Ectopics from Vitamin K-2 mk7

I know a lot of you on this forum are fans of Vitamin k-2. I regularly consume natto for breakfast and recently switched to pill form about 100mcg of Vitamin k-2 mk7 made from natto in Japan. A week later I started getting frequent ectopics which seem to increase as I continued to take K-2, in fact I took 200mcg just to experiment and sure enough by evening time the ectopics increased. I continued this for a week and im 100% sure its the cause, I just can't figure out why? Anyone experienced this? I searched online and there's a lot of reports about palpitations and insomnia associated with k-2 specifically mk7. I had the same symptoms with vitamin d-3 and it felt the same way so I think there's something here with the way it moves calcium as both Vitamin d-3 and vitamin k-2 play a role with calcium transport. Vitamin k-2 mk7 stays in your system for 3 days but after stopping it on day 2 the ectopics vanished.

I don't know much about the effects of taking too much k2 but have had afib after taking too much vitamin D.
I would recommend you stay with natto, because from one packet (45gms) of natto you get about 400 mcg of K2 mk7 and some mk4 plus K1, it also contains about 100mgs of calcium.

IMO natto is a "superfood". For those who want to know more of the benefits of natto, see the link below.
[draxe.com]

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johnnyS
I regularly consume natto for breakfast and recently switched to pill form about 100mcg of Vitamin k-2 mk7 made from natto in Japan. A week later I started getting frequent ectopics which seem to increase as I continued to take K-2, in fact I took 200mcg just to experiment and sure enough by evening time the ectopics increased. I continued this for a week and im 100% sure its the cause, I just can't figure out why? Anyone experienced this? I searched online and there's a lot of reports about palpitations and insomnia associated with k-2 specifically mk7.

In some of the online reports I've read, MK4 & MK7 together have, in some cases, been OK for some who've had issues with only MK7.

I've taken a product that has 25 mg of MK-4, 0.5 mg of MK-7, 5 mg of K1 and 2 mg of Astaxanthin without issue.

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colindo
IMO natto is a "superfood".

When poster, Dean, from Australia started his continuing successful afib remission run using natto food ~15 years ago (story from 2007 is on p 27 of this, I consumed natto for ~8 months. I then went on a trip without it and digestive issues I had been having went away, so I stopped using it. I've wondered if it was the soy that I was reacting to (I'm sensitive to a long laundry list of foods) and thought about making my own fermenting black beans instead of soy, but haven't ever acted on that thought.

Johnny - could be something else in the product.

I take a lot of MK7 daily + natto at times.

If you had no issues with natto and do have issues with the product, then it's not MK7.

DHEA I used in pills ended up having 10x the amount it should have - MD was alarmed when he saw my labs.

Quality control for some supplements isn't good. Try a different brand to isolate to MK7,

johnnyS - If you've been consuming natto food regularly and without incident, then why not continue with that?

I have a slight food sensitivity to soy so I have relied on the K2 MK7 for many years. The most recent brand I've used is
Jarrow Formulas... K2 MK7 ... probably for 5 years (at least) with no problems. It's 90 mcg/softgel and I take 2 daily in winter months to correlate with the higher Vitamin D dosing I need in winter.

Jackie

Johnny.. exactly the same happened to me I tried it many times then stopped taking the vit k2 mk7. I was taking the Jarrow brand 90 micrograms.I do not have any issue with vit D .
Perhaps changing the brand might be useful but I doubt it.

Ben



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2021 01:38PM by ben saif.

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GeorgeN
I've wondered if it was the soy that I was reacting to (I'm sensitive to a long laundry list of foods) and thought about making my own fermenting black beans instead of soy, but haven't ever acted on that thought.

I would love to know more about making one's own natto - and from black beans, not soy. If you have recipe or any ideas, would love to see it. Also, where would one get starter? And would it be same starter as soy natto?

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PoetKim

I would love to know more about making one's own natto - and from black beans, not soy. If you have recipe or any ideas, would love to see it. Also, where would one get starter?

Lots in this search [www.google.com] You can used many different beans, smaller is better because fermentation is more efficient.

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And would it be same starter as soy natto?

Yes, you could also use the soy natto you buy as a starter. I've read that this works better than the powder starters.

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GeorgeN
Yes, you could also use the soy natto you buy as a starter. I've read that this works better than the powder starters.

All the soy natto I have seen and tried is little frozen packets from Japan. I have always wondered if the live culture actually survives freezing. The instructions say must consume in one week after opening. I would not think that would be necessary if there is a live culture and fermentation continuing.

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PoetKim
I have always wondered if the live culture actually survives freezing. The instructions say must consume in one week after opening. I would not think that would be necessary if there is a live culture and fermentation continuing.

I think it does. I think the "bugs" are part of the "magic" of natto. Dean used to post things on Bacillus subtilis which is the natto bacteria. I recall a story where the Germans were having a huge problem with dysentery in North Africa in WWII. Many were dying. Then the noticed the natives would eat fresh camel dung (which has Bacillus subtilis in it) and have no problem. Some German soldiers ate it, but then they figured out how to put it in a pill.

Here is a story on using the frozen natto as a starter: [www.nattodad.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2021 08:48PM by GeorgeN.

Natto culture definitely survives freezing - there are people that leave it out of fridge longer to develop further. Not me though.

I like my with olive oil. Helps the MK7 absorb better too.

Doesn’t Natto have blood thinning properties? If so, won’t it interfere with a NOAC like Eliquis?

Yes, Susan. Nattokinase extracted from purified natto (food)....so you wouldn't want to combine with a NOAC.

