Natural Cold meds cause AFib??

On the Friday, after Thanksgivibg, I felt like a cold was coming on. My sister had told me about a product that you can use to stop a cold from progressing. It was a dissolvable tablet that contained elderberry and a few other "natural" ingredients.

I started it on Friday afternoon and took it religiously every 3 hours (per package directions) until Sunday afternoon. (Total of 15 tablets) I never got a cold (well it took care of 90% of symptoms) I thought it was a miracle product.

Monday night is when my AFIB started. In the ER Iwas asked it I had taken any medication. I told them I had taken a baby aspirin and then remembered the cold medicine. Nurse thought that was interesting and wrote it down.

Latter when I was home, I checked the ingredients. Two of the active ingredients are bryonia and gelsemia.

When I checked Web MD, both were listed as unsafe. In any quantity. Both could cause numerous effects (one of them said nervous energy)

At my follow up visit with the cardiologist, I brought the package to her. She told me that some of these natural products do not go through any FDA rigorous testing and could be damaging. She stopped short of saying it caused my AFIB but said it certainly could have contributed.

This product is sold over the counter at pretty much any drugstore, Amazon, etc.

I will add that for about a month before the episode I had felt like my heart was skipping beats. I attributed it to stress So the med could have nothing to do with it but it sure seems like a coincidence.

Thoughts?

Most likely coincidence.

Your heart "skipping beats" for the month prior to your first recorded AF episodes were most likely PACs (premature atrial contractions) which are almost invariably the prelude to full blown AF. It's a sign that the electrical conduction in your heart's atria is getting away from what's normal. Barring any structural heart disease, that's almost always due to the electrolyte concentrations getting upset at the cellular level. You need potassium and magnesium to "calm down" heart cells. Conversely, sodium and calcium get them "excited". Excited cells contract prematurely.

So, diet is important. Many of us need to go further than that and use supplements, most notably magnesium. There are countless threads on this forum related to magnesium supplementation, as well as just about every other supplement you can imagine. The bottom line is, if you wish to try it, to use the most bio-available form you can get. Magnesium oxide is by far the worst. Magnesium citrate is better, but leads to bowel issues very quickly at higher doses. Magnesium bisglycinate (amino acid chelate) is superior. A common brand is Doctor's Best and you'll find it at any vitamin store. Many folks find they can tolerate higher doses without issue. It's important to ramp up slowly to find your limit. Loose or liquid stool just means you're losing everything and making things worse instead of better.

So, it may be that our bodies are deficient in magnesium and supplementation can help. On the flip side of that coin, it's also important to avoid things that cause our bodies to shed beneficial electrolytes such as magnesium and potassium. Those things would include excessive alcohol consumption, stress, certain diuretics and, yes, even exercise. The list is long. So it's possible that your cold medication was the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back" by affecting some amount of electrolyte shedding from a substrate that was already deficient in them. But I'd be far from thinking it was a root cause.

I asked the cardiologist about magnesium supplement and she said that, while it would not harm me, would not likely make a difference. I still bought some magnesium citrate but haven't used it yet. I'll look for the kind you mentioned.

I checked my test results. Sodium was 137, potassium 39. Both within range but low.

I noted that on the CBC, my RDW and MCH were slightly high. Googling shows that could indicate iron deficient anemia. I remember havinf to take iron supplements as a child. Doc never mentioned any of these numbers.

Oh and calcium was 8.3 - low. Magnesium 2.2, normal.

Thanks for your very informative reply!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2018 11:18AM by katesshadow.

You're over analyzing. Your blood work numbers aren't concerning, though being a woman you should probably try to get more calcium in your diet.

According to rxlist.com:

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Bryonia is LIKELY UNSAFE for anyone to use. At fairly low doses, it can cause many side effects including dizziness, vomiting, convulsions, colic, bloody diarrhea, abortion, nervous excitement, and kidney damage. Larger doses may cause fatal poisoning. Just touching fresh bryonia can cause skin irritation. Eating the berries can cause death.

And...

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Gelsemium is UNSAFE. All parts of the plant are very poisonous. Even small amounts can cause serious toxicity, including death. Symptoms of poisoning include headache, vision problems, difficulty swallowing, dizziness, muscle problems, seizures, breathing problems, slowing of the heart, and others.

Special Precautions & Warnings:

It is UNSAFE for anyone to use gelsemium, but some people have extra reasons not to use it:

Children: Do not give gelsemium to children. It can poison them, even in very small amounts.

