Can Nattokinase reduce the ablation scars?

Is it possible that the use of Nattokinase could reduce the effect of an ablation? There is much information on the Internet about the ability of Nattokinase to reduce scar tissue. Yet the effect of an ablation is to create scar tissue to block errant electrical impulses. If Nattokinase is good at doing its job, does it not follow that it would eliminate or reduce the ablation scars over time?

As I understand it, our primary reason for taking Nattokinase is to reduce stroke risk by reducing possible blood stickiness.

There is also some interesting information out there about the effectiveness of grounding or "Earthing" for eliminating clumping of blood cells and in helping blood flow smoothly. Dr. Sinatra as well as Mercola speak very highly of this practice. Could we accomplish the desired effect of smooth flowing blood without the risk of diminishing the ablation scars, by grounding regularly and often and not by using an enzyme?

Ron

PS I have been grounded at least 12 out of every 24 hours for almost 2 years.

What an interesting question! Indeed, why would the procedure-established scarring within the atrium be any different than scarring elsewhere?Further, it would seem to be an area more exposed to the effects of nattokinase (being constantly flushed with blood) than most other parts of the body. Could this be a problem for post-procedure success rates?

Hmmmm

edit:
I just did a quick google re scarring and nattokinase and virtually every site listed was some semi- "mickey-mouse" location without reference to any studies to back up the contention that nattokinase reduces scar tissue. Does anyone have knowledge of an up-to-date, reasonably large and unbiased study on the effects of nattokinase? Or is nattokinase just another supplement cure-all whose reputation vastly exceeds any real medical value? And PLEASE, no references to what some doctor or expert recommends...as without some solid studies to back the claims, they have no more insight into the effects of nattokinase than any of the rest of us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2013 01:23PM by Tom B.

Ron - I asked Dr. Natale that when I resumed the NK shortly after my ablation in 2003. He said "No"... because the ablation success depends on destroying the electrical connections between the gap junctions to prevent cell-to-cell-to cell communication and does not rely on the 'scar' itself.

When thinking about how nattokinase actually works, it reduces the formation of fibrinogen in the blood (to make it less thick and stocky) so it is called a fibrinolytic enzyme. (lytic means to lyse or break down).

Whereas, the stronger proteolytic enzymes that work on other scar tissue in the body break down or lyse excess scar formation like adhesions from surgical procedures. The proteolytic enzyme guru that I consulted years ago when researching the Nattokinase process, (William Wong, PhD) and who developed his own version of Wobenzyme... called Zymessence says that the proteolytic enzymes do not lyse away scars that hold wounds together...such as cuts or that from a surgical procedure. In other words, you can have internal adhesions from abdominal surgery and the serrapeptase doesn't 'eat away' the natural scar in the area of the incision... otherwise, your innards would spill out.

The Earthing or Grounding is a definite benefit to keep platelets from clumping. Dr. Sinatra and the Earthing people.. Clint Ober, et al, have done some small studies with remarkable results showing the benefits of Earthing. When weather permits, walking barefoot outdoors is easy and economical. Walking barefoot in wet sands at the seashore is also highly beneficial for grounding. Depends on where you live and the season.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie - I thought you would have dug into this question. It's good to know. I've had amazing results from enzymes in an industrial application. Obviously enzymes are specific to the food choice they prefer. Thanks for your reply.
Ron

Ron B - here's an abstract of a 2006 study that is useful and you can learn more at the Cardiokinase website... [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]


Clin Hemorheol Microcirc. 2006;35(1-2):139-42.

Effects of nattokinase, a pro-fibrinolytic enzyme, on red blood cell aggregation and whole blood viscosity.

Pais E, Alexy T, Holsworth RE Jr, Meiselman HJ.
SourceDepartment of Physiology and Biophysics, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90033, USA.

