Nattokinase vs. Warfarin, etc.

I have been out of Pradaxa since last Thursday. The pharmacy has been unable to reach my Dr.'s office to renew the prescription. I have been taking a couple of ibuprofen every day (don't know if it helps except slightly psychologically.)

I have gone back to read several posts regarding Nattokinase vs. anticoagulants and am thinking I may just start taking 100 mg of that 3x a day instead of Pradaxa. I don't like taking Pradaxa, but switched because of the inconvenience and questionable side effects of Warfarin. After reading recent reports on afib and the results of people actually getting strokes more frequently than people who don't have afib, I'm wondering if the risks of Pradaxa are worth it.

I am 64 and keep thinking "they" will come up with an antidote for Pradaxa soon, but I am wondering if anyone "gave up" their anticoagulants and are taking nattokinase exclusively as a blood thinner.

Louise

Louise,

You might be interested in reading my suggestions for natural approaches to stroke prevention at [afibbers.org]

Also, could you please elaborate on your statement: After reading recent reports on afib and the results of people actually getting strokes more frequently than people who don't have afib.

Hans



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2013 04:59PM by Hans Larsen.

Louise - please elaborate on why you were on warfarin in the first place... any history of heart attack or stroke...or just afib. Do you see a cardiologist or an EP. Any other meds for any other conditions? Sorry if you've presented this previously... just provide the link and I'll check there. I'm pinched for time.. but am a big fan of Nattokinase so want to respond appropriately.

Jackie

Sorry all. I typed too fast and said the opposite of what I was thinking.

I read all the posts started by lisa mac on October 1 titled "stroke risk," and read the referenced material. Unless I misunderstood what I was reading, it seems that people with lone afib DO NOT have more strokes than people without afib, whether they are on an anticoagulant or not. That's a gross simplification, I know, but that's what I took from it.

Jackie, I was put on Warfarin as soon as I was diagnosed with afib in March 2010, and switched to Pradaxa later that year. I have had 2 echo-cardiograms (one at that time and one in February of this year) and there is no indication of any other heart disease. I have seen 3 cardiologists since, but no EPs. I am not taking any other medication except hormone replacement, and I have no other medical issues. I am taking magnesium (finally up to 450-500mg/day), potassium, taurine, CoQ10, and vitamin D. (By the way, Jackie, you and Hans are amazing and I would never expect you to remember what I have posted in the past!

I also have had no adverse issues with Pradaxa, so I could stay on it -- it's just the lack of an antidote that worries me a little, so I was wondering about nattokinase. I should also mention that I have had accidental cuts and cat scratches since taking anticoagulants and I do not bleed much, although I know that's not the same as a major internal injury. The pharmacy mentioned that estrogen (I am on Estriodal, the next to the lowest dose) might interfere with the Pradaxa, but my GP said it wouldn't.

Thank you!!

Louise

Louise - Just a quick comment... if you have no other health problems, then typically afib patients are not placed on warfarin at the onset diagnosis.
Many years ago with my onset Afib I was prescribed warfarin and tried to use but couldn't tolerate so stopped and never used again until the ablation procedure requirements 8 years later... then only for a minimum of time. My Functional Medicine MD said that I could keep my blood platelets slippery with Omega 3 fish oils and the anti-clumping effects of magnesium... Vitamin E and other supplements. That's what I did until I discovered Nattokinase and then I added that in a 24/7 dosing basis. Still use that because of my age and I want to be sure that my blood is not thick or sticky. If you could get your GP to order the viscosity markers... that might help put your mind at ease about not using an anticoag.

Did you say the estradiol as bioidentical? And... you should also be using bioidentical progesterone along with the estradiol... too much unopposed estrogen is not a good thing.

Jackie

Thank you, Jackie. In my list of supplements I forgot to say I also take 3000mg of fish oil daily, and have for many years.

The Estriadol is not bioidentical -- just a generic of estrogen, and I do take progesterone as prometrium.

I have always been under the impression that everyone who was diagnosed with afib was immediately put on a blood thinner. I am very encouraged by your reply.

By the way, my Estriadol was due the same time as the Pradaxa and I have not had that for 5 days either. I did have a slight hot flash in the middle of the night last night, but I'm wondering if I should stop hormones as well. I have been taking them for 11 years. I also have heard that hormones can effect your heart rate. Do you know of a correlation?
I started taking them because I had all of the symptoms of menopause and could not function without them, but have stayed on them mostly to keep from growing a beard!! May be a good time to stop.

Louise

Hi Louise,

If the estrogen you are taking says 'Estradiol' then it is bio-identical Estradiol. However, it is not at all a good idea to take ANY estrogens by mouth. Also so many regular pharmaceutical preparations .. ie not compounded just for you ... are oral forms.

Careful meta analysis of the large Women's Health Initiative and many years of experience by skilled BHRT MDs have shown that it is the oral intake of estrogens .. even the horse estrogen Premarin which is not recommended for other reasons as well ... that is the main culprit with the more typical estrogen replacement therapy you are almost sure to get from a regular OB-Gyn, Endo, GP etc.

