First Post: Intro and ?'s June 26, 2017 08:17AM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 26, 2017 12:04PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 26, 2017 01:32PM |
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wolfpack
The Toprol is a beta blocker, which is a rate control drug. It won't really work to correct the rhythm. It just slows the ventricular response to the fibrillating atria. I wouldn't take too much as it could cause a dangerously low heart rate once you do convert to normal rhythm.
Yes, magnesium supplementation is a good idea. Worst thing that happens is loose stools.
Bodybuilding may actually play a role if AF genesis. Particularly upper body training, like bench press, puts a lot of strain on the heart as it works to pump against constricted chest muscles. It is one reason some doctors advise against it, particularly after an ablation.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 26, 2017 04:42PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 27, 2017 03:45AM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 27, 2017 08:57AM |
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The Anti-Fib
How cold was the water in the Pool? Or was it warm? Did jumping in the Pool immediately covert you, or did you just happen to notice that you were in NSR sometime later after jumping in?
Why does your Doc want you on Toprol when in NSR? Do you have high BP? You may just need a Beta-Blocker on hand to control your rate if you have another episode. What was your HR during your last episode, when you took 100-150 mg of the Toprol?
As far as being prepared for a next episode, the first step is to control your AF HR. Then if you can find a way naturally to convert back into NSR within 48 hours you may not need a Drug. If you want to try an Rx, Flecainide has worked for others, but I suggest doing research on that Drug before using it, because of the potential for serious side effects.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 27, 2017 03:17PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 27, 2017 09:01PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 28, 2017 10:41AM |
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Oldticker
You should start talking to an electrophysiologist. about an ablation. I was the same as you with episodes coming once a year. It's only going to get worse and medicine and supplements only go so far. You don't want to be taking medications at your age. I had an ablation and it was the best decision I made. A young and fit person like yourself, you should recover in no time. I was back in the gym doing moderate exercise 4 weeks after my ablation. I haven't had a single episode since my ablation.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 28, 2017 10:43AM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 28, 2017 03:25PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 28, 2017 03:34PM |
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elo76
Mag Glycinate, retire from bodybuilding and limit or eliminate the alcohol and stay away from MSG and you might not need the meds
I can do everything but stop bodybuilding. I've never had it trigger an episode but I've had it convert me back so why would I stop it?
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Andrea Natale
Tony (not his real name) is a very fit 64 year old man who has a long history of exercise both endurance and particularly with lifting weights.
Dr Natale warned him strongly to never again lift more than 50 to 75 pounds maximum overhead or with bench presses. He can do lighter reps as much as he wants but the excessive weights and particularly at 100 pounds and over is very bad the heart long term.
Dr Natale told us both there in Tony's hospital room the day after the procedure when he was signing the orders to discharge Tony, that every single owner and long time weight lifter/body builders of several large free weight gym franchises all along the coast of California and a good number of them elsewhere across the country had, so far, required either one or more heart valve replacements, and all of them with marked dilated left atriums and almost all with difficult AFIB as a result.
Joe Weider one of the famous fathers of body building died after multiple valve replacements, Arnold Schwartzenegger has had, I believe he said, two valve jobs as well and he rattled off a list of other well known figures in this sport that have severe cardiac disease, and the vast majority with difficult to treat AFIB as well, as a result of greatly overdoing what, in more moderation, is only a good thing.
Dr Natale said when lifting heavy weights, in particular overhead or above the chest in bench press mode, the ventricles are squeezed tight as if a band were wrapped around them when grunting and pressing hard with heavy weights, but the upper atriums then balloon out, as in taking a regular balloon and wrapping your hands around the lower half and then squeezing it will cause the upper part of the balloon to literally 'balloon' out and stretch in the process. The prolonged result of which are greatly dilated left and right atriums often leading to dysfunctional valves and a strong tendency toward persistent AFIB.
You also need to moderate excessive endurance training as well. We have gobs of evidence now that moderate amounts are healthy, fanatical amounts of long term endurance training are highly risky and dangerous when it comes to AFIB and even arteriosclerotic CVD.
In short, as a persistent afibber (and really smart advice for everyone), you must tailor for yourself a more modest exercise program to balance keeping physically fit with not exacerbating your underlying cardiac condition manifesting as persistent AFIB.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 28, 2017 09:18PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 29, 2017 02:54AM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 29, 2017 09:16AM |
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wolfpack
All of this makes me wonder if I should stop my toning routine of 3 sets of 10 bench presses at 160lb twice a week. I didn't think that was an awful lot.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 29, 2017 09:54AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 10 |
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The Anti-Fib
If don't have one already, I recommend getting a BP monitor so you can measure yourself. My BP is fine at home (120/80), but after stressing through traffic, with my car over-heating, I get to the Dr. Office, and I have high BP, like 150/90. You asked about being on the Meds, are you sure your BP was really that high to begin with? Perhaps a trial reducing your Meds is warranted, but be carefull you need to taper off of the BP meds slowly, or you can get a rebound effect, and your BP may rise.