Abstract
The vegetable cheese-like food, natto, is extremely popular in Japan with a history extending back over 1000 years. A fibrinolytic enzyme, termed nattokinase, can be extracted from natto; the enzyme is a subtilisin-like serine protease composed of 275 amino acid residues and has a molecular weight of 27.7 kDa. In vitro and in vivo studies have consistently demonstrated the potent pro-fibrinolytic effect of the enzyme. However, no studies to date have evaluated the effects of nattokinase on various hemorheological parameters and thus we have begun to assess the effects of the enzyme on RBC aggregation and blood viscosity. Blood samples were incubated with nattokinase (final activities of 0, 15.6, 31.3, 62.5 and 125 units/ml) for 30 minutes at 37 degrees C. RBC aggregation was measured using a Myrenne MA-1 aggregometer and blood viscosity assessed over 1-1000 s(-1) with a computer controlled scanning capillary rheometer (Rheolog).

Our in vitro results showed a significant, dose-dependent decrease of RBC aggregation and low-shear viscosity, with these beneficial effects evident at concentrations similar to those achieved in previous in vivo animal trials. Our preliminary data thus indicate positive in vitro hemorheological effects of nattokinase, and suggest its potential value as a therapeutic agent and the need for additional studies and clinical trials.

PMID:16899918[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Quote from the above post:

"suggest its potential value as a therapeutic agent and the need for additional studies and clinical trials."

This only illustrates what I've been saying, that there are still no studies that would indicate benefit, reliability in real world environments, etc. to justify reliance upon this supplement for critical stroke reduction purposes.

Again, I ask, is there any comprehensive study information that can establish nattokinase as both a credible alternative blood thinner, or how it affects scar tissues? After all, internet pundits abound on many sites saying that nattokinase helps remove scar tissue. On this site the focus is on blood thinning via the reduction of fibrinogen levels in the blood. Who, among them, do you believe?

Being the devil's advocate; what, pray-tell, is the "kind' of scar tissue that nattokinase (as described by it's providers) breaks down?

I also notice that an above post referenced William Wong Phd, is a producer of a product - which seems to be a common theme (along with sales outlets) for just about all of the information regarding supplements often quoted on this matter.

Am I the only one that has a problem with the advertised uses of nattokinase seemingly being so undocumented?


Regarding ablation generated scar tissue:

What is the process that destroys the gap connections? For RF ablation, heat.... and that would be the destruction of large numbers of healthy conductive cells. Certainly, the gap connections are not isolated and then destroyed by the ablation process...the ablation process is obviously a "broad brush" by any microscopic cellular standard and entire cell groupings are obliterated. It also seems reasonable to conclude that scar tissue could reduce the likelihood that the conductive-capable cells would reconnect. Based on study-based AF return problems years after an ablation, for some it appears that there is likely a natural process of regeneration between the PV irritable foci and the conduction paths through the atria...could that regeneration process be mitigated by the ablation-caused scar tissue?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2013 02:09PM by Tom B.

Assume you're looking for articles more like these: <[scholar.google.com]

Hi George,
No, those articles are predominately experimental in nature, most of which are related to animal testing. Those that do include human subjects seem to be limited to small non-representative groups.

Most medicinal products that have real impact on human health have had studies that include use trials to ascertain real world effectiveness and interactions. The use of nattokinase as a substitute for such medicines that do have a proven record for blood thinning, for example, likely would be dangerous, should the user assume the product is effective by way of statements found on forums such as this one.

I have used nattokinase (three different brands) for a period of about two years (three capsules per day). For one year of that period, I had my fibrinogen levels tested every three months. My fibrinogen levels actually increased from my start point over that year, and greatly so during periods of what I consider routine inflammation due to excercise stresses and the occasional virus. At times, the level would also decrease dramatically.

Based on my own experience, fibrinogen levels may be reduced with the use of nattokinase, but not controlled to the extent that a person would have a reliable alternative to other proven blood thinners. That is why large trials/studies of nattokinase USE is necessary, to determine whether or not human subjects can maintain the anti-clotting levels necessary to reduce stroke risk in every day life.

