my very first AFib episode seven years ago. In my family, I'm the only "endurance athlete" (bicycling), but I 've always done it very reasonably. My cardiologist was surprised my heart was still perfectly "normal", but she said it was likely my life habits that made those HR disorders appear at nearly 58 instead of later in my life.
I'm still trying to find solutions. 484 episodes to date, averaging 1hr and self-ending without meds. Four ablations.
I've de-trained a lot. Without any success.
Now I'm re-training, very reasonably, and it does not change anything.
I've tried several kinds of diets and supplements. No change.
Recent stress and blood tests are fine. I'm a healthy guy.
I'm still experimenting...
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 14, 2022 09:12AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
No afib in my family that I know of, so it appears I am the first. Scratch heredity. Training for swimming could be a factor, but there are certainly a lot more endurance athletes without afib than those with it. Plus, a 30-year gap between the end of my endurance type training and the beginning of afib.
Even if we knew that our afib was the result of heredity and or endurance training, what influence would that have for others in the future? Likely zero.
Even if we knew that our afib was the result of heredity and or endurance training, what influence would that have for others in the future? Likely zero.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 14, 2022 10:09AM |
Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 267 |
Great discussion - made me look up this -
Is it possible that many people esp sedentary never even know they are in AF?
Using a back-calculation approach, we estimate that the total AF prevalence in 2009 was 5.3 million of which 0.7 million (13.1% of AF cases) were undiagnosed. Over half of the modeled population with undiagnosed AF was at moderate to high risk of stroke.
[journals.plos.org]
EDIT - It's far greater than this: 40% on a long enough timeline
[www.afibbers.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2022 10:23AM by PavanPharter.
Is it possible that many people esp sedentary never even know they are in AF?
Using a back-calculation approach, we estimate that the total AF prevalence in 2009 was 5.3 million of which 0.7 million (13.1% of AF cases) were undiagnosed. Over half of the modeled population with undiagnosed AF was at moderate to high risk of stroke.
[journals.plos.org]
EDIT - It's far greater than this: 40% on a long enough timeline
[www.afibbers.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2022 10:23AM by PavanPharter.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 14, 2022 10:27AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 920 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 14, 2022 11:59AM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
I wonder, too, how many, and what 'type', of person starts with mere paroxysmal AF and then might go on to more advanced or persistent arrhythmias. Does a much higher percentage of 'sedentary' people become persistent early? Earlier than those who started with paroxysmal AF? If one takes what Dr. Gupta avers at face value, a person who has an initial experience with AF is much more likely to know of the event, and to be intolerant of it. But people with flutter or with persistent AF might become habituated, indifferent, used to it, or not detect it from the outset.
Also, the non-sedentary patient, as a group, could be expected to be more 'self-actualizing', or have an internal locus of control. They are more disciplined about self-maintenance and upkeep, and would be more averse to 'letting things slide'. They'll seek help, and do what they must to correct the defect.
This is just a SWAG, I haven't actually bothered to go fishing for evidence. But, as a psychologist with heavy background in organizational behaviour, motivational theory, and group dynamics, I suspect such sufferers to belong to groups of involved, active, and resolution-seeking people who meet socially and in groups with purposes, such as running clubs, and so on.
Also, the non-sedentary patient, as a group, could be expected to be more 'self-actualizing', or have an internal locus of control. They are more disciplined about self-maintenance and upkeep, and would be more averse to 'letting things slide'. They'll seek help, and do what they must to correct the defect.
This is just a SWAG, I haven't actually bothered to go fishing for evidence. But, as a psychologist with heavy background in organizational behaviour, motivational theory, and group dynamics, I suspect such sufferers to belong to groups of involved, active, and resolution-seeking people who meet socially and in groups with purposes, such as running clubs, and so on.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 10:31AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
Quote
Pompon
(...)
Is it possible that many people esp sedentary never even know they are in AF?
This is the way I think it goes.
Athletes are used to monitor their HR or, at least, they 'feel' it. If it's going wrong, they know it.
Sedentary people rarely mind their heart.