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: It's UNSAFE to use gelsemium. It is very poisonous.

Heart disease and weakness: Gelsemium is especially dangerous if you have a heart problem.

Given the above I wouldn't touch the stuff ever again. I recommend throwing it in the trash.

Katesshadow - In addition to Wolfpack's advice, consider having on hand to help keep you from developing colds and even flu, as a very early interventional .....the liposomal form of Vitamin C... produced by LivOn Laboratories. If you do an advance search in the box above upper right, you'll find some writeups about the efficacy. Also at the LivOn Labs website, they have supporting literature as well. [www.livonlabs.com]

This vitamin C in the liposomal delivery form offers a much more concentrated dose of vitamin C which helps prevent the onset if you feel something "coming on." It comes in individual packets which makes it handy for travel.. and in fact, many of us would not travel without it as an "insurance" preventive.

The power of concentrated vitamin C has been shared prolifically by Cardiologist, Thomas E. Levy, MD in several of his books on the topic... ie, Primal Panacea and he includes a comparison to what you'd have to take for regular vitamin C... (which would likely produce some bowel tolerance issues)... where as the Lipo C does not typically affect bowel or stomach.

One packet delivers 1,000 mg of the liposomal C.

The substitution equivalencies (Lipo C equivalent to C as ascorbic acid)
1,000 mg = 3,000 – 4,000 mg powder
2,000 mg = 8,000 – 10,000 mg powder
3,000 mg = 12,000 – 18,000 mg powder…. (page 133 of Primal Panacea)

The downside is that it isn't pleasant tasting... but if you wash it down quickly with water, it's 'doable.' I've used it for a number of years... and it's always helped if I feel a scratchy throat of stuffy nose is brewing. In about 20+ years, I've had one cold and no flu... mostly because of keeping my vitamin D levels optimal ... and then by using various immune boosters if I would start to feel symptomatic. But the addition of Lipo C is very reassuring.
I've never found the LipoC to stimulate arrhythmia.

Additionally, please keep in mind that you should not take supplemental calcium if you have arrhythmia since most people are deficient in intracellular stores of magnesium... (this is not reflected in your typical blood test) and they are also often too high in calcium... as compared to their magnesium level inside the cells. When calcium is added and magnesium is low, it sets the stage for arrhythmia.

Jackie

Yeah, just use the zinc lozenges if you feel a head cold coming on.

As for the blood numbers, it's important to remember that potassium and magnesium exist primarily INSIDE the body's cells. Measuring the serum (blood) levels will certainly indicate a problem if either value is low, but normal serum values don't really provide insight into what's going on inside cells. There are more expensive tests to try to establish that, but it's more economical in my opinion to just supplement for a while and see what, if any, difference it makes for you. As long as your kidneys are healthy you're not going to overdose on electrolytes by oral supplementation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2018 02:14PM by wolfpack.

Thank you All for your thoughtful replies. I certainly appreciate the information. This Afib thing is still new to me and I'm having a hard time adjusting to the idea. I do tend to overanalyze....I want there to be a clear black/white reason for everything. I HATE this but know that there are far more worse situations that people have to deal with. My own sister has early onset dementia and lung cancer. There is no history of dementia in our family and she has never smoked or had a drop.of alcohol. (I help care for her so that stresses me.) Thanks everyone.

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katesshadow
I want there to be a clear black/white reason for everything.

We all do.

As it happens, matters of the heart are more complicated. What subtle irony!

It's almost totally gray!

The problem I have with taking big doses of Vitamin C is the acidity it brings to the esophagus,stomach etc. If I take high doses of Vitamin C or Vitamin B especially B6, my acid indigestion goes out the roof and I have a extremely sensitive bladder that gets irritated easily. I have had one urologist diagnose me with IC (Intertestial Cystitis) in 2014.

I take the flu shot and never have a issue with it. I do take Magnesium and eat Potassium rich foods.

Smackman - Just FYI... with this Liposomal form of Vitamin C... the liposomes (Lipo-Spheric^TM) made from "essential phospholipids" protect the vitamin C throughout the digestive system so you can take the higher doses without stomach or intestinal irritation or reactions. And allows for the higher dosing comparison I listed in my response to katesshadow. Not suggesting you should use this, but just explaining about the delivery form.

Jackie

Why do individuals especially with underlying health issues like AFIB refuse to take the flu shot? Dr. Natale told me years ago to always take the flu vaccine yearly and the pneumonia shot after I turn 65 when Medicare will cover the pneumonia vaccination.