Tom

Tom,

I don't think there is any financial incentive to do the tests you're talking about, since nattokinase is a natural product and (I presume) not patentable. Your approach - self testing & using yourself as your own control - is what I would do, especially when how it works on you, not some other group of people is what counts the most.

George

On the topic of efficacy... and not about reducing ablation scars... Following are a few of many studies on the efficacy of nattokinase to lower PAI-1 levels and reduce fibrinogen levels.... (just a few of many) and thereby prevent clot formation by lowering blood viscosity. It certainly worked for me when I had the clot in my LAA.

If fibrinogen is elevated as a result of a pathogen...such as Lyme disease.... then more aggressive measures may be needed which include the concomitant use of Lumbrokinase along with the very best Nattokinase (Cardiokinase) to reduce the inflammation and elevated fibrinogen levels. Elevated fibrinogen is an indicator that all is not right and it's important to learn the reason why.

Jackie

Nattokinase decreases plasma levels of fibrinogen, factor VII, and factor VIII in human subjects
Chien-Hsun Hsiaa, Ming-Ching Shenb, Jen-Shiou Linc, Yao-Ke Wend, Kai-Lin Hwange,
Thau-Ming Chamf, Nae-Cherng Yangg
Available online at www.sciencedirect.com
Nutrition Research 29 (2009) 190–196
(I have the pdf of this if you'd like to read it)

Focus Allergy Research Group® Newsletter May 2003
L o n g - t e rm , L ow-intensity Warfarin (Coumadin) T h e ra py Highly Effective Method of Preventing Recurrent Ve n o u s
T h r o m b o e m b o l i s m : Can Nattokinase Play a Role? See page 2

L o n g - t e rm , L ow-intensity Warfarin (Coumadin) T h e ra py Highly Effective Method of Preventing Recurrent Ve n o u s
T h r o m b o e m b o l i s m : Can Nattokinase Play a Role? See page 2
New England Journal of Medicine, April, 2003.

New Nattokinase Case Histories from Martin Milner, N.D.
See page 3

Ralph Holsworth, Jr., D.O., on the use of Coumadin &
Nattokinase with Practical Protocols See page 3
[cnmwellness.com]

Amyloid-Degrading Ability of Nattokinase from Bacillus subtilis Natto
Ruei-Lin Hsu, Kung-Ta Lee, Jung-Hao Wang, Lily Y.-L. Lee, and Rita P.-Y. Chen
J. Agric. Food Chem., 2009, 57 (2), 503-508• DOI: 10.1021/jf803072r • Publication Date (Web): 31 December 2008
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Prevention of Venous Thrombosis in Long-Haul Flights with Flite Tabs: The LONFLIT-FLITE Randomized, Controlled Trial
Angiology. 2003 Sep-Oct;54(5):531-9.
Cesarone MR, Belcaro G, Nicolaides AN, Ricci A, Geroulakos G, Ippolito E, Brandolini R, Vinciguerra G, Dugall M, Griffin M, Ruffini I, Acerbi G, Corsi M, Riordan NH, Stuard S, Bavera P, Di Renzo A, Kenyon J, Errichi BM.
Source Department of Biomedical Sciences, Irvine2 Vascular Lab, G D'Annunzio University, San Valentino Vascular Screening Project (Pe), Pescara, Italy. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Natto And Its Active Ingredient Nattokinase A Potent and Safe Thrombolytic Agent
Martin Milner, N.D., and Kouhel Makise, M.D.
Alternative & Complementary Therapies -- June 2002, pp 157-164

[cnmwellness.com]

[old.cnmwellness.com]



References
1. Online document at www.Tokyoclassified.com/biginjapanarchive299/267/biginjapaninc.htm

2. Sumi, H., Hamada, H., Tsushima, H., Mihara, H., Muraki, H. A novel fibrinolytic enzyme (nattokinase) in the vegetable cheese natto: A typical and popular soybean food in the Japanese diet. Experientia 43(10):1110–1111, 1987.