Absolutely. It's hard for me to imagine someone not knowing or feeling what their heart is doing. I suspect how lean or fat one is plays a role in this. Extra fat tissue likely hides/muffles the heartbeat. When I was in afib and going to bed, if I tried to sleep on my left side, it felt like I was on a vibrating bed in a cheap motel and could not sleep. On the right side, it was better, and I could sleep.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 01:38PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
Quote
Ken
Absolutely. It's hard for me to imagine someone not knowing or feeling what their heart is doing. I suspect how lean or fat one is plays a role in this.
Maybe, but I know a guy who's a lifelong athlete and very fit. He's in his 70s and runs marathons. He has longstanding persistent afib that was diagnosed entirely by chance a few years ago during a routine physical. He has no idea how long he'd been in afib previously because he doesn't feel it at all and hadn't had an EKG in years.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 03:37PM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
Quote
Carey
Absolutely. It's hard for me to imagine someone not knowing or feeling what their heart is doing. I suspect how lean or fat one is plays a role in this.
Maybe, but I know a guy who's a lifelong athlete and very fit. He's in his 70s and runs marathons. He has longstanding persistent afib that was diagnosed entirely by chance a few years ago during a routine physical. He has no idea how long he'd been in afib previously because he doesn't feel it at all and hadn't had an EKG in years.
If afib is reducing blood flow 15-30%, it's amazing anyone in persistent afib could manage a marathon. I could do little, fitness wise while in afib, because of rapid oxygen debt.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 04:55PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 05:34PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
I've always been skeptical of that 15-30% figure. It may be true for some people, but not all. More than once I found myself in afib while out on my bike. Miles from home with no cell signal, there's only one option: get on the bike and start riding. I would try to take it easy, but the terrain here is hilly, so there's only so much taking it easy I could do. I was always able to ride back home without major discomfort even though my heart rate was 170-190.
And later when my problem was flutter rather than afib? My flutter ran at rates of 230-250, and yet I remained fully functional during those episodes. I would drive myself to the ER, and I always enjoyed the look on the nurse's face when they put a pulse ox on my finger. I looked and acted so normal that they were mentally rolling their eyes when I told them I was there because I had a rapid heart rate. That eye rolling stopped in a hurry when they saw 250 on the monitor.
On the other hand, there are people who faint if they merely stand up or walk during afib, so they're debilitated by it. I would imagine those people probably do have a 15-30% reduction, but I doubt that I do, and I doubt that guy I know who runs marathons does either.
And later when my problem was flutter rather than afib? My flutter ran at rates of 230-250, and yet I remained fully functional during those episodes. I would drive myself to the ER, and I always enjoyed the look on the nurse's face when they put a pulse ox on my finger. I looked and acted so normal that they were mentally rolling their eyes when I told them I was there because I had a rapid heart rate. That eye rolling stopped in a hurry when they saw 250 on the monitor.
On the other hand, there are people who faint if they merely stand up or walk during afib, so they're debilitated by it. I would imagine those people probably do have a 15-30% reduction, but I doubt that I do, and I doubt that guy I know who runs marathons does either.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 08:04PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
230-250 atrial heartbeat or ventricular Carey?
My pacemaker recently pre ablation clocked my atrium hr @ 303 and another at 306.
Since my av node ablation I didn’t feel any of the 49 episodes the 24 hours post ablation @ 256 to 259 hr that my pacemaker clocked. Go figure. Carey- are they deliberately non symptomatic because my av was destroyed? Similar to your monkey cage —scar tissue from your ablation preventing the signals to cause any tachycardias in your heart? My atrium keeps beating insanely fast like on crack according to my PM but my hr remains low and are unnoticeable? Why? How?
My pacemaker recently pre ablation clocked my atrium hr @ 303 and another at 306.
Since my av node ablation I didn’t feel any of the 49 episodes the 24 hours post ablation @ 256 to 259 hr that my pacemaker clocked. Go figure. Carey- are they deliberately non symptomatic because my av was destroyed? Similar to your monkey cage —scar tissue from your ablation preventing the signals to cause any tachycardias in your heart? My atrium keeps beating insanely fast like on crack according to my PM but my hr remains low and are unnoticeable? Why? How?
