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Just went into an episode

Posted by shca67 
Just went into an episode
August 26, 2020 09:46PM
Been here since 06...flipped into an episode tonight. Take 50 mg Atenelol in the am...rate kind of high tonight. Should I take another Atenelol and see if I self convert or should I get cardioverted right away?

Had last cardiovdersion last August...

Thanks!
Re: Just went into an episode
August 26, 2020 09:59PM
So sorry to hear this. Did you call up your cardiologist to ask his advise since he knows your history?
Re: Just went into an episode
August 26, 2020 11:32PM
No...trying to relax and see if I can convert at home prior to going to ER...
Re: Just went into an episode
August 26, 2020 11:44PM
Someone on this forum went to the ER in Monday. She called her EP up prior and he made arrangements with the ER so by her arrival she was expected, things went quicker. Just a thought.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 02:13AM
Knowing what I know now, if I just had afib and nothing else, I wouldn't go to the ER before having talk to my EP or cardiologist.
But it's me, of course.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 08:08AM
I am going to call my EP here this am...took an extra 50 mg of Atenelol and then laid down last night. Rate control was good and I did get some decent sleep but here it is, 7:00am and I am still out of rythym.

Just trying to avoid the ER but it looks like I will likely be cardioverted if I don't convert this am...
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 08:49AM
6 hours they wait to ecv after last your meal...usually, I’m sure each Er has their own protocol. It’s something to think about after eating and then visiting the Er - otherwise you may have to wait longer in the Er
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 11:06AM
Do you typically convert on your own, or is this the first episode in a long, long time so you don't know? My EP said not to worry about clots until after 24 hours, so I always let my body convert on its own. Luckily it would within 12-18 hours. You still in it now?
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 11:07AM
Just talked to my EP...since my rate is in the 80's/90's and I have having minimal discomfort (first time for this!), plus the fact that I ate a banana and a smoothie at 7:30am, they are recommending I take a 20mg Xarelto this am(left over from 1 year ago), and rest today. If the AFIB persists overnight, they will refer me for an ECV tomorrow morning at a cardiologist to avoid the ER. This seems reasonable to me with my current symptoms...thoughts?

Had three AFIB episodes in 2006/2007 and some very brief episodic moments in between...nothing until Jan of 2019, then had my fourth episode. This was followed by an episode last August and then last night. Converted on my own for the first, chemically for #2 and then last three have been ECV. I have followed this board advice RE: the potassium load since 2007, albeit via natural foods not supplements(I don't take any)...I am male, 53 and have a BMI of 22...to say this is frustrating is an understatement. Daily's include 50 mg Atenelol since 07, baby aspirin and 70mg of Lipitor as I had a high calcium score a few years back.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 11:36AM
Quote
shca67
Just talked to my EP...since my rate is in the 80's/90's and I have having minimal discomfort (first time for this!), plus the fact that I ate a banana and a smoothie at 7:30am, they are recommending I take a 20mg Xarelto this am(left over from 1 year ago), and rest today. If the AFIB persists overnight, they will refer me for an ECV tomorrow morning at a cardiologist to avoid the ER. This seems reasonable to me with my current symptoms...thoughts?

Yes, sounds like a reasonable plan for the short term. But it sounds like you might need to be thinking about what to do for the long term if the episodes start becoming more frequent. They did for me. I went from 2002 to 2008 experiencing one or two episodes per year that always self-terminated within 6 hours, but by 2010 they had increased to weekly affairs lasting over 12 hours. Afib tends to do that.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 11:51AM
Yes, that's what the data shows. Hopeful that I can kick this down the road for another 12 years but if not, I did have a prelim discussion with the nurse today...she confirmed the 'typical protocol' would be to start an anti arrythymic plan until that no longer works and then consider an ablation...unless the medicinal path was intolerable.

I am going to jump back into my previously succesful protocol which inlcuded miminizing alcohol and getting adequate sleep...two area's where I can get lax...and each of my recent afib episodes have been preceded by overindulging and not getting adequate rest in the days prior.

As for today, starting to have longer runs of sinus rythym...hopeful I can convert. Any other tips to assist the conversion process? I am drinking water, resting and will be taking another atenelol here at noon...
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 12:51PM
I'm very different, since my episodes are frequent, short and self converting, but while in afib, I'm used to drink lots of water. It seems needed, for I've to pee every 20 min or so, even if I avoid drinking. My body works getting rid of I don't know what. Not drinking leads to dehydration, which is bad and might prolong afib.
I always self convert in less than 2 hours. If I don't, I take my OAC. Murphy's law : I self convert shorty after having swallowed the pill.
Having some NSR sequences between runs of afib is always a sign I'll soon convert.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 01:35PM
Quote
shca67
Hopeful that I can kick this down the road for another 12 years but if not, I did have a prelim discussion with the nurse today...she confirmed the 'typical protocol' would be to start an anti arrythymic plan until that no longer works and then consider an ablation...unless the medicinal path was intolerable.