I know the preventative shots are not 100% effective but your odds are much better.

Smackman - probably highly individualized as to the efficacy of the flu shots.

When I worked as a dental hygienist, because of the aerosol contamination (even when wearing a mask), and I always got the flu shot; yet, I typically got the flu.... and also colds. When I stopped practicing due to AF, I also stopped the flu shots. And also, rather surprising, even though my social community exposed me to those who had colds or flu symptoms, I didn't get sick with either.

Often, people show up at the gym who are hacking and sneezing which always makes me worry a bit, but apparently my immune system support protocols directed by my FM MD which include keeping vitamin D (25 OH D) levels at least 70 nanograms/milliliter (ng/mL) are performing 'as advertised.'

Now, if I ever feel symptomatic, that's when I use the LipoC to stop that in its tracks. Since I am typically reactive to chemicals in meds and injections, I don't like to submit to shots unless I absolutely must.

I have low B cells so that's especially concerning for 'seniors' so my FM MD had me consult with an Immunologist who started with one type of pneumonia vaccine and then tested. It didn't take. Tried another that's used on children, that didn't take either.

Jackie

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smackman
Why do individuals especially with underlying health issues like AFIB refuse to take the flu shot?

Because they listen to idiots on the internet?

Possibly.
I've listened to both side of the fence and so far it's inconclusive for me. BTW, there are some well educated and credentialed idiots on the internet including MDs and specialists.
While i'm not against immunization i think it's overdone and without enough care as to the recipients' health/immune status at the time of administration.
Seems to me the ajuvants can pose a problem for some people?

I'm 69 and never had a flu injection. My wife is a little older and she has it every year for at least the last 5 years. While we both got a mild virial infection this winter (flu type symptoms), the first time for me in many years but she gets it every winter, mine lasted for 7 days and hers for 4/5 weeks.
My suspicion is that the universal/indiscriminate doling out of flu vaccine is much better for the vendors business than for many recipients. Then again, i'm probably just another idiot on the internet.

Hey Joe - not an 'idiot' at all. There's a lot of misinformation on the internet but also a huge amount of very accurate and helpful information, as you indicate from very credible, credentialed people. Jackie

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Joe
Possibly.
I've listened to both side of the fence and so far it's inconclusive for me. BTW, there are some well educated and credentialed idiots on the internet including MDs and specialists.
While i'm not against immunization i think it's overdone and without enough care as to the recipients' health/immune status at the time of administration.
Seems to me the ajuvants can pose a problem for some people?

I'm 69 and never had a flu injection. My wife is a little older and she has it every year for at least the last 5 years. While we both got a mild virial infection this winter (flu type symptoms), the first time for me in many years but she gets it every winter, mine lasted for 7 days and hers for 4/5 weeks.
My suspicion is that the universal/indiscriminate doling out of flu vaccine is much better for the vendors business than for many recipients. Then again, i'm probably just another idiot on the internet.

What about kids that go to school where campuses are shutdown yearly due to the Flu? I think it’s absurd to not take the Flu shot and then risk exposing individuals to this deadly virus. I do understand a weird strain of flu can compromise someone who has taken the flu shot but the recipient who took the flu shot generally has a easier time with it.
I just wonder if a vaccine became available eradicate the common cold, would individuals still refuse it? My daughter is a registered OT and works in health care environment. She is required to take the flu shot each year.

Very few live on a island of our own. Science for the most part has been good to us. Look at HIV. Religious Conspirators said this was mankind’s Armageddon. It was bad and is still bad but individuals in the modern world who catch this horrific.virus that can destroy the immune system now have hope to live a full life.. It’can now be controlled and is not a automatic death sentence thanks to scientists and caring physicians.

I have seen elderly people die from the flu. Just be smart.

Gee, only 80,000 died in the US last winter from flu, why get a shot? From a CNN story.

We could discuss it till the cows come home. As i said, not against immunization but not for compulsory immunization. There is a lot of bulltish out there for against and pro.
Oh, if you are immunized and contracted the virus you are not shedding it???
BTW, i took the whooping cough shot two years ago mainly because my daughter expected her first and she kind of thought it's a good idea. I did whooping cough as a child - no big deal. We spread it among our friends. While we were barking like dogs, it didn't stop us running around outside in the snow.
They argument that something is good in some instances, it must be in and for every instance - and the more of it the better

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Ken
Gee, only 80,000 died in the US last winter from flu, why get a shot? From a CNN story.

