diets

Vets are finding that grain-free dog food is responsible for heart problems in dogs. I wonder if diets that people are on which are grain free may cause a similar problem.

Liz

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Elizabeth
Vets are finding that grain-free dog food is responsible for heart problems in dogs. I wonder if diets that people are on which are grain free may cause a similar problem.

Liz

The issue for dogs is a protein source without taurine. Dog food with a sufficient meat base doesn't have the issue. There was a similar issue with cat food in the mid 1980's. I had a cat who got cardiomyopathy because of it (he was 5 when diagnosed, but lived to 19 under my care). Subsequent to people understanding the problem, cat food was supplemented with taurine. Their natural diet, mice, have one of the highest concentrations of taurine.

It could be a potential issue for human vegans.

Sounds like we (AFers) would benefit from eating mice

Oh Joe, that was funny, a good laugh does one good. I worked hard all day, tilling my garden, picking cherries and I am a little tried, but that post of yours perked me up.

Liz

I have been vegetarian for 30yrs and in past year now plant based (vegan) with no issues. However I do take Taurine 1,000 mgs daily just in case plus of course B12. Re dogs, I make my own dog food and feel that the crap they put in the grain free dog food (tapioca starch etc) and the inferior quality of meat was the problem. I do feed my dog meat but I also include organic whole grains (and of course veggies).

Sometimes it would be best for us to admit we have a heart tissue disease. Call it a disease rather than looking for every cause. Despite all my reading there is never anyone I can find who cured their afib with diet. Sure you can make yourself feel better by being healthy as we are heart patients. But we have an underlying disease likely caused by genetic issues for a lot of us. There are plenty of people here who are perfectly healthy, eat like a saint, aren't overweight, don't drink and on and on but were still lucky enough to get afib.

I honestly feel the narrative needs to change from AFIB being a stand alone thing to a disease by itself. Just because some people can live with it does not make it any less of a disease. Some of us had heart failure as a result despite being young and doing nothing to bring it on ourselves.

I digress, eat lots of dog food so long as it is organic.

Fibrillator::

I got my first taste of AF when I was taking too high a dose of Synthroid for my Thyroid which made me hyper. Now I will say it no doubt is in my DNA because my mother had AF, but she didn't get it until her 80s. I don't think AF is a disease, something affects the electrical process in the heart, for me the excess meds made my heart work too much. same with people that over exercise which stimulates their heart muscle too much.

I also believe that we should get as much vitamins as we can from our food and if we have to take supplements because we are not getting it from the food we have chosen to eat, I say that is wrong. Taurine and Vit. B12 is easily gotten from food, if you take supplements for that how do you know what source it comes from. That is what I believe, everyone is different and believes they are right so be it.

Liz

Agreed, not arguing. To my knowledge there are 4 genes currently associated with afib identified at moment, I am sure Shannon will correct me. My recent test showed I carried 3 of them.

The word disease is hard to define sometimes, however call it an "issue" if you want with rogue cells developing and firing in a manner they should not. Is it possible someone has thyroid or nutritional issues that cause it, of course, but many here are too quick to blame simple things that I have yet to see conclusive proof of.

And we all know, that those that are perfectly healthy and have a successful ablation often need one many years later due to progression and nothing that person is doing. Usually people after afib tend to live very healthy and yet their tissue continues to change. Progression.

If this was called heart tissue disease and not lone afib we might get better research. To me it would be like saying cancer is not a disease just "something" that causes your cells to divide wrong. Would not make sense. Yes something causes our heart to fire wrong, abnormal cells.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2019 09:17PM by Fibrillator.

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Fibrillator
Despite all my reading there is never anyone I can find who cured their afib with diet

I would never use the word "cure," however I am aware of some case study subjects who changed to my doc's low lectin diet and put their afib in remission. That being said, it hasn't impacted my afib at all. I'm of the opinion it is likely these subjects had metabolic dysfunction which they improved. As chronic fitness was my path, I didn't have a lot of metabolic issues. However, I used to get 3AM episodes. It was also fairly common for me to wake up hot and sweaty. That could have been nighttime hypoglycemia, which disappeared years ago upon becoming keto adapted, now 10 years ago.