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 15, 2022 09:06PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
Quote
susan.d
230-250 atrial heartbeat or ventricular Carey?
My pacemaker recently pre ablation clocked my atrium hr @ 303 and another at 306.
Since my av node ablation I didn’t feel any of the 49 episodes the 24 hours post ablation @ 256 to 259 hr that my pacemaker clocked. Go figure. Carey- are they deliberately non symptomatic because my av was destroyed? Similar to your monkey cage —scar tissue from your ablation preventing the signals to cause any tachycardias in your heart? My atrium keeps beating insanely fast like on crack according to my PM but my hr remains low and are unnoticeable? Why? How?
The 230-250 was my ventricular rate. That's why the nurses were shocked. So were the doctors. So was my own EP. Hell, I was too. I'd seen people with heart rates like that, but none of them were talking to me calmly; they were all in major distress.
Yes, the whole point of your AV node ablation was to disconnect your atria from the ventricles so it doesn't matter what your atria are doing. You can now ignore what your atria are doing because it's totally irrelevant to you. Your PM controls how fast your ventricles beat now, and that's all that matters.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 16, 2022 09:42AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
I would speculate that reduced blood flow while in afib varies quite a bit from individual to individual. During the 6 years of my diagnosed afib and over 200 episodes, I lived a normal life. I just avoided physically demanding things when in afib. But when going up a flight of stairs, there was a very noticeable increase in breathing, but that was no big deal. I did pass out once while in a school chapel service when I stood up quickly, but with no consequences other than embarrassment.
There were a couple of times that afib kicked in while windsurfing. I could not feel the increased heart rate, but my breathing/O2 needs quickly suggested something was wrong. Sat on the board for a moment, checked my pulse and bingo - afib. My O2 reduction while in afib was VERY noticeable when any physical demand was encountered.
There were a couple of times that afib kicked in while windsurfing. I could not feel the increased heart rate, but my breathing/O2 needs quickly suggested something was wrong. Sat on the board for a moment, checked my pulse and bingo - afib. My O2 reduction while in afib was VERY noticeable when any physical demand was encountered.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 16, 2022 10:44PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 819 |
Quote
PavanPharter
Right now state of the art is burning the inside of the heart.
If some other possibility comes up as effective, I am all for it.
Couldn't agree more. We are in the middle ages as far as AF goes. Why for the last 8 years after about or almost 4 months of permanent AF i'm paroxysmal now and with weeks and sometimes months in NSR (at least while i'm awake)
If it where, and probably is, due to the in/out flow of minerals from the cells - why does it occur only some times? Has it got to do with blood supply to the heart? Oxygenation of blood?
Yet i'm grateful for Pharma to provide Flec and Eliquis! I'd even have an ablation when push comes to shove - grudgingly.
Our heart responds to what is required by the body. Blood pressure increases for a reason so taking meds controls blood pressure without addressing the cause - as far as i can make out. Perhaps it's the same or similar with AF medications
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 17, 2022 12:26PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
Ken, I believe you are correct about the variation, and I believe it would be due to two main factors:
The volume enabled of the atrium due to its amplitude of contraction, particularly during AF; and
The viscosity flow of the blood in the circumstances of any one individual's AF. This would include rate, for example. Some can be in AF at low rates below 100 BPM, while others are in AF, and not necessarily in flutter, at rates higher than 150. At that cyclic rate, the blood won't flow particularly easily to fill the atrial volume after each contraction. This, in turn, would diminish the flow through the mitral valve and into the left ventricle.
