Ablation for the masses

Hi Everyone,

From cdc.gov: "An estimated 2.66 million people will have atrial fibrillation in 2010. As many as 12 million people will have the condition by 2050". Now unless my mathematics is wrong, there is no way Dr Natale can ablate all of them. And those figures are just for the USA.
I suppose the majority will have to find another way to deal with this affliction.
Should we be concentrating on nutritional/lifestyle/holistic methods to try and mitigate the effect afib has on all those people? Is anyone except you good people on this forum putting together facts and figures to help in this direction? Does the medical profession have any strategy except ablation and pill in the pocket/ drugs?
Is any research being done into it's etiology? Might afib be a symptom like a fever is, and have many causes?

Regards
John

John, You are asking the right questions. Shannon and I figured that we need about 500 clones of Dr Natale to ablate all the cases in the USA. You mentioned not being able to afford someone in the caliber of Natale. Continue to pursue the highest volume centers and use that as a screen to check out the EPs available. There are many other high caliber ablationists out there spread throughout the lower states.

Hi John - Great question. I'm really glad you are both thinking and curious.

And, yes, that's the reality of today's nutritionally deficient diets, environmental toxins and other influences that allow the body to manifest adversely in various ways including expressing negatively, gene flaws that contribute to not only AF but many other health conditions.

It's been scientifically documented for years that a deficiency in magnesium, especially, and imbalances in other core electrolytes can cause arrhythmias. Yet, as an example, doctors are still recommending high dose calcium supplements but not recommending nearly enough magnesium (if at all) to counteract the excitatory effects of calcium on the heart. And so also it goes with the sodium/potassium story. In my afib journey, I have consulted with 3 cardiologists and 3 EPs and not one was ever curious about my diet or about knowing if my electrolytes were optimized in their ranges or respective functional ratios. They are not educated to look for the core cause and remedy that so it's not typically in their treatment protocols.

Integrative cardiologists such as Stephen Sinatra and his colleague James Roberts are among the few who are working to recognize the sources of heart conditions and treating nutritionally. Check Amazon for Dr. Sinatra's books - The Sinatra Solution is one. Another that has been reviewed here several times is that by Jerry Tennant, MD author of the book Healing is Voltage which details how the body starts to fail functionally when lack of the right nutrients allow deficiencies that lead to low voltage or energy... which is especially relevant to arrhythmia patients since we are concerned with interferrences in electrical conduction pathways.

It's really back to basics when it comes to understanding the importance of nutrition... every day, all day...forever.

Even if there were 500 Dr. Natale's available, it still all boils down to what causes the problem in the first place as evidenced by the increasing tendencies in populations to develop arrhythmias. If you have a severe deficiency or imbalance, even if an ablation manages one's arrhythmia, unless the deficiency is addressed, it will manifest in another area eventually and it may be a lot more serious than Afib.

Not everyone is going to have insurance that covers ablations and not everyone without insurance will be able to pay $40,000+ out of pocket.

As an aside - If you haven't read in the Conference Room sessions, especially those on cardiac fibrosis and the importance of the function of the sodium/potassium ion pump mechanism, you should spend time there.

Here's the main link.... lCheck out CR 24, 72 and 75.

[afibbers.org]

Thanks for posting your very important question.

Be well,
Jackie

Will be flying back to the US early tomorrow morning from Holland and will hopefully have more time to address this too tomorrow afternoon from my San Fran hotel.

Quickly there are a a growing number of very skilled ablationists and we use Dr Natale as a template for excellence and for teh easy slam dunk decision. AS Researcher noted, use his template as a guide for good selections when and if he is out of the question for you or anyone you know, including his own mentored fellows and colleagues as a very good place to start.

More tomorrow. And yes there is a lot of research ongoing toward underlying metabolic causes.

Shannon

I believe sedentary lifestyles also contribute to this trend.

______________
Lone paroxysmal vagal atrial fibrillation. Age 62, female, no risk factors. Autonomic instability since severe Paxil withdrawal in 2004, including extreme sensitivity to neuro-active drugs, supplements, foods. Monthly tachycardia started 1/11, happened only at night, during sleep, or when waking, bouts of 5-15 hours. Changed to afib about a year ago, same pattern. Frequency increased over last 6 months, apparently with sensitivity to more triggers. Ablation 6/27/13 by Steven Hao.

There are a lot more people living today in the U.S., also a lot of baby boomers are contributing to our aging population, AF does hit older people, as a rule, more, so that is a factor in the growing numbers of AF.

