Jackie help me and others

I have read the confusing information on the various types of wobenzyme and vitalzyme so given I am on low dose Eliquis what is the least risk option ?

Others I am sure would be interested in some general advice.

We haven't time for long term experiments !

Thanks

Alex

Alex... This subject deserves a note of caution. I feel totally comfortable with the enzyme approach but as you say, there is conflicting and limited reporting about using the two together. Here's what I've done thus far...just for information. I'm not suggesting that you do the same.

When I began using the full dose Eliquis ( 5 mg twice daily), I stopped my daily doses of nattokinase based on what I found as precautions. As it was, I had nose bleeds when I began Eliquis.. probably from my low platelet count.

Now that my Eliquis dose has been lowered to half dose twice a day, a couple months ago I began using a small combination dose of nattokinase/serrapaptase... which contain 4,516 Fibrinolytic units "Nattozimes" and 20,000 U of "Serrazimes." I have not experienced any increased bleeding or slow clotting times from normal (minor) cuts or abrasions and no nosebleeds.

However, because my fibrinogen level (December labs) has increased after stopping the NK almost 2 years ago, I'm wanting to regain the benefits of nattokinase and intend to continue with low doses. While it's in the normal lab range, it's still elevated too much for my mental comfort level.

I haven't found substantial information that indicates the combination of Eliquis and fibrinolytic/proteolytic enzymes are safe and compatible. There are warnings not to use the enzymes with warfarin/coumadin which works on the vitamin K pathway, but that's not the same clotting mechanism as the NOACs such as Eliquis,Xalerto, Pradaxa.

While the Eliquis is a safeguard for adverse clotting during AF and helping to insure free flowing blood in the now isolated LAA, having my fibrinogen elevated is not something I'm happy about overall so I intend to do more investigating and 'tinkering' with combination dosing. I'd rather have the lowered fibrinogen as a result of the enzymes than thinner blood as a result of the Eliquis.

Now, if I read this study correctly, the Eliquis apparently has no effect on fibrinogen... so I may consider adding more of the Natto-serrazyme. [www.thrombosisresearch.com]
[¶Effect is method-dependent, most fibrinogen assays show no effect.]



This for Wobenzym

Wobenzym®N should not be taken by individuals suffering from bleeding disorders or liver damage
Wobenzym®N should not be taken by individuals who are on anticoagulant drugs (such as Warfarin)
Wobenzym®N should not be taken in combination with Aspirin

VitalzymX

Anyone taking blood thinning medications, such as Warfarin or Coumadin, should do so with the consent of their physician.
DO NOT take this product without the consent of your physician if you currently have ulcers, are a hemophiliac, or are pregnant or nursing.
Those taking prescription medications should consult with a health care professional or pharmacist to be sure it is alright for them to include VitalzymX in their regimen.
VitalzymX should be discontinued two weeks prior to having surgery.


Not sure I helped you much, Alex. My main suggestion is to continue researching and if you do decide to use one of the fibrinolytic/proteolytic enzyme products, start at very low doses and observe for at least 30 days before increasing.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie,

It was a help!

Alex

Sorry, I didn't mean to post here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2016 01:54AM by Marsh.

Hi Jackie,

Any thoughts on whether Wobenzym might inhibit the (desired) ablation scar formation, if taken during the 3 month period after one has an ablation?

Thanks,
-Ted

Ted - After my 2003 ablation, I asked Dr. Natale if there would be interference with the ablation scar and Nattokinase and he said, "no." So I resumed using NK three times a day (started in 2002) and have continued that until 2014 when Eliquis was prescribed.

Lucky for me, too, because after ablation #1, at 103 days post procedure, I had AF that needed ECV. By then, I had stopped warfarin. Either the prolonged AF event which was converted at hour 39, or the ECV 'jolt' itself caused a clot in the LAA... which was noted on a CT scan of my heart a week later. I didn't learn of the clot until nearly 2 months later... when I received the CT report and saw the notation... but no one had told me about it. So, Dr. Natale, his EP nurse Michelle and I concluded that resuming the NK had done me a big favor and managed the clot. And I'm obviously still here to tell about it after all these years. So, I'm a big fan of NK.