If you continue with the Beta-Blockers, You might try a Cardio-selective Beta-Blocker like Bystolic or Atenolol. They target the Heart, and don't effect the rest of the body as much as the Toprol. Better for Athletes, as if causes less sedation and Muscle relaxation.
I wouldn't quit Body Building or exercising, rather modify your routine to avoid exercises that stretch the Atria. Maybe some research here is prudent. You certainly don't need to do heavy presses overhead to be a weight lifter. I just do body weight with optimal posture on my overhead presses. This maintains those muscle fibers involved, and then I lift heavier on the other stuff. More Isolation vs. compound exercises, will place less acute stress on the Atria.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 29, 2017 10:49AM |
Admin Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 2,779 |
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wolfpack
All of this makes me wonder if I should stop my toning routine of 3 sets of 10 bench presses at 160lb twice a week. I didn't think that was an awful lot.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 29, 2017 03:41PM |
Registered: 11 years ago Posts: 4,228 |
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Prof Philippe Coumel MD
“It is known that in well-trained people suffering from vagal AF, the first step of therapyshould be deconditioning by discontinuing high-level training. It may be sufficient to bring about an improvement in the patient and it is often a necessary adjuvant to facilitate pharmacological therapy.”
“Not only are beta-blockers ineffective, [for vagal afibbers] but they usually make patients worse and inhibit the efficacy of antiarrhythmics.”
“Excessive training is harmful when it exaggeratedly modifies the ANS balance beyond the sympathetic and parasympathetic physiological values. It is a major mistake to think that the man in the street must be as trained and fit as the professional sportsman. Any common sense driver knows that if he wants to make his car last, he must avoid handling it as a rally or Formula One driver"
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Philippe Coumel
Dr. Philippe Coumel of the Lariboisiere Hospital in Paris discovered in 1982 that a dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system plays a major role in LAF. He found that there are two varieties of paroxysmal LAF, an adrenergic form and a vagal form[4,5].
Vagal type LAF is associated with an overactive parasympathetic (vagal) nervous system and is often observed in athletes and people with digestive problems. It is most common among men aged 40 to 50 years. The commonest feature is that of weekly episodes, lasting from a few minutes to several hours. The essential feature is the occurrence of episodes at night, often ending in the morning. Rest, digestive periods (particularly after dinner), and alcohol consumption are also predisposing factors. Exercise or emotional stress does not trigger the arrhythmia. On the contrary, on feeling the sensation of an oncoming episode (repeated atrial premature beats), many patients have observed that they can prevent an episode by exercising, but the relaxation period that follows an exercise effort or an emotional stress frequently coincides with the onset of vagal LAF.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 29, 2017 09:40PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 08:13AM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 09:11AM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 09:35AM |
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safib
To me, common sense suggests routine exercise to failure is a poor choice, and probably more so with heart disease, hypertension, etc..
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 12:50PM |
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elo76
Should I start with talking with my current doc and bringing up some of the points you guys have discussed or look for an EP? I'm betting he doesn't even know that my afib is vagal.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 01:54PM |
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wolfpack
Should I start with talking with my current doc and bringing up some of the points you guys have discussed or look for an EP? I'm betting he doesn't even know that my afib is vagal.
Most of us went the cardiologist route with an EP referral. EPs are more specialized and aren't really a doctor you can check in with routinely.
Some cardios don't understand/believe in adrenergic vs vagal. They'll treat it the same. If that's the case, get a better cardio.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 03:43PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 11:15PM |
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elo76
Thanks for the replies. So I will try to have a conversation with my cardio on my next appt. If that fails...I got a name of an EP from a guy at work that had an ablation.
I just don't understand how a doc could have me on something that is possibly aggravating my condition.
Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s June 30, 2017 11:33PM |
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Re: First Post: Intro and ?'s July 01, 2017 02:19AM |
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wolfpack
Thanks for the replies. So I will try to have a conversation with my cardio on my next appt. If that fails...I got a name of an EP from a guy at work that had an ablation.
I just don't understand how a doc could have me on something that is possibly aggravating my condition.
As for EPs, seek out the best possible provider that you can find given your situation. Even if that means travel.
Remember that cardiologists are essentially "plumbers". They fix blocked coronary arteries that lead to heart attacks. You don't have that (as best as I can tell via an Internet forum). An EP is an "electrician". They fix wires. Wiring problems are always less obvious and trickier to fix than plumbing problems. Such is life.