I, ate pretty good most of my life, lived in the country, had well water, a garden, did not eat very much junk food, yet I got AF, for me, I had too much thyroid med. and I got an episode of AF, that started my AF journey. There are many people that eat poorly, yet do not get AF, they may get some other malady, there is much more to AF then just diet and supplements, those are big, but not the whole equation, something is still missing.

Liz

The bulk of afibbers in the CDC quote are not "lone" or idopathic.

The underlying causes can include:

High blood pressure
Coronary artery disease
Heart failure
Heart attacks
Abnormal heart valves
Heart defects you're born with (congenital)
An overactive thyroid gland or other metabolic imbalance
Exposure to stimulants, such as medications, caffeine or tobacco, or to alcohol
Sick sinus syndrome — functioning of the heart's natural pacemaker
Emphysema or other lung diseases
Heart and/or lung surgery
Viral infections
Stress due to pneumonia, surgery or other illnesses
Sleep apnea
Holiday Heart Syndrome (too much alcohol)

Many lone afibbers are chronic endurance exercisers.

George

I can honestly say I have no idea where my AFIB came from. I lost 90+ lbs in the year 2010. I was on Weight Watchers and I walked. In Dec. 2011 I was still maintaining my weight loss by eating properly and wlaking; staying active.
I went for a routine physical in Dec 2011 and I was told I was in AFIB which would turn out to be persisitent AFIB.

I was told there was no actual reason why I had AFIB;

Somethings have no answer; If they had the answers to AFIB, It would be on the downward trend right?

Interesting to hear your replies, folks.
It seems there can be many and varied causes of this condition.
Hans Larsen has given us all a good place to come to; the advances in communication technology has given us the ability to come here from our own living rooms; advances in medical technology have given us a path to a physical cure, or at least containment.
It seems we can somewhat help ourselves as well with holistic approaches. But as Liz says, something is still missing, and that seems to be true for many of mankind's ills and illnesses.

Personally i think presently i am quite lucky to have a vagal paroxysmal variety that so far has responded pretty well to supplementation and holistic treatment. Living in Ireland, EPs or ablation centres are few and far between. I am however doing research as to the options in that respect as that day may come, and i would like to have a plan ready for it!

Regards
John

In '06 or '07, a man from Wales posted about his afib. It only occurred after nights of drinking at the Pub. I suggested maybe he should not drink. He replied that I did not understand his culture, that this was not possible...

A hard nut to crack that, George. A hero to drink, prepared to die for the cause.
Now the Irish arent like that at all at all.

Although I can't rule out other causes, I'm pretty sure radiation therapy post breast cancer was the cause of my AF. Two cardiologists I've seen in my AF journey felt quite strongly that was the case. To add to the burden I've been told that if that is the case, the radiation is likely creating plaque ....not enough to show up on any tests right now, but bubbling away and very likely to be a problem in the future . I feel very strongly that when doctors prescribe treatments they should inform patients of the risks, as well as the benefits. Unfortunately, in my experience that doesn't happen. Blood thinners are another case in point. They are gung ho about their ability to reduce the risk of stroke but neglect to mention other problems. I have a friend who has been on Warfarin for many years for a DVP problem. She is in terrible shape due to osteoporosis (a side effect of long-term use.) Recently she fell and broke her ankle (a severe break.) They couldn't do surgery because of the Warfarin....so she is in a rehab hospital for at least 4 weeks... and not very happy about any of it.
.

Judianne - I'm sorry to read about your breast cancer and hope you are doing well now. The radiation therapy definitely can be damaging to nearby tissue. One of my friends who had a mastectomy and lots of radiation as was done many years ago, suffered heart valve damage as a result. Fortunately, things have changed somewhat but it's still a Catch 22, for sure. The protocols now seem to recognize that too much isn't useful overall. Just be sure that you are on a high antioxidant regimen to help with the free radical damage and plenty of magnesium so that you reduce the risk of additional fibrotic accumulation in heart cells from magnesium deficiency.

With your friend on warfarin and the osteoporosis - I'm assuming she'll continue with the warfarin so she definitely can benefit from the vitamin K2 supplement in the menaquinone form called K2 MK7 that helps direct liberated calcium back into the bones where it belongs. Warfarin is nortorious for causing osteoporotic bone and this definitely helps prevent more damage. Restoration at this point is a huge challenge. You can check out the science at this website: [www.menaq7.com] Click on the photo of the section of the hip bone.

