For Jackie: Question on enzymes for fibrosis

Jackie - I read your recent post to Duke, who is new to our Board. You provided a link in your reply that had a discussion on cardiac fibrosis, with suggestions to consider enzymes (sorry..forget the type..pro..something). I'm wondering if there is any downsize to trying these. I apparently have a fair amount of fibrosis in my pulmonary veins, and if this might help to reverse that situation, that would be great. I'm still waiting to get my full report back from the TEE I had done yesterday, but I do know that I have scarring and at this point, what looks like a "stunned" atrium...?

What are your thoughts on this? I found that link interesting.

Thanks ~ Barb

Hi Barb,

I've gotten conficting information from a number or docs on whether or not too concentrated a therapy with proteolytic enzymes might also impact intended ablation scars or not?

On the one hand I doubt they would undo an ablation, but Im not 100% sure they could not negatively impact the situation in the early days right after an ablation while the ablation scars are forming. Anyway, this is an issue that needs a clearer answer before I could feel confident using an intensive enzyme therapy program mainly for fibrosis removal for an AFIB ablation patient.

Im hoping too that the hormone Relaxin .. in the form of 'Serelaxin' which is slowly making its way through the fits and starts of drug approval process now for congestive heart failure and cardiomyopathy as well as being investigated as a prime AFIB related fibrosis preventer and possible remover, will get approval before too long. That might be a safer way at this point until we know more for sure about the potential for enzyme impact on ablation scars.

A modest dose of proteolytic enzymes most certainly will not impact ablation scars though, and is good for lowering overall systemic inflammation and lower blood viscosity in some cases like Nattokinase.

Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2014 03:32PM by Shannon.

HI Shannon - thanks for that warning. I didn't think about how it might affect ablation scars....

As it might also work on blood viscosity, I'd be hesitant for that reason too, as a possible conflict with Xarelto...

May just hold for now and keep my eyes and ears open as to when or if to consider this.

~ Barb

Barb - When I first began researching Nattokinase, I asked Dr. Natale if there was any risk of having them interfere with the ablation scarring. He said, "No - because it wasn't the actual scarring that was important... it was the transmurality that made the burns effective... in other words... destroying the ability for the electrical conductivity between the gap junctions from cell to cell to cell. He said the Nattokinase would be fine.
I have never stopped using it since 2003.

Keep in mind, though, and refer to those CR sessions on fibrosis... magnesium deficiency lies at the 'heart' of fibrosis formation...so you can work at it by a two-pronged approach... continually optimize your magnesium intake... and use the Nattokinase. Some of the stronger proteolytic enzymes include the Wobenzym and Dr. William Wong's formulation (Zymessence) which is more potent than the Nattokinase and you may want to investigate that further but I'd think the same principle applies.

As you mention, I'd wait until you are off the Xalerto.

Be well,
Jackie

Barb and Jackie,

I agree that Nattokinase alone is not going to come close to negatively effecting a recent ablation even during the early scar formation, Im just not as confident when adding in the large doses of other proteolytic enzymes when people take 20 to 30 or more of those pills throughout the day for more intensive anti-inflammatory and fibrosis removal in other parts of the body. That is my one question mark and concern is if someone discovers one of these more intensive protocols and starts it the same day or day after an ablation when the tissues have not set up full transmural lesion scars yet, that there 'could' possibly be some mild reversal of the positive scarring of the ablation just when it is forming up. If the underlying tissue recovers just enough to allow a thin nerve to reconnect along the bottom of the lesion then you could be back in business.

I dont think anyone knows for sure what threshold of proteolytic enzymes is safe in this particular regard. But I do feel perfect safe with a typical Nattokinase/ Cardiokinase protocol even with a healthy added dose of Serrepeptidase added in to the mix. But there are some much more potent formulas out there I would be careful with until month tw land beyond the ablation when all healing of the tissue is complete and then no real scar removal is at all likely.

Anyway, I wanted to clarify that distinction. I have never stopped used Cardiokinase, even the day of my ablations and Lariat I started up right away and even while on Coumadin though I had carefully titrated my Coumadin INR to maintain a safe range with the addition to 300m/day of Cardiokinase as well in three divided doses one every 8 hours.

Take it easy,
Shannon