Australian EP, Prashanthan Sanders, MBBS, PhD (who trained in Bordeaux, I believe) and his colleagues published a study <[jamanetwork.com] (full paper is available here for free).

Effect of Weight Reduction and Cardiometabolic Risk Factor Management on Symptom Burden and Severity in Patients With Atrial Fibrillation
A Randomized Clinical Trial

Interventions Patients were randomized to weight management (intervention) or general lifestyle advice (control). Both groups underwent intensive management of cardiometabolic risk factors.

Results Of 248 patients screened, 150 were randomized (75 per group) and underwent follow-up. The intervention group showed a significantly greater reduction, compared with the control group, in weight (14.3 and 3.6 kg, respectively; P < .001) and in atrial fibrillation symptom burden scores (11.8 and 2.6 points, P < .001), symptom severity scores (8.4 and 1.7 points, P < .001), number of episodes (2.5 and no change, P = .01), and cumulative duration (692-minute decline and 419-minute increase, P = .002). Additionally, there was a reduction in interventricular septal thickness in the intervention and control groups (1.1 and 0.6 mm, P = .02) and left atrial area (3.5 and 1.9 cm2, P = .02).

Conclusions and Relevance In this study, weight reduction with intensive risk factor management resulted in a reduction in atrial fibrillation symptom burden and severity and in beneficial cardiac remodeling. These findings support therapy directed at weight and risk factors in the management of atrial fibrillation.

Hi George,
by hypoglycemia do you mean below 70?
Reason i'm asking is because i began continuous glucose monitoring (i'm aware that these gadgets are often not very accurate). I've set the lower limit to 75 and some nights it gets lower. Don't think i have AF while sleeping but who knows as i'm not on a monitor.
Dr Attia says optimum is 85 +/-15 - is he right or too conservative?

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Fibrillator
Despite all my reading there is never anyone I can find who cured their afib with diet.

I think I am doing alright taking natto every 2nd day.
Reduced my afib burden from 1 or 2 a month to one this year. Dean thinks it has something to do with genistein contained within the fermented soybean, it's repairing the heart cells. It also contains billions of probiotics among other good things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 06:07AM by colindo.

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Joe
Hi George,
by hypoglycemia do you mean below 70?

I don't think there is an absolute number that matters. It depends on what your system is adapted to. Back when I had those symptoms, I was not wearing a continuous glucose monitor, nor did I get up and measure blood sugar with a meter. I'm not diabetic. I was also eating a vegan, low fat diet. I started playing with a glucometer in 2006. This is because when I started detraining because of afib, I started gaining weight. I'd played American football in college, I was a defensive nose guard and, though small in today's world, was still big. Even though I was very fit, I'd never dropped the football weight. When I detrained, I started putting on more weight. Hence I started playing with blood glucose monitoring. This led me to keto-adapt in 2009, which I've maintained. I then dropped about 45 pounds. Subsequently I've dropped more weight and today weigh what I did in grade 10.

As to hypoglycemia. What I was referring to is more a spike after dinner followed by a steep drop in the middle of the night. If one is not keto adapted, it can be a metabolic crisis for the body. There can be a surge of adrenalin, which will raise your blood sugar. This is reason you can wake up hot and sweaty. If your blood sugar goes low and stays there, you are fine.

In my case, I spend a lot of time sub 70 mg/dL (3.9 mmol/L). When I'm doing multiday fasting, I'm typically below 60 mg/dL (3.3 mmol/L) and sometimes sub 50 (2.8 mmol/L). The lowest I've ever recorded is 31 (1.7). I then went to the gym and set PR's on my lifts. My neurologist climbing buddy says everyone he's seen in the 30's were comatose. I tell him they weren't keto adapted. Clearly hypoglycemia can be very serious for diabetics on insulin and some other meds.

The late Harvard doc, George Cahill, did a lot of work studying fasting and fuel metabolism in the 1960's. He wrote this at the end of his career, describing much of his work <[thehealthsciencesacademy.org]

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Joe
Reason i'm asking is because i began continuous glucose monitoring (i'm aware that these gadgets are often not very accurate). I've set the lower limit to 75 and some nights it gets lower. Don't think i have AF while sleeping but who knows as i'm not on a monitor.
Dr Attia says optimum is 85 +/-15 - is he right or too conservative?