Be well,
Jackie

What do you think of this explanation of afib etyology? I found it here, as i am reading around the Roemheld syndrome:
[www.medhelp.org]

"arthur  
Jan 18, 2001
The connection between digestive disorders and arrhythmia is likely a subtle one and is likely caused by irritated pulmonary veins.  The most recent research has found that the pulmonary vein ostia (openings to the atria, left and right) contain varying lengths of cardiac muscle tissue which have the tendency to fire off their own sets of signals.  Once these PVs get a bit stressed (causes not clear, but lifelong exercise, age, virus are suspected) they tend to behave much like a muscle tic, sending out abberant signals, some of which are picked up by the atria and conducted into the heart, thus appearing as premature atrial or ventricular beats...mostly atrial.  These PVs have been definitely identified by EP tests as responsible for PACs and PAF.

One cute characteristic of these excited PVs is that they are sensitive to physical changes, ie, changes in posture, movement of diaphragm (like when you get gas, or are bloated from a meal).
Apparently, changes in physical pressure on the PV system will change the characteristics of the hidden tic.  This tic has been reported by many as a "nervous feeling" or "internal tremor" centered in the chest. "

It is likely that most, of not all, atrial premature beats arise from these excited PVs and that pressure up into the thoracic cavity will alter how these PVs behave.  I hope this finally answers the pervasive questions about GI and arrhythmias.  

Most cardiologists may not be aware of this connection.  Most electrophysiologists (EP) will acknowledge the possibility."

Note the date!

From my own experience, from when i started taking omeprazole, i had no afib for a couple of years. At the same time, i had my mercury fillings removed, so was never sure was it that or the omeprazole that had calmed it down. I suppose because the mercury removal cost a lot more, i tended to favour it. Then i read about the dangers of low stomach acid, and started tapering off the omeprazole. Had an episode soon after that. Went back on it, then tapered off again a few months ago and had my most recent attack. Maybe deficiency in magnesium together with stomach irritation lays the trap, and a postural event or a stressor triggers it? Like a twitch in the eye, except in the pulmonary vein.
This seems to tie in with RH: [en.wikipedia.org]

John,

There is certainly a gut-afib connection. For some, they can keep their afib in remission if they fix the gut issues. A long time poster, Dean, from Australia, is one who did this. My recollection is he used PPI's and also ate natto food daily. He may be in Peggy's "The List" in the Conference Room Archives. He certainly has told his story here, if you search on it.

Another fellow, an Hawaiian doctor, had Fundoplication surgery to fix his GERD and his afib. I'm fuzzy on the results at this point. Again, if you search on Fundoplication here, you should find his story.

During the time when I was taking too much calcium, I was sensitive to cold food. Since I rectified the calcium issue, the cold food as a trigger went away.

George

Thanks Jackie, Shannon, George for all the info and links. I have much reading to do!

2 questions: would an upper endoscopy show up a hiatus hernia, and has anyone had experience of massage tecniques as in:
[www.healingnaturallybybee.com]

Regards
John

Hi JohnBM and welcome to our message board and website, you definitely found the right place.

I noticed you are in Ireland so its clear why your quality ablation options are a little more difficult to arrange. If you can afford to swing it though, at some point when and if the time is right, there is Bordeaux and either Professors Haissaguerre or Jais there who are very reliable and top tier ablationists with a vast amount of experience. Also Sabine Ernest in the UK seems like a potentially solid recommendation, though Im not as familiar with her yet as I would like.

Anyway, on a prior reply to one of your comments on your local EP offering to ablate you as literally an initial guinea pig, I mentioned you might find it easier to afford a Natale ablation than one might assume, provided you have insurance that works with him, but obviously that is not the case from Ireland.

Just so you know, for those coming from overseas for a Natale ablation the cash price is $40,000 which includes five days hotel stay in Austin and car pick up service to and from the airport. At least you have that as a bottom-line budget, plus the airfare from wherever you are to get your bearings.

But it sounds like an ablation is still a good ways off for you and its right at your stage to really focus religiously on the dietary and supplemental protocols, such as The Strategy here as an initial foundation that in quite a few cases can be enormously helpful in at least putting the genie part way back in the bottle, or slowing her down a bit, and in a number of cases stopping arrhythmia altogether for very long periods at a time.

Its almost always a valuable part of the ongoing management process with this life long beast of a condition, and is a great idea to continue not just for heart calming effects but other health benefits as well, long after a successful ablation process.

Take care,
Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2014 10:37AM by Shannon.

John - Some hiatal hernias can be managed with manipulations and if you can find a skilled, knowledgeable practitioner, it makes sense to try that as hiatal hernias affect the vagus nerve which can definitely adversely affect the heart.