The volume enabled of the atrium due to its amplitude of contraction, particularly during AF; and
The viscosity flow of the blood in the circumstances of any one individual's AF. This would include rate, for example. Some can be in AF at low rates below 100 BPM, while others are in AF, and not necessarily in flutter, at rates higher than 150. At that cyclic rate, the blood won't flow particularly easily to fill the atrial volume after each contraction. This, in turn, would diminish the flow through the mitral valve and into the left ventricle.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 17, 2022 01:36PM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 17, 2022 04:43PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
Well, that was sort of my own question. Would the slower rate allow for more fill of the atrium, then more transfer into the ventricle? And if so, then the ventricle, which is beating normally, should pump somewhat more blood than it would with a rapidly fibrillating atrium. I don't honestly know the answer to this, but it seems intuitively correct for someone not versed in fluid dynamics. Maybe Carey or George can offer some insight.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 18, 2022 12:04AM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
I haven't read up on the science of this specific question recently, so I'm just going on my understanding of heart function in general....
A chamber of the heart in fibrillation doesn't really pump at all. It just sort of quivers in a completely uncoordinated way. That's why ventricular fibrillation is fatal. The main chamber of your heart is just quivering and not pumping blood.
So if your atria are fibrillating, all the blood flowing into your ventricles is mainly just passive from your blood pressure. You're not getting an "atrial kick" to improve the flow. So if your heart rate is very high, that means your ventricles have less time to fill passively. Therefore, a high heart rate works against you because it means your ventricles have less time to fill, which reduces their overall output. So lowering your heart rate means your ventricles will have more time to fill and will increase their overall output.
So I'd say lowering your heart rate to under 100 when at rest is always going to produce an improved heart function.
A chamber of the heart in fibrillation doesn't really pump at all. It just sort of quivers in a completely uncoordinated way. That's why ventricular fibrillation is fatal. The main chamber of your heart is just quivering and not pumping blood.
So if your atria are fibrillating, all the blood flowing into your ventricles is mainly just passive from your blood pressure. You're not getting an "atrial kick" to improve the flow. So if your heart rate is very high, that means your ventricles have less time to fill passively. Therefore, a high heart rate works against you because it means your ventricles have less time to fill, which reduces their overall output. So lowering your heart rate means your ventricles will have more time to fill and will increase their overall output.
So I'd say lowering your heart rate to under 100 when at rest is always going to produce an improved heart function.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 18, 2022 04:25PM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 4,231 |
Quote
Ken
Which begs the question - While in afib, without a rate control drug (my rate was 180) and high heart rate, is the blood flow / O2 better than it would be if taking a rate control drug, slowing the heart rate to around a 100 or so?.
I pulled up this episode and looked at another with the same result. It does not appear that SpO2 drops during the episode. The transient drops may have been intentional exhaled breath holds. The episode starts as the pulse rate trends above 60 BPM (centered around 01:49). The heart rate and SpO2 data are recorded every 4 seconds. The heart rate shown is lower than what would have been captured on a beat to beat (R to R) recording as recording every 4 seconds averages (and smoothes) the afib variability. In fact the SpO2 appears to drop a bit when I go back into NSR near the end. This was recorded at 5,500' elevation, so the SpO2 is normally lower at this elevation. My afib rate was likely around 130 BPM.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2022 04:30PM by GeorgeN.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 19, 2022 09:32AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
GeorgeN
Were you on a rate control drug with the above recording?
For me, in the beginning 20 years ago:
HR without afib - 55
HR with afib, no meds - 180
HR with afib with rate control - 80-100, but I don't have a clear recollection.
13 years after my first ablation when afib returned:
HR without afib - 55-60
HR with afib, no meds - 110
HR with afib, I didn't take anything before my second ablation - CHADS score of 2 and not many afib episodes.
Today, 3 yrs after my second ablation and no reoccurring afib:
HR without afib - 60
What seems strange to me is that my HR while in afib before the first ablation was180, and 13 years later while in afib the rate was 110.
Were you on a rate control drug with the above recording?
For me, in the beginning 20 years ago:
HR without afib - 55
HR with afib, no meds - 180
HR with afib with rate control - 80-100, but I don't have a clear recollection.
13 years after my first ablation when afib returned:
HR without afib - 55-60
HR with afib, no meds - 110
HR with afib, I didn't take anything before my second ablation - CHADS score of 2 and not many afib episodes.
