Question about Magnesium Citrate

I started off only taking Chelated magnesium months ago as far as pill form; 200 mg 2 x a day then at night I would drink Natural calm at bedtime approx300 mg of it.

I bought the Now form of Magnesium citrate in 200mg pill form. I now take 200 mg of chelated Magnesium a day and 600 mg of the NOW Magnesium Citrate. This is generally bowel tolerance unless I binge on a lot of red meat like at my wife's company picnic last Sat.

Is Magnesium Citrate in this pill formula working as well for me as the Chelated Magnesium?(Bluebonnet brand).

If not please explain why. The chelated Magnesium is much more expensive as is the powdered Natural calm compared to the NOW 200 mg pill of Magnesium Citrate. This form of Magnesium Citrate gets great reviews for use to elevate low magnesium levels in the body.

Thanks

5 mg Valium a day as needed.
20 mg Prozac daily
15 mg Prevacid a day
60 cc shot of Testosterone Cypionate every 10 days. Testosterone is low due to schedule two narcotics.
.5 mg Arimidex 2x a week to keep Estrogen levels in check. T shots can cause rise in Estrogen.

100 mg Metoprolol ER 1x a day
25 mg HydroDiuril fluid pill 1x a day every 2 days.
Neurontin 900mg a day (for Neuropathic pain IC/CPPS)
800 mg of Magnesium daily . Different types
81 mg aspirin 1X a day. Heart Doctor order due to stent installed in Jan. 2012.
2.5 mg Eliquis 2X a day

Miralax 1x a day for constipation issues. I have tried so many different methods for Constipation since 2008. Fiber is in my diet but to much Fiber really Constipates me.




25 mg/hcr Fentanyl.patch changed every 2 days

1st ablation done Feb. 27, 2014 for Long term persistent AFIB Dr. Natale
2nd Ablation done June 16,2016 Dr. Natale LAA isolated

Smackman - Good timing – I’m midway through a reminder post on the importance of magnesium and relevant recent findings about deficiencies. I may have it posted by next week and the content is worth knowing.

I'm glad you are mindful of the importance of continually taking in magnesium... even post-ablation....or perhaps I should say, especially, post-ablation. I trust you are doing well?

The only way to know for sure if you are benefiting from whatever form and dosage of a magnesium supplement you take is to have the Exatest which not only gives the Magnesium value but the other important electrolytes and their ratios to competing minerals….ie, calcium overpowers magnesium; just as sodium does with potassium. Serum magnesium values (blood draws) are not reflective of what’s inside the cell where mineral/electrolytes functions. Absent a test such as Exatest, there is no way to know for sure other than the variety of symptoms that accompany magnesium deficiency.

That said, since you are not experiencing bowel tolerance issues with the citrate form, you may be hanging on to more of the magnesium than most people since typically, that form is used as a laxative since Mg citrate doesn’t stay around long in the body, but it is fairly well absorbed according to Dr. Aileen Burford-Mason of Canada who speaks about her clinical experiences using magnesium treatments for various ailments. She notes that
A magnesium chelate is absorbed 87%
Magnesium carbonate is 44%
Magnesium citrate 25%
Magnesium sulfate 29%
Magnesium oxide 16%
Because of her hands-on, clinical experience with various forms, she chooses not to use magnesium citrate in her therapy. She says: the amino acid chelate is the smallest and is taken through the gut cells very easily. The other ones, not as easily, and they can become dissociated in the gut as well. We are so primed to absorb protein, we may be more selective about various minerals.

If you haven’t read the Magnesium Absorption and Assimilation report, go there and read about the absorption/assimilation issues [www.afibbers.org] The focus of this report was to highlight the fact that just because we take a nutrient, isn’t an automatic guarantee that it actually reaches the cell’s interior and functions there. Many interferences can be obstacles for reaching that goal.

Keep in mind that you take a lot of medications which readily depletes magnesium so you’re a person who will continually need to do magnesium supplementation heroics just to ‘break even’ in the optimizing challenge.

Refer also to this post where we discussed your magnesium intake: [www.afibbers.org]

Best to you,

Jackie

I am doing well after the Ablation. NSR,resting heart rate around 60 bpm. I did take 40 days of Cipro which ended Aug. 25. It did cause some issues with my "gut" and minor issues with Plantar fasciitis and groin pain; Both are better but still there...... My infection was cleared in the Prostrate which was a good thing. I want take Cipro again unless it is just a vital necessity.