I think Dr. Attia is more concerned with the upward spikes than the drops. He does quarterly seven day water fasts. I would guess his glucose drops into the 50's on those. At least mine and my wife's do.

I recently got a CGM (Abbott Freestyle Libre). Attia uses a Dexcom as he thinks their accuracy is much better than the Libre. I recently got a Libre from a T1 friend who had switched to a Dexcom. I would concur with Attia that the Libre is not particularly accurate. It is in the right direction. It also has strips and I'll prick a finger and test with a strip periodically with its own strips and another meter I have. They generally agree within +/- 15 mg/dL.

Thank you, George. Reduces my confusion/understanding a bit
Enjoyed the link - seems to be saying what Drs Longo & Fung et. al. are saying?
During last night my glucose reading was 3.7m/mol for a few hours till i woke up - no sweating and feeling perfectly well and quiet heart. Have to double check with finger prick but they aren't that accurate as well.

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Joe
Thank you, George. Reduces my confusion/understanding a bit
Enjoyed the link - seems to be saying what Drs Longo & Fung et. al. are saying?
During last night my glucose reading was 3.7m/mol for a few hours till i woke up - no sweating and feeling perfectly well and quiet heart. Have to double check with finger prick but they aren't that accurate as well.

If you look at Joseph Kraft MD's 1975 paper (re formatted by Meridian Valley) <[www.hippokrati.fi] What you are worried about is an overshoot on insulin production driving the glucose low. Irish Engineer, Ivor Cummins (a friend), interviewed Kraft in 2015 before he passed in 2017 at age 96. <[thefatemperor.com] In the Kraft world, pattern's II-IV are the issue. In these cases, insulin is delayed, then overshoots, hence dropping the blood sugar materially. If someone isn't fat/keto adapted, then it is a crisis for the body, hence the sympathetic response. Kraft also wrote a book: <[www.amazon.com]

Kraft's contribution was a five hour oral glucose tolerance test with insulin assay. Most don't test insulin.

As an aside, I've been intentionally spiking ny blood sugar for several weeks. I've been adapted for so long, I still have betahydroxybuterate readings in the 0.9-2.4 readings every morning. Or even an hour after eating a pile of cassava flour pancakes that send my glucose through the roof. As to why I'm doing this, it is for another experiment I won't describe now.

"As to hypoglycemia. What I was referring to is more a spike after dinner followed by a steep drop in the middle of the night. If one is not keto adapted, it can be a metabolic crisis for the body. There can be a surge of adrenalin, which will raise your blood sugar. This is reason you can wake up hot and sweaty. If your blood sugar goes low and stays there, you are fine."

George. Can you explain this some more? Or link me to something to understand this? I get this hot spike about three hours after falling asleep frequently if I have a late dinner or drink more than one glass wine in the evening. I'm not diabetic and don't have AFib at night. It's gotten to the stage where I have to eat a small meal early in the evening to avoid this. I'm just wondering if there's a way to avoid this in other ways?

Thanks

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Brian_og
George. Can you explain this some more? Or link me to something to understand this? I get this hot spike about three hours after falling asleep frequently if I have a late dinner or drink more than one glass wine in the evening. I'm not diabetic and don't have AFib at night. It's gotten to the stage where I have to eat a small meal early in the evening to avoid this. I'm just wondering if there's a way to avoid this in other ways?

Brain,

It could be indicative of insulin resistance. I linked Ivor Cummins' interview of Dr. Joseph Kraft above. An explanation of Kraft's findings is here <[thefatemperor.com] Whiile this article talks about night hypoglycemia it in reference to diabetes <[universityhealthnews.com] Kraft would say that the insulin disregulation may forecast future diabetes (T2) if nothing is done to change the pattern.

I recall we had discussions about this issue here years ago. I recall that Jackie was they one who first brought it to my attention. Here is a search on her posts on the hypoglycemia toopi <[www.afibbers.org]

Though it may not cause afib, the reason ic could is the adrenaline response.