Yep.

I’m still waiting for the motor vehicle accident vaccine and the gunshot wound vaccine. I’d take them all if I could!

Please don’t ignore obvious threats to your health, folks.

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wolfpack

Gee, only 80,000 died in the US last winter from flu, why get a shot? From a CNN story.

Yep.

I’m still waiting for the motor vehicle accident vaccine and the gunshot wound vaccine. I’d take them all if I could!

Please don’t ignore obvious threats to your health, folks.

👍👍👍

Meanwhile, measles and even polio are making resurgences thanks to the anti-vaxxers. They have blood on their hands and a body count numbering in the thousands.

Those would be the idiots on the internet I referred to earlier.

Just as well you are fully vaccinated Carey.
I know the discussion on herd immunity which used to be in the low 90 and has steadily been creeping up.
The argument that vaccinated people are at risk from un-vaccinated people for some spurious technical reason - i'm not buying at this stage. anyway.
In Australia it's going much the same way with compulsory vaccination as in the land of the 'Free' . Don't know about there but here it is virtually impossible to proof fault when someone is vaccine damaged. I know i child, now an adult, who definitely suffered damage and is unable to function fully. The medicos invariably gang up and put it down to co-incident.
My idea would be to vaccinate for certain viruses at an age when the immune system is at least somewhat matured and the shots are spaced out and when the child is totally health e.g. no sniffles etc.
Giving them 50;60 shots by the time they are 15 or so is just ridiculous.
Hope i'm wrong though because my grand children are getting the full whak

Aside from allergic reactions, which are extremely rare and don't leave lasting harm if prompt medical care is provided, vaccine injury is a virtually non-existent thing. There were real cases of vaccine injury from the live polio vaccine, but that was discontinued 20 years ago. Vaccine injury is mainly a bogeyman invented by anti-vaxxers to sell their books.

And yeah, herd immunity is a real thing. The risk that unvaccinated people pose to everyone else isn't spurious or theoretical.

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Joe
Just as well you are fully vaccinated Carey.
I know the discussion on herd immunity which used to be in the low 90 and has steadily been creeping up.
The argument that vaccinated people are at risk from un-vaccinated people for some spurious technical reason - i'm not buying at this stage. anyway.
In Australia it's going much the same way with compulsory vaccination as in the land of the 'Free' . Don't know about there but here it is virtually impossible to proof fault when someone is vaccine damaged. I know i child, now an adult, who definitely suffered damage and is unable to function fully. The medicos invariably gang up and put it down to co-incident.
My idea would be to vaccinate for certain viruses at an age when the immune system is at least somewhat matured and the shots are spaced out and when the child is totally health e.g. no sniffles etc.
Giving them 50;60 shots by the time they are 15 or so is just ridiculous.
Hope i'm wrong though because my grand children are getting the full whak

The Land of the Free, USA is by far the greatest Country in the World. Nothing compares and I am a biased American Citizen who deeply loves his Country. I will always take the Vaccinations given to me. I have other issues besides my now NSR Heart and age is not on my side.
My Daddy who passed away in August told me as a young Man to Always be smarter than what you are working on.
Merry Christmas to all and Happy Holidays from North Louisiana.

Here is some 2018 data from WebMD and the CDC on the impact (death) of not giving the flu vaccine to children:

Feb. 15, 2018 -- As in the past, most children who have died of the flu so far this season had not been vaccinated, according to the CDC.

In previous flu seasons, as many as 85% of children who died after getting the flu had not been vaccinated.

CDC, by definition, is a private corporation working on behalf of its stakeholders, which include key players in the pharmaceutical and vaccine industries. Hmm.

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Elizabeth
CDC, by definition, is a private corporation working on behalf of its stakeholders, which include key players in the pharmaceutical and vaccine industries. Hmm.

Conspiracy Rhetoric does not change the facts that taking the Flu Shot prevents many deaths every year.
If you believe otherwise, prove it. Also, As I have stated before, Most individuals do not have the finances to visit a Holistic guru. It can cost big money to go this route. My wife ask about getting her Vitamin D levels checked; approximately $1500dollars for the visit and test. Regular insurance will not cover this type of check from a Physician much less someone who specializes in Holistic style of treating individuals with issues.
Money is a issue to many.