I have been on a Probiotic since Aug. 1 which has tremendously helped my gut. Instead of getting diarrhea on Cipro, It constipated me which I struggle with anyway due to my Medications.

I guess I need to increase my Chelated Magnesium back up to 200 mg a day 2x a day and take the Magnesium Citrate to bowel tolerance?

My bowel Tolerance is hard to control because of diet meaning I do not do well on weekends. I try and stay away from red meat but sometimes I need a good Hamburger. LOL BUT I pay the price with constipation especially if it is Hamburger with cheese and starchy french fries.


I have no idea where I could get a Exatest where I live. My zip code is 71241. I live in a very rural area with Monroe, Louisiana being the closest big town 35 miles away and Shreveport, LA which is 100 miles away but I do go to Plano/Frisco Texas area frequently which is a suburb of Dallas. I am headed there next tuesday

I have 3 grandchildren and the one I am going to visit is 3 months pregnant and her other baby just turned 1. She is 31 and did not get married until she was 28. My other daughter is 33 and has 2 children age 7 and 5.

Hi Smack,

Despite the huge differences in reported absorption of various mag forms, I don't see much difference. Though I've not used it in a while, I have successfully used mag citrate in the past. I also use di-mag malate (which is made by Albion and is a chelate), mag chloride, mag bicarb concentrate (Waller Water concentrate) and mag glycinate (a chelate, but made by KAL not Albion). I take large quantities of mag, 3-5g/day. Right now it is about 5g/day from all combined.

Sometimes when traveling I have to make it simple and not take any of the liquid forms (I make up my own bicarb and chloride solutions). I can convert to only chelates (pills & powder) and there is basically a 1:1 ratio of amounts even though they are supposed to be more bioavailable.

That being said, bowel tolerance does vary for me. It seems to be most correlated with stress (more stress=higher tolerance). A year ago I went on a two week paddle raft trip in the Grand Canyon. No outside contact during that time. Even though it was exciting going through rapids, my stress obviously dropped as did my bowel tolerance during the trip. The higher requirement returned soon after return to contact with civilization.

In theory, bowels are controlled by gut bugs, so you may want to up the probiotics (and perhaps look into prebiotic foods) to help. There is nothing wrong with increasing your mag intake to help, too.

Cheers,

George

Thanks George. Thanks to all. yesterday I took 400 mg of Chelated and 400 mg of Magnesium Citrate and I had a good bowel movement this morning.

George, Do you think your body is become"tolerant" of magnesium requiring more to have a bowel movement since you take so much? Just want your thoughts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2014 10:19AM by Hans Larsen.

Smack,

"Do you think your body is become"tolerant" of magnesium requiring more to have a bowel movement since you take so much?"

I don't know but I assume that I absorb these huge amounts into my blood, but most of that is excreted in my urine. When I started supplementing, 10 years ago, I consumed around 1.2 g mag/day. I did this for years, and did not push bowel tolerance. Around 5 years ago I switched to a very low carb diet. Insulin signals the kidneys to conserve sodium. When insulin levels drop, as can happen when you dramatically reduce carb consumption, this signals the kidneys to dump sodium. This state can also cause the kidneys to dump potassium to keep balance. These electrolyte shifts can cause problems for afibbers. They did cause one afib episode for me. I did my normal PIP flec to convert. This worked, but I notice that my heart rate remained high (125) even though regular (may have been flutter). I consumed a gram or two of mag either as powder or liquid (don't remember). I had a heart rate monitor on. I then watched as my heart rate gradually dropped from 125 to 80 in about 10 minutes. This convinced me to push bowel tolerance hard on the mag. I've done so ever since. After that one episode, eating a very low carb diet did not cause anymore issues.