3 . S u m i , H . Accumulation of Vitamin K (Menaquinone-7) in Plasma after Ingestion of Natto and Natto Bacilli
(B. subtilis natto). Kurashiki, Okayama Japan: Japan Functional Food Research Association, Department of Physiological Chemistry, Kurashiki University of Science and the Arts, 1998, pp. 1–5.

4. Sumi, H. Structure and Fibrinolytic Properties of Nattokinase. Okayama, Japan: Department of Nutrition, Faculty of Health and Welfare Science,Okayama Prefectural University.

5. Osborn, T.M., et.al. Intravenous thrombolytic therapy for stroke: A review of recent studies andcontroversies. Ann Emerg Med 34:244–255, 1999.

6. Online document at www.jafra.gr.jp/nattoe.html

7 . Streptokinase. Online document at www.familypracticenotebook.com Key search sequence = Hematology and Oncology, Pharmacology, Coags Thrombolytic, Streptokinase.

8. Collins, R., et al. Aspirin, heparin and fibrinolytic therapy in suspected acute myocardial infarction. N Engl J Med 336:847–846, 1997.

9. Pizzorno, Jr., J.E, Murray, M.T. Bromelain. A Textbook of Natural Medicine. Kenmore, WA: John Bastyr College Publications, 1985, [looseleaf update; V:Bromelain, pp. 1–5].

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11. Pizzorno, Jr., J.E., Murray, M.T. Panax ginseng. A Textbook of Natural Medicine. Kenmore, WA: John Bastyr College Publications, [looseleaf update; Vanax ginseng, pp. 1–8].

12. Sumi, H., Hamada, H., Nakanishi, K., Hirantani, H. Enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in plasma by oral administration of nattokinase. Acta Haematol 84:139–143, 1990.

13. Ohkuro, I., Komatsuzaki, T, et al. The level of serum lysozyme activity in animals fed a
diet containing natto bacilli [in Japanese]. Med Bio 102:335–337, 1981.

14. Fujita, M., Hong, K., Ito, Y., Fujii, R., Kariya, K., Nishimuro, S. Thrombolytic effect of nattokinase on a chemically induced thrombosis model in rat. Biol Pharm Bull 18(10):1387–1391, 1995.

15. Fujita, M., Hong, K., Ito, Y., Misawa, S., Takeuchi, N., Kariya, K., Nishimuro, S. Transport of nattokinase across the rat intestinal tract. Biol Pharm Bull 18(9):1194–1196, 1995.

16. Okamoto, A., Hanagata, H., Kawamura, Y., Yanagida, F. Anti-hypertensive substances in fermented soybean, natto. Plant Foods Hum Nutr 47(1):39–47, 1995.

17. Murayama, M., Sumi, H. Basic and Clinical Aspects of Japanese Traditional Food Natto. Miyazaki, Japan: Department of Physiology, Miyazaki Medical College, 1998.

18. Maruyama M, Sumi, H. Effect of natto diet on blood pressure. In: Murayama, M., Sumi, H. [authors of book]. Basic and Clinical Aspects of Japanese Traditional Food Natto. (vol. II) Tokyo: Japan Technology Transfer Association, 1995, pp. 1–3.

19. Loehry, C.A., et al., Permeability of the small intestine to substances of different molecular weight.
Gut 466–470, 1970.

20. Gardener, M.L.G. Gastrointestinal absorption of intact proteins. Ann Rev Nutr 8:329–350,
1988.

21. Murray, M. Thymus extracts, J Naturopathic Med 5(1):77–79, 1994.

22. Sasaki, K., Moryama, S., Tanaka, Y., Sumi, H., Toki, N., Robbins, K.C. The transport of 125I-labeled human high molecular weight urokinase across the intestinal tract in a dog model with stimulation of synthesis and/or release of plasminogen activators. Blood 66(12):69–75, 1985.