Taking estrogens orally triggers initially a first pass metabolizing effect through the liver in which a larger percentage of unhealthy metabolites are created that then flood the blood stream and then to all the estrogen cell receptors in the body in a metabolizing sequence that is precisely backward from the way the body naturally produces and distributed estrogen throughout the body. And this completely backward estrogen metabolic cycle due to oral consumption of estrogens is what contributes to most of the issues with non-bioidentical replacement with 'estrogenic-like' hormones. This is what causes all the blood clotting and thrombosis triggering side effects found in a modest number of women using Premarin ( a horse estrogen based formula). It wasn't so much that it was because it Premarin is a horse derived estrogen that caused the cardiovascular side effects noted in the WHI, they discovered that it was due to the oral delivery form for any estrogen that is not at all a good idea.

Not surprisingly the makers of Permarin have been loath to agree with and educate docs about this fact as it would expose them to endless law suits going back to the introduction of Permarin. As such, the vast majority of MDs still don't have a clue about the dangers of oral estrogens and simply think all forms of estrogen have issues which is not the case at all!

So, if you are taking an oral form of Estradiol, then either discuss this with your Doc and ask to switch you to a good compounded topical gel or labial cream for applying your estradiol (you can PM me for suggestions on good compounding pharmacy in your area). If your doc wont listen, then you should consider finding a skilled functional medicine doc that has been certified in BHRT ( bio-identical hormone replacement therapy) and they can easily get you on the right formula for your estradiol instead of an oral form of Estradiol.

The Prometrium you are taking orally is fine, that too is bio-identical progesterone and its fine to take progesterone orally since it doesn't produce any unhandy metabolites in its first pass metabolizing run through the liver and it does produce a very beneficial metabolite called 'allo-pregnenolone' which will increase your natural calming neurotransmitter called GABA and dramatically improve your sleep when you take the Prometrium before bed.

I am impressed that your Doc apparently gave you Estradiol and Prometrium so obviously he or she is hip to the benefit of using your own natural bio-identical hormones. If they are not familiar with the issues of oral delivery of any estrogen including Estradiol, then if you PM me with your info I can either direct you to some literature to help enlighten him or her on the issue.

Keep in mind to LOusie, taking Estradiol and Progesterone is NOT at all only about lessening menopause symptoms. They are critical for good cardiovascular health, help to prevent and reverse to a good degree even moderately advanced osteoporosis, helps restore and increase collagen formation in the skin and organs, improves muscle tone, significantly improves cognitive health helping to retard dementia and improve memory and improve mood and sense of well being.

They also can help greatly in reducing stress and improving sleep as well, particularly when adding in the oral form of progesterone taken at night just before bed.

The cardiovascular improvements alone are well worth making repletion with Estradiol and Progesterone well worth while and you will do even better when adding in modest physiological doses of DHEA ( a compounded sublingual solution is best) and small doses of Testosterone with forms the third leg of the sex hormone stool with Estradiol and Progesterone.

You will get better overall health results when you add these two hormones, at least, to the Estradiol and Progesterone protocol you are using now, and of course all of them should be bio-identical meaning they are the exact same molecule your own body produces and knows how to metabolize fully and safely.

Best wishes,
Shannon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2013 02:34PM by Shannon.

Wow, Shannon, thank you. What an education for me. I actually thought "bio-identical" meant something created just for me and my chemistry. I also thought Estradiol was just a generic estrogen supplement.

Of all the valuable information (incalculable!) I have obtained on this site, probably the most important is that doctors never give you as much information as they should and in a lot of cases that is because they don't know themselves!

I will look into other forms of estrogen (and re-read your post several times).

Again, thank you, and best wishes to you!

Louise

Jackie,

I ordered Doctor's Best Nattokinase and the label says to take it between meals. In CR 39, page 10 under Dosing... it also says to take on an empty stomach.

However, in CR40, page 20, #5 says to take it with meals.

If I am to take it between meals, how long should I wait before/after eating? Thank you,

Louise



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2013 05:50PM by Louise.

Louise - the newer formulations of NK are said to be protected from influence of stomach acid....but I always take mine in the morning on empty and don't eat for an hour or two and the same with the evening dosing... at bedtime, on empty. When I was taking it 3 times a day, I would do it mid-day on empty as well. Just thought it wouldn't hurt to be on the safe side in case stomach acid did actually interfere.

Remember - if you are an active afibber... then you want to be sure you have 24-hour coverage - so 3 times a day and never skip the late night dose that carries you through through the wee hours and early morning when risk of clotting is highest.

Jackie

Jackie, is there an "accumulation" of NK in my system? I am diligently keeping a journal and taking my NK 3x daily, 8 hours apart. I have to coordinate this with my supplements that have to be taken with meals.

I will be traveling at the end of the month and in a different time zone. I will try to stay as much on schedule as possible but am wondering if there is any leeway. Also, since we are careful to find NK with all the Vitamin K removed, how careful should I be with green vegetables?

Thank you, Louise

Louise.. there is some overlap coverage between the 8 hours so if you are a bit early or late with dosing, it's not that critical... just don't skip dosing.

No concerns on avoiding green vegetables as being interferring.

Have a great , relaxing trip.

Jackie

Thank you, Jackie, as always, for your quick, caring responses!

Louise