My Holistic doctor charges me 125.00/visit, all blood draws are paid for by my Ins. I go twice a year. My reg. M.D. charges my Ins. which I usually have co- pay also, the amount the doc charges my Ins. is a lot more than what I pay out of pocket to my Holistic doc. This is a AF board so I won't comment anymore on the flu vaccine.

Liz

According to Wikipedia this is what the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC, does:

It is the leading national public health institute of the United States. The CDC is a United States federal agency under the Department of Health and Human Services and is headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia.

However, Elizabeth is correct that there is also a CDC Foundation (about 1/2 way down the Wikipedia page, but is separate from the CDC):

The CDC Foundation operates independently from CDC as a private, nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization incorporated in the State of Georgia. The creation of the Foundation was authorized by section 399F of the Public Health Service Act to support the mission of CDC in partnership with the private sector, including organizations, foundations, businesses, educational groups, and individuals.

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Elizabeth
CDC, by definition, is a private corporation working on behalf of its stakeholders, which include key players in the pharmaceutical and vaccine industries. Hmm.

False.

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The CDC is a United States federal agency under the Department of Health and Human Services and is headquartered in Atlanta, Georgia.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centers_for_Disease_Control_and_Prevention

Perhaps you're thinking of the CDC Foundation, which is a non-profit foundation created by Congress in 1992. Your implication that it's somehow in cahoots with pharmaceutical companies is unfounded. You might want to actually read about the foundation, what it does, and how it's funded. You can start here. In particular, you should pay attention to this statement:

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Because CDC is a federal agency, all scientific findings resulting from CDC research are available to the public and open to the broader scientific community for review.

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Elizabeth
My Holistic doctor charges me 125.00/visit, all blood draws are paid for by my Ins. I go twice a year. My reg. M.D. charges my Ins. which I usually have co- pay also, the amount the doc charges my Ins. is a lot more than what I pay out of pocket to my Holistic doc. This is a AF board so I won't comment anymore on the flu vaccine.

Liz

Medicare does not;

What Medicare doesn’t cover
Original Medicare, Part A and Part B, doesn’t generally cover the following services and supplies. This may not be a complete list.

Alternative medicine: In general, Medicare doesn’t cover most alternative or holistic treatments, including acupuncture and chiropractor services (except when medically necessary to correct a misalignment of the spine).

AFIB and the Flu do not like each other. It’s all about choices......... and what ones interpretation is. I know from persistent AFIB and 2 Ablations that AFIB is a Beast mentally and physically.

Smackman:

My Ins. (which is Medicare) covers blood draws, I said I pay my Holistic doc. out of pocket. It appears that many, even with Dr. Natalie, have more than one ablation, yes AF is not pleasant.

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Elizabeth
Smackman:

My Ins. (which is Medicare) covers blood draws, I said I pay my Holistic doc. out of pocket. It appears that many, even with Dr. Natalie, have more than one ablation, yes AF is not pleasant.

I was “prewarned” that I could need a touch up Ablation after my 1st one. I was in Persistent AFIB and my LAA had to be isolated on the 2nd Ablation.

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smackman
I was “prewarned” that I could need a touch up Ablation after my 1st one. I was in Persistent AFIB and my LAA had to be isolated on the 2nd Ablation.

That's often true of persistent. But it's also why advanced EPs like Natale are getting 75%+ success rates with persistent when historically most EPs have barely gotten 40%.

And it remains true that 65-7% of ablations for paroxysmal afib will require only a single procedure, and that's from average EPs. Top EPs do much better.

The EP told me the other day that he only does cryo for first time procedures because it's less risky, quicker and fixes 70 to 80% first time.
He is fibbing, i trust you guys.
I suggested that he uses both, cryo & RF, when he finds other areas in the atria giving stray signals. He said that he wouldn't see any anyway unless the heart is in AF and if a patient has AF he cardioverts prior to procedure anyway

Not sure what to think of him? He told me that the Bordeaux team uses old techniques and he doesn't agree with them, new techniques are superior.
Didn't want to argue with him by bringing up Dr Natale etc.

My local Cardiologist despised the fact that I would travel 8 hours out of state to have my Ablation in Austin, Texas instead of a “well known” EP 1 1/2 hours away in Shreveport, Louisiana. It was a no Brainer for me especially after talking with Shannon and how my situation was already a difficult Ablation because I was in Persistent AFIB. I have never regretted my choice but I am looking for another local Cardiologist for checkups.

I'd do it as well but for an Australian like me it is financially prohibitive.