23. Toki, N., Sumi, H., Sasaki, K., Boreisha, I., Robbins, K.C. Transport of urokinase across the intestinal tract of normal human subjects with stimulation of synthesis and/or release of urokinase-type proteins.
J Clin Invest 75(4): 1212–1222, 1985.

24. Sjum, H., Sasaki, K., Toki, N., Robbins, K.C. Oral administration of urokinase. Thromb Res Suppl 20(5–6): 711–714,1980.

25. Daiwa Pharmaceutical Co., Ltd. Cultured Filtrate of Natto Bacilli NKCP: Novel food Material From Japanese Natto. Oral Administration to Humans and Determination of Fibrinolytic Activities, Tokyo: Daiwa Pharmaceutical
Company, Ltd., 2001.

Bibliography
Astrup, T. Egeblad, K. Thromboelastographic patterns produced by fibrinolytic agents incorporated in fibrin. Am J Physiol 209:84–94, 1965.

Bentley, R., Meganathan, R. Biosynthesis of vitamin K in bacteria. Microbiol Rev 46:241–293, 1982.

Hosoya, N. Recommended Dietary Allowances for the Japanese (5th ed.) Tokyo: Daiichi-Shuppan, 1996. Orimo, H. Vitamin K2 and osteoporosis [in Japanese]. Medical Tribune, November 16, 1995, pp. 36–37.

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Sakano, T., Notsumoto, S., Nagaoka, T., Morimoto, A., Fujimoto, K., Masuda, S., Suzuki, Y., Hirauchi, K. Measurement of K vitamins in food by high-performance liquid chromatography with fluorometric detection [in Japanese].
Vitamins 62:393–398, 1988.

Schurgers, L.J., Vermeer C. Determination of phylloquinone and menaquinones in food: Effect of food matrix on circulating vitamin K concentrations. Haemostasis 30(6):298–307, 2000.

Suzuki, K. Vitamin K-dependent proteins and their functions. In: Iwanaga, S., Saito, H., Matsuda, M. (eds.) Vitamin K [in Japanese]. Tokyo:Medical Journal, 1994, pp. 109–253.

Uehara, S., Goto, K., Honjo, K., Handa, H., Tsuji, Y., Hirayama, A. Effect of aging and gender on plasma phylloquinone and menaquinones concentrations in healthy adults. Jpn J Thromb Haemostas 8:127–133,
1997.




Effects of nattokinase, a pro-fibrinolytic enzyme, on red blood cell aggregation and whole blood viscosity
Eszter Pais a, Tamas Alexy a,∗, Ralph E. Holsworth, Jr. b and Herbert Meiselman a
a Department of Physiology and Biophysics, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern
California, Los Angeles, CA 90033, USA
b N-ZymeCeuticals Inc, Pagosa Springs, CO 81147, USA
Clinical Hemorheology and Microcirculation 00 (2006) IOS Press



THE JOURNAL OF BIOLOGICAL CHEMISTRY Vol. 276, No. 27, Issue of July 6, pp. 24690–24696, 2001
© 2001 by The American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Inc.
The Profibrinolytic Enzyme Subtilisin NAT Purified from Bacillus subtilis Cleaves and Inactivates Plasminogen Activator Inhibitor
Type 1*
Received for publication, February 26, 2001, and in revised form, April 26, 2001
Published, JBC Papers in Press, April 26, 2001, DOI 10.1074/jbc.M101751200

Tetsumei Urano‡§, Hayato Ihara‡, Kazuo Umemura¶, Yasuhiro Suzuki¶, Masaki Oikei,
Sumio Akitai, Yoshinori Tsukamotoi, Isao Suzuki**, and Akikazu Takada‡
From the Departments of ‡Physiology and ¶Pharmacology, Hamamatsu University School of Medicine, 3600, Handa-cho,
Hamamatsu, 431-3192, Japan, the iCentral Research Institute of Mitsukan Group Corp, 2-6, Nakamura-cho, Handa, 475-
8585, Japan, and the **Faculty of Environmental and Symbiotic Sciences, Prefectural University of Kumamoto, 3-1-100
Tsukide, Kumamoto City, 862-8502, Japan

TomB

The nattokinase is derived from natto food but there are other enzymes in the natto food that also affect blood clotting and are anti –inflammatory as well:

-Pyrazine that gives natto food its awful smell and reduces the likelihood of blood clotting.