Not for this episode, but for the future.

1. Discuss a script for an on-demand (PIP or pill in pocket) med like flecainide or propafenone for use to convert a future episode and minimize the time out of rhythm.

2. How much do you exercise?

3. Is the for high blood pressure?
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 01:49PM
Shca67

I also have a high CAC score and have studied the subject extensively for the last 18 months. I am currently regressing my CAC score at a 19% annual rate. You're still young so there is time to get back down to 0. PM me.

I can tell you this much and it's backed by research and many published papers - taking statins will cause your CAC to progress at higher rates and concrete your plaque (not a a good thing).

I wouldn't take it a statin even if it would cure my AF overnight.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 02:18PM
Yes, the PIP protocol is first on my list. My exercise is minimal however, I am fairly active...yardwork, golf, running around with the kids. Atenelol was originally prescribed to deal with moderate high blood pressure/heart rate in the context of my first three AFIB episodes...blood pressure was 125-130/85-90. Since the beta blocker, BP is regularly 115/70 with heart rate in the high 50's/low 60's. I had always believed the beta blocker was running off the afib as well...AND I used to have lots of PVC's/PAC/s...holter monitors caught this. The beta blocker/high potassium has settled those for several years.

When I received the calcium score 3 years ago...184 was the score, it placed my in the 90th% for a 50 year old. 6'2", 190 was my weight and I had a diet of whatever/whenever. My EP hooked me up with a very good cardiologist, in my perspective, and we started down a road of major diet changes and max Lipitor dosage. The diet is loosely based on the Esselstyn/Cleveland Clinic however I had to add some salmon and chicken for the protein. My HDL has bumped up from 29 to 40, Tri's are normal, and my LDL has dropped from 115 down to 45-50. In short, my ratio is very good...however, I do have the small LDL particle concern...have been told this is likely genetic. No caffeine, and virtually 0 fats are in my diet...(no red meat and minimal dairy products with a major emphasis on fruits, vegetables, rice and beans.

The cholesteral issue is in my family...sort of...my grandmother has bypass surgery at 80 and lived to 104. And my 81 year old mother is on a statin as well...smiling smiley
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 04:34PM
Any thoughts out regarding things to help push me back into NSR yet today? I am having runs of NSR via my Apple Watch...and my heart rate is 70-90 at rest...Kind of in a holding pattern here...
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 05:03PM
Quote
shca67
Any thoughts out regarding things to help push me back into NSR yet today? I am having runs of NSR via my Apple Watch...and my heart rate is 70-90 at rest...Kind of in a holding pattern here...

Could be slow flutter. Assume the low rate may be because of the Atenelol.

One option is magnesium. Perhaps citrate to bowel tolerance.

Another is a vagal maneuver, assuming a adrenergic or sympathetic trigger. Don't try #6 [www.webmd.com]
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 05:24PM
Quote
shca67
Yes, the PIP protocol is first on my list. My exercise is minimal however, I am fairly active...yardwork, golf, running around with the kids. Atenelol was originally prescribed to deal with moderate high blood pressure/heart rate in the context of my first three AFIB episodes...blood pressure was 125-130/85-90. Since the beta blocker, BP is regularly 115/70 with heart rate in the high 50's/low 60's. I had always believed the beta blocker was running off the afib as well...AND I used to have lots of PVC's/PAC/s...holter monitors caught this. The beta blocker/high potassium has settled those for several years.

When I received the calcium score 3 years ago...184 was the score, it placed my in the 90th% for a 50 year old. 6'2", 190 was my weight and I had a diet of whatever/whenever. My EP hooked me up with a very good cardiologist, in my perspective, and we started down a road of major diet changes and max Lipitor dosage. The diet is loosely based on the Esselstyn/Cleveland Clinic however I had to add some salmon and chicken for the protein. My HDL has bumped up from 29 to 40, Tri's are normal, and my LDL has dropped from 115 down to 45-50. In short, my ratio is very good...however, I do have the small LDL particle concern...have been told this is likely genetic. No caffeine, and virtually 0 fats are in my diet...(no red meat and minimal dairy products with a major emphasis on fruits, vegetables, rice and beans.