Today, 3 yrs after my second ablation and no reoccurring afib:
HR without afib - 60
What seems strange to me is that my HR while in afib before the first ablation was180, and 13 years later while in afib the rate was 110.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 19, 2022 09:59AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 920 |
AVG HR while in AFib, late 2015, before my first ablation and without meds was 160-180 BPM. NSR at rest around 50 BPM.
4 procedures later, since early 2019, AVG HR while in AFib and without meds is 115-135 BPM. NSR at rest around 60 BPM.
Still no meds since my episodes are short and self-ending.
4 procedures later, since early 2019, AVG HR while in AFib and without meds is 115-135 BPM. NSR at rest around 60 BPM.
Still no meds since my episodes are short and self-ending.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 19, 2022 11:31AM |
Registered: 12 years ago Posts: 501 |
Just speculation, but it seems that ablations may cause a reduction in max HR if afib returns with no rate control drugs.
Something I posted before, but my max HR (no meds or afib) is now around 120. Prior to afib and ablation, it was much higher. I even had a stress test to check it out and see if there was some other issue. I know age has an impact on max HR, but for my age, it should be around 145. When exercising to the max, I seem to reach oxygen debt much quicker than years ago, and I believe that since my max HR peaks at around 120 I simply don't get enough blood moving through my heart because of a less than ideal HR.
There was a more detailed discussion about this phenomenon a couple of years ago: [www.afibbers.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2022 11:33AM by Ken.
Something I posted before, but my max HR (no meds or afib) is now around 120. Prior to afib and ablation, it was much higher. I even had a stress test to check it out and see if there was some other issue. I know age has an impact on max HR, but for my age, it should be around 145. When exercising to the max, I seem to reach oxygen debt much quicker than years ago, and I believe that since my max HR peaks at around 120 I simply don't get enough blood moving through my heart because of a less than ideal HR.
There was a more detailed discussion about this phenomenon a couple of years ago: [www.afibbers.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2022 11:33AM by Ken.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 19, 2022 12:39PM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 4,231 |
Quote
Ken
GeorgeN
Were you on a rate control drug with the above recording?
Ken,
No, I've never taken rate control meds, even with PIP flec, as that is how it was prescribed in 2004 & I've maintained that since (I'm well aware of the risks rate control mitigates and don't suggest others do what I do). In 2004, my afib heart rate was in the 80's during my 2 1/2 month persistent episode. Now, it ranges between 80 and 140 generally. If I'm very quiet and still and perhaps do something like an inversion on rings or a headstand, I can get it below 80. If I'm active, which I only do during an episode when I'm trying something to convert. I've pushed it as high as 215-220, but don't let it stay there. As I note in this post, I figured out my PIP flec dose was too high and causing conversion to flutter, which I'd have to do something to convert back to afib to convert to NSR.
I'm 67 and in NSR, I do a lot of Zone 2 cardio at around 110-113 BPM. Once or twice a week, I'll to Tabatas 8x(13 sec absolute max, 17 sec 50 watts) on my Schwinn Airdyne fan bike. I can push my heart rate to 145. Haven't done sustained high output for a long time to see what my absolute max heart rate is. Generally, I'm in the 50's during the day and 40's during sleep, with a low around 41-43.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/22/2022 07:13AM by GeorgeN.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 20, 2022 04:16AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 920 |
Quote
Ken
Just speculation, but it seems that ablations may cause a reduction in max HR if afib returns with no rate control drugs.
Something I posted before, but my max HR (no meds or afib) is now around 120. Prior to afib and ablation, it was much higher. I even had a stress test to check it out and see if there was some other issue. I know age has an impact on max HR, but for my age, it should be around 145. When exercising to the max, I seem to reach oxygen debt much quicker than years ago, and I believe that since my max HR peaks at around 120 I simply don't get enough blood moving through my heart because of a less than ideal HR.
There was a more detailed discussion about this phenomenon a couple of years ago: [www.afibbers.org]
I've re-read the discussion.
Three years later, my HR while in AFib is lower.
My max HR during a recent stress test reached 152BPM (140 back then). I'm 64.
It seems I need time to recover from burns in my atria...