-Tetramethylpyrazine that is anti-inflammatory compound.

So in the natto food you have these three things, nattokinase, pyrazine and tetramethylpyrazine all affecting blood clotting with anti-inflammatroy action as well. Also a large amount of vitamin K2.

Question is do you need all three or can you just cherry pick nattokinase out (as the supplement industry has) and say it does the same job and doesn’t need the other two to work properly? Hmmm....

This is my beef about using nattokinase only. I agree with you entirely that nattokinase needs proper scientific double blind studies before its accepted to do the job it’s suppose to do. The proper scientific studies are just not there.

I’m approaching 11 years afib free with no ablation and have been religiously eating natto food every second day for the last 8 years. I take no pharma drugs or supplements and no special diet.

Dean

Jackie,

I think you are missing my point.
I'm not arguing the ability of nattokinase to reduce fibrinogen, rather it's effectiveness as a long-term anticoagulant. If fibrinogen levels are affected by inflammation due to common illnesses and ordinary exercise, how can fibrinogen levels be effectively stabilized to assure protection from stroke while using nattokinase? A drawback of warfarin is the necessity of constant lab testing - testing for nattokinase use would likely be required also, since fibrinogen levels are affected by other factors as noted above.

In essence, the problem is one of application - can nattokinase be used as a substitute for proven blood thinners? I have yet to see any data to support that notion - nothing you have provided covers that concern.

Further, the use of cnmwellness.--- as a source of information is of dubious value, as they are in the business of selling the product.

My only concern is that some nattokinase users may think they are relatively safe from stroke, when in reality, they are afforded no protection at all at times when their natural fibrinogen levels exceed safe anti-clot levels due to their body's inflammation response to various, commonly encountered triggers.

Tom

This is the summary paragraph from the report by Milner and Mikase on the com wellness site [cnmwellness.com] June 2002.


Nattokinase is an exciting new com- pound with proven very potent fibri- nolytic activity. Natto extracts with significant amounts of nattokinase are promising functional foods. All prior epi- demiologic and clinical research points to nattokinase’s effectiveness and safety for managing a wide range of diseases, including hypertension, atherosclerosis, coronary artery disease (such as angina),
stroke, and peripheral vascular disease. Evidence from long-term use at high doses in Japanese people points to nattok- inase as a safe nutrient that acts as a very powerful fibrinolytic agent. However, more research is needed on humans to verify the predicted safety of formulated extracts that deliver high concentrations of nattokinase while eliminating naturally occurring vitamin K. ■

Hmmmm. Should I really be self administering?

I nicked myself while shaving the other day and noticed quite a bit of bleeding before it clotted.

I also found a web site on Dengue Fever, which I will try and find again and post. It stated that it is very dangerous to be on Coumadinor Warafin if there is risk of Dengue. I am travelling in Mexico as we speak, and there has been a much higher incidence of Dengue here in the recent past. I wonder if Nattokinase puts me at the same risk.

......that is, Nattokinase without the naturally occurring vitamin K factor. Vitamin K is contradictory (the antidote) to Coumadin and Warafin. Is it also necessary to allow clotting while taking Nattokinase in the supplement form???

Tom - I provided the links to show there were studies on the anticlotting properties of nattokinase...esp. the prevention of deep vein thrombosis on long-haul flights. It's always smart to check other viscosity markers as well if one is concerned about stroke risk.

Since I didn't do well on warfarin, I chose not to use it except for the pre and post ablation procedure which was a month pre and 6 weeks post procedure.
I used Nattokinase instead based on my conversations with Dr. Holsworth who is the top NK expert here in the US.