Jackie

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susan.d
Doesn’t Natto have blood thinning properties?

It does but not by much. For blood thinning I need to take nattokinase as well.

Without going into great detail nattokinase works differently than eliquis. Eliquis stops the clotting process where as nattokinase helps the body dissolve clots.
This link will explain it better [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2021 12:56PM by colindo.

Thanks for the link. I miss tofu. Sloan Kettering told me to avoid soy and flaxseed because they are not cancer remission friendly otherwise I would have tried natto. Could I get the benefits from a non soybean recipe?

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susan.d
Thanks for the link. I miss tofu. Sloan Kettering told me to avoid soy and flaxseed because they are not cancer remission friendly otherwise I would have tried natto. Could I get the benefits from a non soybean recipe?

Natto is fermented soybean and therefore is not like the standard soybean. This is what Dr Mercola has to say about it.
"I don’t generally advise eating soy products since they are related to various health problems. However, natto is one of the few soy dishes I recommend. The fermentation process removes the disadvantages associated with eating raw or cooked soy, so you’re left with a dish that is filled with probiotics and nutrients that can help optimize your health."

[recipes.mercola.com]

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susan.d
Thanks for the link. I miss tofu. Sloan Kettering told me to avoid soy and flaxseed because they are not cancer remission friendly otherwise I would have tried natto. Could I get the benefits from a non soybean recipe?

I'm guessing they said that because of the phytoestrogens in soy & flax. If other beans agree, then I'd use them to make natto. Physically small beans work better & by pressure cooking before fermenting, you deactivate the bean lectins.

This is a soy recipe for an Instant pot, but should work for most beans: [athomeinpuertorico.com]

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GeorgeN

Thanks for the link. I miss tofu. Sloan Kettering told me to avoid soy and flaxseed because they are not cancer remission friendly otherwise I would have tried natto. Could I get the benefits from a non soybean recipe?

I'm guessing they said that because of the phytoestrogens in soy & flax. If other beans agree, then I'd use them to make natto. Physically small beans work better & by pressure cooking before fermenting, you deactivate the bean lectins.

This is a soy recipe for an Instant pot, but should work for most beans: [athomeinpuertorico.com]

Thanks George. I don’t want to risk soy
[academic.oup.com]

Yet the flip side differs in stating it helps prevent breast cancer.
[scholar.google.com]

[scholar.google.com]

Reminds me of coconut oil. Cedars-Sinai once told me it was a “good” fat” but now state to avoid. So it’s difficult to know what to believe.

susan.d,

you may be interested to read this from [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


The present study found a statistically inverse association between risk of breast cancer and soybean products (tofu) or isoflavones intake in Japanese premenopausal women while there was no statistically significant link among their postmenopausal counterparts.

Soybean foods are rich in precursors of the isoflavone daidzein and genistein, which are heterocyclic phenols similar in structure to oestrogens, and it has been hypothesised that a high dietary intake of soybean products might reduce breast cancer risk by interfering with the action of endogenous oestradiol (Messina, 1999). The results are in line with the inverse association between intake of soybean products and breast cancer risk suggested from ecological/cross-sectional studies (Adlercreutz, 1995; Adlercreutz and Mazur, 1997), and also from analytical investigations. Thus, case–control studies have found that soybean food intake was associated with a decreased risk of breast cancer among premenopausal Singapore women (Lee et al, 1991).

Different varieties of breast cancers fair better with soy. HER-2 is one if not the most aggressive overall. Tumor biopsies grade HER-2 from 0-3 scores in aggressiveness. I’m a 3 so I do limit my soy to only by product emulsifiers that contains soy. Happy I read this thread because I was risking soybean oil contained in my favorite salad dressing. Wake up call for me to switch dressings.

[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Black bean soy is not HER-2 friendly in recurrence risks. Natto then possibly may not be a good choice if any reader has HER-2 history and a high tumor score...just saying... and it’s not limited to women. A male Lyft driver told me he has breast cancer.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2021 08:34PM by susan.d.

i don't eat anything with Soy, i have thyroid problems and soy will interfere with the thyroid hormone uptake. i also realized that soy also gives me aura migraines. I think soy is greatly overrated, i don't think it is good for us.

L

It's long been known soy should be avoided.... and there are lots of negative findings for soy oil as well... just search online. I learned to avoid because a soy 'sensitivity' showed up in one of my specialty lab tests years ago and I also learned that it's difficult to avoid if you don't eat just whole foods, prepared at home ... as restaurant and commercial foods often contain soybean oil.

There is an old book, The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food by Kaayla Daniel, PhD, CCN... and comments in the article by Weston Price Foundation worth noting. (links below)


[www.westonaprice.org]

[www.amazon.com]


Jackie

Thanks Jackie. I won’t eat the salad dressing with soybean oil anymore. It was the best thousand island dressing ever. Comfort food after a tachy run in. I also stopped chocolate since 2004. I had a tiny 1”
“x1” bite of a gluten free chocolate chip cookie last month to test my ablation. Af. So that is another food I will miss.

Update, it wasn’t the k-2, I seem to have what one other person on this forum has which is too much acid traveling upwards. When I consumed nattto it didn’t happen but as soon as I switched to k-2 supplements, within a month it become an issue. When I resumed fasting and quit taking any supplements ectopics vanished, as soon as I started eating they came back, so this time I took famitidine h2 and ectopics vanished again and haven’t been back at all. So I’m not sure if natto is making me produce too much acid or something else is going on but I’ll keep the famitidine for the next month and see what happens, since there’s little to no harm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2021 03:42AM by johnnyS.