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 21, 2022 03:25AM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
The physician who performed my angiogram came to me to discharge me and said he wanted to double my metoprolol because my HR was above 150 a lot of the time I was in AF. Too high for a man near 70. In fact, just prior to entering the surgery I was at 180!
I do have recurrent AF, confirmed by my EP. But I was ablated in late July, and now my AF happens seldom, about every other week, and the rate never exceeds 135.
I do have recurrent AF, confirmed by my EP. But I was ablated in late July, and now my AF happens seldom, about every other week, and the rate never exceeds 135.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 21, 2022 11:30PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
Quote
gloaming
The physician who performed my angiogram came to me to discharge me and said he wanted to double my metoprolol because my HR was above 150 a lot of the time I was in AF. Too high for a man near 70. In fact, just prior to entering the surgery I was at 180!
I do have recurrent AF, confirmed by my EP. But I was ablated in late July, and now my AF happens seldom, about every other week, and the rate never exceeds 135.
How long does your tachycardia last?
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 05:47PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 06:16PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
Quote
Carey
Yes, the whole point of your AV node ablation was to disconnect your atria from the ventricles so it doesn't matter what your atria are doing. You can now ignore what your atria are doing because it's totally irrelevant to you. Your PM controls how fast your ventricles beat now, and that's all that matters.
What about my atria, while disconnected, still beating as fast as 297 but I don’t feel it? Or my 110hr afib which I do feel? Won’t afib contribute to enlarging my left atrium?
You once wrote your ablation is a monkey cage with an excited monkey going ape sh#t but you don’t feel it like my tachycardia (I feel my afib or PVCs) and it won’t do harm. Would there be a risk for your left atrium to enlarge or anyone with a successful ablation with an excited afib monkey on crack?
[www.afibbers.org]
“ Quite true, but that's my point. A successful ablation means that nothing the monkey does in the cage can escape and cause harm elsewhere, so why would I care if the monkey is excited? I bet my monkey has been going ape shit for almost four years now but I've been totally unaware and I see no reason to try to calm my monkey. He does what he does but because of my last ablation he just doesn't matter. ”
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 06:59PM |
Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 738 |
Question about the crazy monkey: before an ablation does his crack habit affect the SA node and mess with it generating a steady beat? And to follow, after a successful ablation is it that his craziness is caged and thus doesn’t affect the SA node…or is the problem before an ablation something entirely different?
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 07:02PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
Quote
susan.d
What about my atria, while disconnected, still beating as fast as 297 but I don’t feel it? Or my 110hr afib which I do feel? Won’t afib contribute to enlarging my left atrium?
Yes, it probably will contribute to LA enlargement, but again -- so what? It's not harmful in and of itself.
The 110 tachycardia you're experiencing isn't afib. It's sinus tachycardia, probably due to the inflammation from the AV ablation. It will settle down with time. It's now physically impossible for you to experience tachycardia due to anything happening in your atria.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 07:10PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
Quote
Daisy
Question about the crazy monkey: before an ablation does his crack habit affect the SA node and mess with it generating a steady beat? And to follow, after a successful ablation is it that his craziness is caged and thus doesn’t affect the SA node…or is the problem before an ablation something entirely different?
Afib has no effect on the SA node and neither does an ablation. During afib your SA node is probably firing regularly at it's normal rate, but in between each beat you've got afib signals generated by atrial cells that shouldn't be firing on their own bouncing around your atria randomly. Those signals get transmitted down through the AV node to your ventricles, which causes the rapid, irregular heartbeat you feel. What the "cage" of an ablation does is put cage around those errant cells that are firing randomly so that they can't escape. In a traditional PVI procedure, that cage is simply a circle of burns surrounding your pulmonary veins. That doesn't stop the tissue in the pulmonary veins from creating afib signals, it just stops them from going anywhere. So like I said, if you were to put a mapping catheter inside my pulmonary veins, I'm sure you'd see afib blazing away even today. And yet, I've been in 100% NSR since September 2017.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 10:39PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
I must be dense. If your afib is blazing away, isn’t it quivering your atria thus enlarging your LA? That’s the MO of afib-it quivers and not beats normally to empty chambers. It’s doing an afib monkey dance regardless. It shouldn’t differ between the actual pumping/quivering of an AFib episode and that of a successful monkey cage AFib blazing away except for heart rate I suppose. It’s still on crack.