Ron - note the date is 2002... that's over 10 years of NK usage by many, many people for anticlotting. I've used it myself since 2002.

The recent info published on Cardiokinase at that website quotes Drs Sumi and Holsworth regarding efficacy.

The vitaman K discussions and warfarin typically caution that using too much NK along with warfarin can cause bleeding from the microcapillaries....first sign would be a nose bleed.

The best approach for hyperviscosity is to check out the testing and info at Meridian Valley Labs... Shannon has posted numerous times and used their labs while he was preparing for his last two procedures. I do mine with the various other markers I've mentioned previously... and noted that my fibrinogen was elevated during the Lyme saga....so that was another tipoff and more reason to use higher dosing of the NK.

Most cardiologists and EPs know of Nattokinase... in fact someone posted that the EP in San Francisco said to use.. Dr. Hao, I believe. However, because it's not on their pharmaceutical protocol list or Standard of Care... you don't often find them recommending it ... but my experience is if they know of it, they have no problem with it.. just as Dr. Natale had no problem with my taking it 10 years ago.

I have low platelet count but I clot normally with NK whereas if I'm on warfarin, I have problems.

If you are nervous about the Dengue fever and NK... just don't use the nattokinase.

Have a nice vacation.

Be well,
Jackie

Thanks Jackie - just trying to do the right thing, and it seems to take a lot of research to satisfy my inquiring mind. You are right that 10 years is a lot of time to go by, and so my concerns may be for naught. I have been taking 2000 x 3 per day. I just wish I had a better handle on what my blood was like now. I know that I have an elevated LP (a) at about 30, and surprisingly an LDL count that is slightly off the bottom end of the range. I just finished reading Jimmy Moores Cholesterol Clarity book, and will follow up with some number comparing when I am back home where my records are. I think I will try to have another cardiovascular profile this fall. The other approach I should look at it simply including some Natto - the food - in my diet.
Ron

Dean, you said you have been afib free for 11 years with no ablation. I am curious if you had lone afib, how long you had it and how you got rid of it. I apologize if you have posted it before -- I did a search of your name, but didn't find a post of "your story."

Thank you,
Louise

Louise,

Here is one part of it <[www.afibbers.org]
more in this search <[www.afibbers.org]

George

Ron - just remember that it's the oxidation of LDL cholesterol that causes problems. A good antioxidant supplement program along with plenty of foods high in antioxidants keeps that concern at a minimum.
Jackie

George, thank you so much! Such organization -- amazing!

Louise

TomB,

The issue will not be resolved to the degree of confidence and satisfaction you and everyone would prefer, until and unless a very deep pocketed company or research institute was willing to fund the large scale randomized clinical trials that would be needed to get a better idea of where Nattokinase stands relative to the big pharma blood thinners.

Alas, being a non-patentable substance such that is will never in a million years be subjected to the kind of super expensive process ( upwards of $800,000,000 for each major drug) to put it through all its paces needed for FDA approval), no matter how good it might be in the real world, it will never achieve the kind of confirmation you are demanding.

However, keep firmly in mind as well that the absence of the kind of double-blind studies that might be ideal, in no way means that something like Nattokinase is useless or ineffective for achieving its claimed effect or benefit, either in part or entirely.

It may or may not be fully or partially as effective as claimed in all the anecdotal reports, and so it comes down to doing as much due diligence as possible including reading the animal as well as limited but growing and largely supportive human studies, small though they necessarily have been to-date, in order to determine whether the balance of evidence supports its use as part of an overall blood viscosity management protocol in one's own mind, or not.

My rule of thumb is this... each person has to know their own demeanor and how willing they are to do the homework and follow through with detailed testing that might well indicate the impact of taking a supplement like Nattokinase might well be for them, even when much of the evidence is largely anecdotal.