More recently, I found out I have a single copy of the ApoE4 gene. This does have implications of increased probability of heart and Alzheimer's disease. ApoE4's have serum fat transport and clearance issues. I've been consuming various dietary inputs - from fasting for 36 hours, intermittent fasting (eating 1x/day), eating very low carb and intentional carb spike meals. I then test, most frequently with a home test kit that will test triglycerides, total cholesterol and HDL cholesterol (LDL can be calculated from these and is usually calculated even at a lab, unless you are doing advance lipid testing). I also pulled fairly frequent NMR LDL-P advanced lipid particle count tests. My point here is that going from A-Z on diet caused large electrolyte shifts and did result in an afib episode - the first in 15 months. The best practice when very low carb is to supplement with a few grams a day of sodium, in addition to the mag and potassium. I am now doing this as I continue my experimentation. My body reacts unusually in that even fasting will spike triglycerides and LDL (and LDL-P for that matter) to a certain extent. Testing after a vegan carb night consistently shows trigs off scale low (<50) and moderately high HDLs (60's or 70's). I know that carb nights are a bad plan for me all the time, but I've been unable to replicate these results with any other input or lack thereof (fasting).

So I have no real idea why my body does not want to hold onto mag (though Shannon is in the same boat). Early on in my playing with mag, I read (and have posted here) about the late magnesium researcher, Dr. Mansmann <[barttersite.org] He was diabetic and reversed his neuropathy by consuming 20g mag/day for a year. His bowel tolerance was around 5g/day, but there are data suggesting that 7% of the mag consumed above bowel tolerance is absorbed. After the year, he dropped back to 5g/day, maintaining the neuropathy reversal.

From memory, the body stores of mag are about 29 g. Most of this is in the bones. So maybe only 4-5 g are in the serum. I'm consuming the amount in my serum daily. I must be dumping huge amounts of mag and I have to take in what I do to keep it balanced.

Hope this helps.

George

Some strange absorption rates, Jackie.

I spent a lot of time researching this some time ago. I don't have all the details now but every source I looked at listed Magnesium Oxide's absorption rate as 4% while Glycinate and Citrate were both 80% - 90%.

Sam

Thanks George; I have read where your bowels can become tolerant to Magnesium especially certain types of Magnesium.

I think my biggest issue is a inconsistent diet. 800-1000 mg of magnesium a day is not to much for me. I have read stories on the internet where people become tolerant to magnesium laxatives requiring more for bowel movements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2014 10:19AM by Hans Larsen.

Here are rodent data. They pretty much mirror my personal experience...

Study of magnesium bioavailability from ten organic and inorganic Mg salts in Mg-depleted rats using a stable isotope approach Volume 18, issue 4, december 2005
PDF: <[www.jle.com]

Table 4. Effects of a two-week intake of organic or inorganic Mg salts on intestinal absorption, 
urinary excretion, and retention of Mg in rats.

% Retained:

MgO 57.0%
MgCl2 54.8%
MgSO4 51.0%
MgCO3 52.0%
Acetate 55.1%
Pidolate 59.7%
Citrate 57.6%
Gluconate 65.5%
Lactate 59.0%
Aspartate 60.4%

Animals received an Mg-depleted diet (150 mg Mg/kg) for three weeks and were then divided into ten groups receiving this diet for two more weeks but repleted with one of the above Mg salts (600 mg Mg/kg). Results are expressed as means (SD). Statistical analysis were based on one-way ANOVA followed by a Student-Newman- Keuls test for parametric variables and a Kruskal-Wallis test for non-parametric variables.


George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2014 01:56PM by GeorgeN.

George - I've read in the past about a gene mutation that does something to the enzymes connected with magnesium function... I'd have to find that and re-read to state it more accurately. I wanted to pursue this avenue because of the inability to hold on to magnesium for many afibbers. My FM MD says to look at kidney function as well because minor 'flaws' in that as we age can be a strong influence.

There is also some thought about how much fibre is consumed relative to how well one resists bowel tolerance with Mg dosing until high levels. It's suggested 25 grams a day minimum fibre intake and a great many people don't even come close to that number.

As for the form of magnesium intake and bowel tolerance, the practitioners that I've heard discussing higher dosing with the magnesium glycinate or bis-glycinate say that they find patients easily to to 1,000 or more w/o bowel issues. I don't seem to be able to consistently stay at 1,000 daily and have to adjust downward regularly so it's easier for me to stay at 800 mg but haven't had a recent Exatest.

The table you offered doesn't include the amino acid/protein bound chelate and I would doubt that the MgO number is accurate even with a rat study from all I've read on the bioavailability of MgO in humans.

Sam - The absorption percentages came from Dr. Burford-Mason (Canada) and her research but I don't have her sources to quote. Sorry.