This link to a report on the Vagus Nerve by Steve Rochlitz, PhD is worth noting.
[castlehighkingdom.proboards.com]

Also: [www.godlikeproductions.com]

The Gut Connection to Afib report is at this link: [www.afibbers.org]

Jackie

Thats a great deal of research, many thanks Jackie.
Some i am reasonably up to speed with. I used Lugol's for a good few months last year for Iodine, and am now upping mag and potassium with seemingly good results. Should i take all 3? I have been using lo salt for years, and did Dr Lam's supplements for years, liponano and all!. Not having a bottomless pocket, i have to pick and choose what i buy.
Did a full course of organic probiotics last month.
Got GP to do CRP, last year, results good. Pylori test a few years ago was negative. Endoscope did not show hernia, but i did a lot of heavy lifting for years. I read the Rochlitz article a few years ago.
I just took the AF risk calculator, got a score of 0. Should i still take the daily aspirin with my diagnosis of crohn's, which seems alot better since stopping wheat.
I hope you don't mind all these questions

John - Good questions... good that you are asking.

Great that you are seeing good results by increasing your magnesium and potassium intake. Don't forget to also choose foods that emphasize those as well. The Lo Salt may be useful for the potassium content... or you could get the potassium gluconate powder and just fill an empty shaker with that to add to food. It tastes slighly salty but "not really." You do need some sodium intake so perhaps the LoSalt is your best option.

Glad to see no hernia or H. pylori.

Most people are iodine deficient. Remember that if you live where the water is fluoridated, that cancels out your idodine. Have you had a thyroid profile?

While daily aspirin may be economical, there is a good deal of indication that used long-term, there are adverse health effects. While it does help with 'thinning' the blood, there are other things you can use that work as well or better without the risk of side effects. Some say that using the baby aspirin dose or 81 mg is a safer option... although asprin is still aspirin. I understand the use of aspirin for gut inflammation with Crohn's but eliminating gluten forever will give you good relief. I'll check my 'Crohn's files' to see if there are any useful gems there for you. I worked with an afibber years ago who suffered greatly with Crohn's...and I may have something of interest to you.

Do a google on the risks of long-term aspirin use... risk of GI bleeds are one... macular degeneration is another...

If you are concerned about managing blood viscosity, then consider using the nattokinase product ... or take Ginkgo biloba which has all of the anti-platelet aggregation properties but none of the risks of asprin. Of course, magnesium is also helps prevent platelet aggregation as well.

Neurosurgeon, Russell L. Blaylock, recommends Ginkgo... he says:

About 350 mg of ginkgo biloba a day equals
an aspirin in terms of blood-thinning ability, and
aged garlic extract does the same. About 250 mg of
curcumin dissolved in extra-virgin olive oil three
times a day also thins the blood slightly. Omega-
3 oils (fish oils) thin the blood as well, while
improving blood flow. A combination of magnesium
and ginkgo may be adequate — that can be
determined by blood studies your doctor can run.
These supplements are so important because they
have a great number of other health benefits. They
protect the brain, act as antioxidants, strengthen the
walls of blood vessels, stabilize platelets, prevent
cancer, improve blood flow and prevent heart
attacks and strokes.

Many anticoagulant medications have significant
side effects, and the degree of blood thinning is
difficult to control. Some of these medicines can
even increase the risk of leukemia.
(Blaylock Wellness Report Sept 2006)

I hope this helps,

Jackie

Ahhh Jackie - I had to stop an excellent heart health supplement that I had been taking for a number of years, as it has ginko biloba in it (among a number of other stellar ingredients for cardiovascular health), and I'm now on Xarelto. Neither Dr. Natale nor Dr. Barrett wanted me to take it with the Xarelto, as it does have blood thinning properties. Both doctors also commented that "gingko has not been shown to have any benefit", to which I disagreed, but didn't say so to them. They sounded like they had either read the same study or conferred together, as their response to my asking if I couldn't continue this supplement was almost identical.

I am hoping that I can get off of the Xarelto in another six months, when they repeat my TEE. But in the meantime, I dont' like being "unprotected" without this supplement...and now should I be worried about leukemia?? Yikes!

Barb

Barb - I would not worry because your treatment is relatively short-term by comparison. You are well on your way to getting back to normalcy and when you are off all your meds, you can get back to Ginkgo. Herbal remedies were here long before Rx drugs and they have provided countless benefits - regardless of studies proving this or that. When you take an Rx anticoagulant, you definitely don't want to mix in anyother substance that may potentiate the drug's action.

Just be patient and be well,
Jackie

@Jackie, a big thankyou for sharing the masses of research that you have done. An excellent resource for us all.
Best Wishes,
John