Many people are just not cut out to go that route and that is perfectly fine and they should just go with the drugs their Docs prescribe and relax and hope for the best. That, even though around 9% to 10% of people on pharmaceutical blood thinners still have strokes/TIAs while taking the drugs properly and thus for those people, they might well argue ( after the fact) that the drugs were totally ineffective and feel like they were sold a bill of goods too, if absolute assurance is what they are looking for. Just like someone who was taking some brand of Nattokinase when they had a TIA might blame it as being ineffective, even though they may have not been taking it every 8 hours as indicated and possible chose a cheaper less reliable brand which is an issue one has to address when buying supplements to insure at least a pharmaceutical quality control level in the products they buy and which, for the most part, is taken for granted when buying a drug from the pharmacy.

Id love nothing more than for this patent business not to be such that is makes Pharmaceutical science almost at war with natural substances. Its ironic due to the fact that the vast majority of drugs they research and develop are directly derived from some natural substance and then are tweaked and refined just enough to create and enhanced effect and most of all to achieve patent status.

Most people are not willing to risk going only the natural route and I understand that. I recommend that if you have a serious constant risk for stroke/TIA then I would go with Coumadin or once this Portola Pharmaceutical reversal agent is approved and widely available, then Eliqius preferably or Xeralto would be decent alternatives for those at the most serious risk for stroke.

That being said, for those willing to really go the full nine yards and do frequent testing using Meridian Valley Labs Hemothix whole blood viscosity test combined with complete anti-platelet profile testing from a speciality hemodynamic oriented or university laboratory, and combined with periodic bleeding time tests and occasional Trans-esophageal echocardiography exams and at least one 3D CT or 3D MRI scan of the LAA to determine LAA morphology ... all of which can give a very good and reliable picture of how much real world confidence that one's comprehensive all natural protocol is likely to provide and give a very strong indication of whether or not your program is working well or not., then in those cases I say go for it and best wishes.

By the way, Dr Ralph Holsworth MD and Jonathan Wright MD both of whom have done pioneering work on blood viscosity measurement and optimization with both all natural and natural combined with drugs each confirmed their finding in a fairly large cohort of patients tested with the Hemothix machine, that taking 100mg 3X a day of NSK-SD form of Nattokinase results in an average 20% decrease in whole blood viscosity in those with mildly to significantly elevated whole blood viscosity... that alone is a worthwhile finding .

Dr Natale also told me that while he cant prescribe Nattokinase without the supporting double blind studies and FDA approval ( for obvious legal reasons if nothing else) he does see anecdotally that it has some blood thinning benefit and is the only natural substance he has seen than can have a modest impact on INR levels.

There are a very few number of people willing to do all of that religiously, but for those who do, Im convinced from all that I have seen and discussions with quite a few top functional medicine MDs when I was researching all of this, that a person going this route and following a strict dedicated protocol will very likely achieve even better results in terms of stroke reduction (of all kinds) while also improving many other areas of their health compared to solely relying on the very broad trends from the Big Pharma trials.

Nevertheless, I do recommend most people to take pharma blood thinners or get a Lariat or Watchman if they have a serious risk for stroke or TIA as I know what a major commitment it would be to safely achieve a solid degree of confirmable safety with confidence going only the all natural route, but if you are willing to do all the testing which will confirm the effect of your protocol along the way, it is possible to develop a reasonably safe and likely far healthier protocol as well. Definitely not for the masses though!

Shannon

Hi Shannon,

You pretty much expressed my feelings on the matter. Again though, my own experience with highly variable fibrinogen levels while taking nattokinase religiously- reflect the need for repeated fibrinogen testing for effectiveness. Even so, how much more does one need to take to bring levels down? Only more studies will provide those kind of answers.
I disagree with the notion that only big pharma can afford studies... the amount and pricing of nattokinase (among other supplement products) should certainly support supplement-industry sponsored trials that establish some relationship of dose vs fibrinogen levels (as an example).

Perhaps the lack of such supplement industry committment is why some of us have become as wary of its claims as we are of those advertised by big pharma.

Tom