You commented about a possibility of my LA getting enlarged, you said so what, it’s not harmful in or of itself. That’s what confuses me. A reason someone would get an index ablation to begin with is to cut down on LA enlargement…which technically is accumulative and harmful and enlarging one’s heart over time.
You commented about a possibility of my LA getting enlarged, you said so what, it’s not harmful in or of itself. That’s what confuses me. A reason someone would get an index ablation to begin with is to cut down on LA enlargement…which technically is accumulative and harmful and enlarging one’s heart over time.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 22, 2022 11:55PM |
Admin Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 5,358 |
Quote
susan.d
I must be dense. If your afib is blazing away, isn’t it quivering your atria thus enlarging your LA? That’s the MO of afib-it quivers and not beats normally to empty chambers. It’s doing an afib monkey dance regardless. It shouldn’t differ between the actual pumping/quivering of an AFib episode and that of a successful monkey cage AFib blazing away except for heart rate I suppose. It’s still on crack.
You commented about a possibility of my LA getting enlarged, you said so what, it’s not harmful in or of itself. That’s what confuses me. A reason someone would get an index ablation to begin with is to cut down on LA enlargement…which technically is accumulative and harmful and enlarging one’s heart over time.
My afib is blazing away in my pulmonary veins and a few other places, but there's a line of ablation scars completely circling those places, so the afib signals can't go anywhere beyond them. That's the whole 'monkey in the cage' concept. An ablation doesn't kill the monkey, it just puts it in a cage.
Enlarging your left atrium is harmful if you're planning on trying to stop your afib via drugs or ablation because that will make it harder. But you're not going to do that. You've chosen to electrically disconnect your atria from the rest of your heart, so once again, it simply doesn't matter what your atria are doing. If your left atrium gets enlarged, it just won't matter to you.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 23, 2022 05:03PM |
Registered: 1 year ago Posts: 792 |
One of the reasons that getting ablated as soon as practicable after being diagnosed is the best policy. Atrial enlargement is not a good thing, although I think I read that it can reverse itself to an extent if it isn't forced to keep beating just when the ventricle beats, with each essentially confounding the other.
The ventricle is the stronger muscle, so it acts like a concrete wall to the misbehaving atrium, which tries to expel blood against a much stronger opposing pressure than when it fires legitimately, just before the ventricle contracts. It is this high back-pressure, from what I understand, that eventually causes the atrium to enlarge in order to do its job better. Except, that's not what it does...it actually makes the muscle thicker and less efficient.
The ventricle is the stronger muscle, so it acts like a concrete wall to the misbehaving atrium, which tries to expel blood against a much stronger opposing pressure than when it fires legitimately, just before the ventricle contracts. It is this high back-pressure, from what I understand, that eventually causes the atrium to enlarge in order to do its job better. Except, that's not what it does...it actually makes the muscle thicker and less efficient.
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 23, 2022 06:27PM |
Registered: 10 years ago Posts: 2,520 |
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gloaming
One of the reasons that getting ablated as soon as practicable after being diagnosed is the best policy.
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If someone has minor symptoms and can live a normal life, an ablation is still the first line of defense? What about collateral flutter damage, caused by the ablation’s scar tissue being formed, being a big deciding factor if one never had flutter beforehand?
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Re: Treatment of AFIB according to Earth Clinic' readers December 23, 2022 07:41PM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 819 |
Quote
gloaming
One of the reasons that getting ablated as soon as practicable after being diagnosed is the best policy. Atrial enlargement is not a good thing, although I think I read that it can reverse itself to an extent if it isn't forced to keep beating just when the ventricle beats.
My atria was quite enlarged after about 4 months in permanent AF in 2015. After the second cardio version my AF is paroxysmal, after an ultrasound earlier this year the cardiologist told me that my atria is only very slightly enlarged.
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