A bit of protein and fat before bed may help. Even something link Hans' Pac Tamer <[www.afibbers.org]

Of course the best response is address an abnormal insulin response curve (per Dr. Kraft) with diet/lifestyle change.

Meridian Valley offers a Kraft test that can be ordered by lay people and done at home. <[www.meridianvalleylab.com] It is in essence a "stress test" for the pancreas. You fast overnight, test glucose and insulin, then consume 75g of glucose, then sample glucose and insulin at 30, 60, 120 minutes, then at 3 and 4 hours.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2019 12:01PM by GeorgeN.

Thanks a lot George. Lots to look at there.

I'm quite healthy otherwise, low A1c, good bloods and lipids etc., and physically active, good BMI, so I'd be really surprised if I was heading towards T2D. Some gerd issues though. I'll definitely read all your links.

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Brian_og
I'm quite healthy otherwise, low A1c, good bloods and lipids etc., and physically active, good BMI, so I'd be really surprised if I was heading towards T2D. Some gerd issues though. I'll definitely read all your links.

That was me when I was having those issues.

Fasting bloods can be insensitive, so aren't perfect markers. Same with A1C. The idea is to see how the pancreas and the whole system performs under load, not at idle.

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GeorgeN

I'm quite healthy otherwise, low A1c, good bloods and lipids etc., and physically active, good BMI, so I'd be really surprised if I was heading towards T2D. Some gerd issues though. I'll definitely read all your links.

That was me when I was having those issues.

Fasting bloods can be insensitive, so aren't perfect markers. Same with A1C. The idea is to see how the pancreas and the whole system performs under load, not at idle.

Thanks again. I'll do more research. Unfortunately I'm in Ireland for the time being and can't do the blood test you recommend. How did you solve those issues for yourself? I know you went keto but was that a necessary solution?

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Brian_og
Unfortunately I'm in Ireland for the time being and can't do the blood test you recommend. How did you solve those issues for yourself? I know you went keto but was that a necessary solution?

Catherine Crofts from Aukland, NZ used Kraft's data for her PhD research. The question was what simpler test could get you to the same answer as Kraft's 5 hour assay. She came up with consuming a 75g glucose load after at least a 12 hour fast, then testing insulin exactly 2 hours after consuming the glucose. Her thesis is linked in this here. in If your two hour insulin is <30, you are good. Between 30 and 50, need more testing and over 50 bad. You'd need a cooperative GP to order your insulin test and also it would be wise to talk to a lab to make sure you could get it drawn in at two hours. By the way, Catherine told me that fasting insulin is very pulsitile. Hence can vary a lot over a few minutes.

My first take on diet is to avoid processed carbs and industrial seed oils (and processed foods in general). Eating real food can do a lot without going keto or whatever. I'm sure that how far one needs to go it individual. My friend Ivor Cummins, from Dublin, wrote about that in his book (authored with another friend, Jeff Gerber MD). Ivor is the guy who interviewed Joseph Kraft.

Great info in this thread George.

I dropped all carbs other than veg and berries/watermelon 3 months back. Now 200 lbs rather than 236 I was in Jan. (was 264 in 2008). Target is 180 and I WILL get there AND stay there.

I note your comment about industrial seed oils. I favour organic CP rape seed oil for its omega 3 to 6 ratio and high temp (CPEV olive oil for everything else - never cooked).

Do you have issues with using Organic CP RSO and if so why?

By the way, what’s your take on eggs? Lots of press at the moment about them increasing risk of heart disease. I’ve always that that good quality egged are very finefood (usually have 2 or 3 a week).

Cheers,

Mike F.

So what is the best overall diet for heart health then? I started a Mediterranean diet which is very high fat but seeing on this thread a few people adopting low fat diets? Is there any consensus aside from the general eat whole foods, avoid sugar get enough vegetables etc

Maybe Dr Attia is right when he says one should keep blood glucose @85 +/-15 and a slightly positive nitrogen balance. I assume that eating only non processed 'whole' foods that are not contaminated is a given?