The cholesteral issue is in my family...sort of...my grandmother has bypass surgery at 80 and lived to 104. And my 81 year old mother is on a statin as well...smiling smiley

If the beta blocker is keeping you from having afib, could mean a sympathetic or adrenergic trigger (see [www.afibbers.org])

The BB may be keeping your blood pressure in range, but is not addressing any root cause. My first goto for higher BP is higher insulin. I ate a diet like yours for 17 years. In the 16th year (2006), 2 years after starting afib, I got a glucometer and learned how "whole grain goodness" was impacting my post meal blood sugars. I used to make oatmeal from organic whole oat groats that I would run through a mill. After a nice breakfast serving, I tested 140 mg/dl an hour after eating the oatmeal. This set me on a quest to control blood sugar elevation after eating. Ultimately, I learned of the work of Dr. Joseph Kraft and found that I likely (in retrospect) had an abnormal insulin response. A brief summary of his work is here. This is his first paper on the topic (reformatted by Meridian Valley Lab). Fructose can impact the kidney negatively and the kidney is a source of much blood pressure elevation. Just treating for BP adds a point in the CHA2DS2-VASc calculation for anticoagulant therapy.

The glucose/insulin elevation can also create small dense LDL (sdLCL-C). Hence addressing glucose/insulin can address the sdLDL-C also (and by extension oxidized LDL, oxLDL, which is the real problem).

You are young to have that CAC score. Once you have coronary calcium, the expected increase is 25% or more per year. If you can maintain 15% per year or less increase in your VOLUME score (not Aggaston), your risk is nearly as low as someone with a 0 score (per the Raggi paper).

NotLyingAboutMyAfib has a high score, which he has either managed to reverse or at least hold stable (there are error bars around readings). He has posted about it on this board. He is getting ablated tomorrow in Austin by Dr. Natale. I believe he mimicked Pat's approach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2020 05:43PM by GeorgeN.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 09:08PM
Interestingly, this episode of afib is much less chaotic than normal...heart rate is in the 70's - 100's and the beats are more 'regular' irregular. When I look at the EKG via my Apple Watch, it does correlate with an Afib strip vs an Aflutter result...plan is to call my EP in the am and get the ECV performed...took 20mg of Xarelto at 2:30pm and 50mg of Atenelol at 12:00ish...

Still hopeful I convert overnight...went I purchased some low sodium V8 for the first time in years...let's hope this works!
Re: Just went into an episode
August 27, 2020 10:16PM
Stay hydrated.
Re: Just went into an episode
August 31, 2020 01:37PM
Went in Friday am to a local ER as EP group had procedures all day. Rate was steady, between 80 - 100 controlled with my beta blocker. They did the usual blood work, administered the thinner in the belly, waited 40 minutes and then gave me a shock. Interesting, they provided a very small dose of propofol....60mg, then 10 more, then 10 more, then gave me the juice. i was a little loopy but felt, and remembered, the entire shock, including the hot burning feeling and my body getting kicked up...200J is what they delivered.

Sent home 15 minutes later with 20mg of Xaletra for the next 30 days...speaking to my EP tomorrow and will be requesting PIP moving forward.

Back to the drawing board with my diet...with emphasis on Mg and K and keeping hydrated...
Re: Just went into an episode
September 01, 2020 02:31PM
Good to read your progress shca67 and absolutely hydration is ESSENTIAL.
Re: Just went into an episode
September 01, 2020 11:34PM
Quote
shca67
Went in Friday am to a local ER as EP group had procedures all day. Rate was steady, between 80 - 100 controlled with my beta blocker. They did the usual blood work, administered the thinner in the belly, waited 40 minutes and then gave me a shock. Interesting, they provided a very small dose of propofol....60mg, then 10 more, then 10 more, then gave me the juice. i was a little loopy but felt, and remembered, the entire shock, including the hot burning feeling and my body getting kicked up...200J is what they delivered.

Sent home 15 minutes later with 20mg of Xaletra for the next 30 days...speaking to my EP tomorrow and will be requesting PIP moving forward.

Back to the drawing board with my diet...with emphasis on Mg and K and keeping hydrated...


Is this a fairly common protocol for an ECV? Totally unlike the two I have experienced and one I do not want to experience. Say it ain’t so or just lie!
Re: Just went into an episode
September 02, 2020 12:23AM
It's all over the map with ERs. Some do cardioversions correctly with a knock-out dose of propofol and others do stupid crap with conscious sedation using versed, low doses of propofol (as in this example), or even ketamine. If you're going to undergo a cardioversion, demand that they use sedation that renders you fully unconscious no matter what they're using.
Re: Just went into an episode
September 04, 2020 12:13AM
Thank you.
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