Jackie

George:

Are you saying that mag. Aspartate and mag. oxide are right up there in their absorption rate with mag. gluconate? I have read where it has been said on this board that Aspartate and mag. oxide are not very readily absorbed, Dr. Brownstein said he has more luck with mag. oxide, so maybe we can't believe everything we read.

liz

Hi Jackie,

I would agree that adding fiber increases tolerance. I've run it from 0 (fasting) to lots (60-80 g and more). I can tell a difference. More fiber = greater tolerance.

I've never used mag oxide in any quantity and I know it is much maligned. However, Dr. Mansmann wrote about using it extensively and successfully.

Part of my "base" layer of mag is 10g/day (2 g/day of mag) of the patented Albion di-magnesium malate powder. As mentioned above, for me it is basically a 1:1 substitution to increase the Albion stuff and decrease the chloride, bicarbonate and glycinate. When I used it, same for the citrate.

Citrate has a reputation as a laxative. However in the form sold for such use there are about 2 g's of mag in a 10 fluid oz bottle. For most (but not me) taking 2 g at once is certain to be a laxative.

I know there are a lot of data suggesting more bioavailability for the (expensive) fancy organic form over the inorganic salts. It may just be me, but I take a lot of both and can't really tell the difference.

My suggestion would be for someone to get to a stable point of bowel tolerance and hold fiber intake constant. Then try a different form and see what happens. You can have your own answer. This is how I figure out most things for me. We all can be a little different. As I mentioned above, my triglyceride response is abnormal. Everything you read and all the study data I've looked at will indicate higher carb consumption = greater trigs. Fasting = much lower trigs. My response is the reverse. I've not figured out why yet, but I can tell you this is my response with repeated testing. With mag, different forms may have a different bowel tolerance effect on different people.

Cheers,

George

I actually have a 10 oz. bottle of lemon flavored liquid Magnesium Citrate in the fridge. It j=has 1.745 grams of Citrate in it.

I DO NOT USE THIS. I bought this 2 years ago when my wife had a colonscopy and had one extra left. I have used it before and at it along with Ducolax "cleansed my colon" for a colonscopy + a dang suppository.

I cannot tell much difference in bowel tolerance between Chelated Magnesium and the pill form of Magnesium Citrate. Both are 200 mg pills but the chelated is 2x more expensive.

All I want what is best to keep magnesium levels up in my system; not magnesium that keeps me on "the throne" and this magnesium citrate pill does not. It seems to work as well as the chelated.

I have no where I know of to take a Exatest where I live. Once again, My home zip code is 71241 and if anyone knows where I can get this done within 100 mile radius OR in the greater Dallas Texas area preferably Plano or Frisco, Please let me know.

Also, Diet plays a very important role for me concerning bowel tolerance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2014 05:19PM by Hans Larsen.

" actually have a 10 oz. bottle of lemon flavored liquid Magnesium Citrate in the fridge. It j=has 1.745 grams of Citrate in it. "

Usually this is the amount of mag citrate/fluid oz. So there is 17.45 grams of mag citrate in the 10oz bottle and if you do the chemistry, it is around 11.1% mag in mag citrate, hence 2 g mag in the bottle.

GeorgeN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> " actually have a 10 oz. bottle of lemon flavored
> liquid Magnesium Citrate in the fridge. It j=has
> 1.745 grams of Citrate in it. "
>
> Usually this is the amount of mag citrate/fluid
> oz. So there is 17.45 grams of mag citrate in the
> 10oz bottle and if you do the chemistry, it is
> around 11.1% mag in mag citrate, hence 2 g mag in
> the bottle.

You are absolutely correct! Magnesium Citrate 1,745g per fl. oz.

Hi Liz,

Just noticed your post.

"Are you saying that mag. Aspartate and mag. oxide are right up there in their absorption rate with mag. gluconate? I have read where it has been said on this board that Aspartate and mag. oxide are not very readily absorbed, Dr. Brownstein said he has more luck with mag. oxide, so maybe we can't believe everything we read. "

That's what the study I linked shows. I've not used either, personally. Dr. Mansmann, who spent 20+ years after he "retired" researching magnesium mentioned oxide positively quite a bit. As I say, for me, I don't notice a big difference between the forms I use.

George

Smackman, not to detract from the excellent magnesium conversation, but I just wanted to mention a little trick of mine. If I eat red meat at night I always, must take a digestive enzyme with it. I've proven over and over again that my gut is not happy without it. The red meat just does not digest easily otherwise, although a hamburger is easier than a steak.
Ron