NK is a fibrinolytic enzyme. While NK and Wobenzym target inflammation as well... the Wobenzym product contains:

Bromelain 45mg
Chymotrypsin 1 mg
Pancreatin 100 mg
Papain 60 mg
Rutin 50mg
Trypsin 24mg

which function this way:

Bromelain is a term used for a collection of enzymes isolated from pineapple. While it’s rated by NMCD as “possibly effective” for osteoarthritis, the data are contradictory with some studies suggesting it has no effect on osteoarthritis. It has not been well demonstrated that bromelain reaches any clincially meaningful concentration in the blood. These are large protein molecules and it’s not clear how effectively they are absorbed – doses of 3000mg/day seem to result in tiny, albeit measurable, blood levels. Blood plasma components may inactivate any bromelain that is absorbed, though a half-life has been described [PDF]. On balance, the data are not impressive.

Chymotrypsin is a protein-digesting enzyme that is synthesized and secreted by the pancreas. I could locate no published efficacy of supplemental single ingredient chymotrypsin for any condition. It’s not clear what a supplemental dose of a few milligrams would have. I couldn’t locate any information that characterizes its ADME.

Pancreatin is a mix of digestive enzymes including lipase, protease, and amylase, is used as prescription drug to treat pancreatic insufficiency, in conditions like cystic fibrosis. High doses have been linked to increases in blood/urine uric acid levels. There is no well-established use of oral pancreatin for anything other than pancreatic inefficiency. Again, little information exists to describe the ADME.

Papain is a papaya-derived combination of enzymes. I could find a single study (in German) which compared oral supplements favourably to acyclovir for herpes zoster pain. Given the limited info in the abstract, it’s not possible to evaluate the data more fully. Little data exists to characterize the ADME.

Rutin is a flavenoid rated as “possibly effective” for osteoarthritis on the basis of a single double-blind trial of an enzyme product (bromelain, trypsin, and rutin) versus diclofenac. Rutin does not seem to be absorbed intact, through it appears to elevate plasma levels of quercetin, and seems to have an effect on the absorption of other drugs. Again, little information exists to understand the pharmacokinetics.

Trypsin is another enzyme produced in the pancreas for digestion of proteins. Beyond the trial with rutin, I could locate no published trials evaluating efficacy for any other condition. Limited information exists to describe the ADME.

Source: [sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.com]

If you get into the literature by Dr. Wong... disregarding his background.... he reports on his successes of ridding people of scar tissue formations or surgical adhesions, with his systemic enzymes that improved on Vitalzym which contains:

Serrapeptase - digests dead tissue (fibrin), blood clots and cysts. Best of all, it blocks the release of pain-inducing amines from inflamed tissues. Vitalzym is used throughout Europe and Asia as an alternative to salicylates, ibuprofen and other NSAIDs.

Hope this helps... I wanted to respond, but didn't have a lot of time to pull something together.

Jackie



Adding a PS here... I should never do this in a hurry... and forgot to mention that for helping keep blood thin by natural means, many of the functional medicine practitioners like Boulouke (aka Lumbrokinase) for this... (earthworm-derived enzyme) - mine does. Check out this pdf file by Garry Gordon, MD...who is a strong supporter of Boulouke. scroll down to the 4th entry from this Google search. [www.google.com]

Boulouke is produced by Canada RNA... read more here:
[canadarna.com]
[www.researchednutritionals.com]

Sorry for the disorganization.

Jackie






..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2016 05:30PM by Jackie.

Thanks Jackie!

Hi Jackie,
A question. While Flec has so far for the past few years for the most part kept my afib from happening, because I am turning 70 and mt chad score is telling my Dr to put
me on a thinner, Before I went on Flec I was on warafin which I had no trouble with. Dr though prefers Eliquis. Any reason I should not just go on what I was fine with before?
Have not been on forum too much this year so far. Hope you are doing fine after your recent fix up.....Joe

Hi Joe - I understand about the doctor's need to put you on a blood thinner because of your age since it's considered the standard of care for medico/legal liability.

These new anticoag meds are much more convenient than warfarin/coumadin. No need to be testing INRs and watching out for too much vitamin K veggies, etc. If you were fine previously on warfarin and feel more comfortable with that it would seem reasonable to continue as it has to be far less costly than the new versions. However, that doesn't address the problem with warfarin contributing to bone density issues and risk of fracture in old age with long-term use or the risk of arterial and other soft tissue calcifications that can happen as well with warfarin. That makes the new drugs much more attractive, especially if you can use a lower dose than an active afibber might be prescribed.

Have you had a recent ECG so you know your ejection fraction? Any other significant health issues?

I've sent you a PM with a couple more comments.

Be well,
Jackie