Where to from here?

Hello Forum followers,

Reading the posts here help me see I am not alone, and while the discomfort and anxiety others are feeling I wouldn't wish on them, it does give a kind of comfort.
The frequency and duration of my afib episodes has increased dramatically over the last month. This week I've had daily episodes, lasting from 4 hrs to presently, 16 hours and counting. Also it seems the type of episodes have changed from starting at night and at rest to the daytime and when I begin exercise or am under stress; from vagal to andrengenic in a month?
Started the Strategy in earnest about 2 months ago, first gradually increasing magnesium until at 1200 mg/day my bowels indicated enough. Have added potassium, taurine, Omega 3's, D-ribose, L-carnitine, CoQ10...the works, and, like I said, the episodes have gotten more frequent, longer and generally changed in nature. What gives? What does this indicate? I feel like stopping everything at this point!
Had my yearly visit with the cardiologist I've been seeing for about 9 years and finally said I was ready to discuss ablation. I am so frustrated, and tired and scared. He set my up an appointment with the EP in his practice who does ablations and prescribed a blood thinner to start on beforehand.
I am at a loss as to what the right path to take for me. The answers will come in time, I know, but this is a crummy place to be in . Thanks for this forum and the hope that I find here.
Marty

Marty,

What about food and drink? Are you getting enough water? (dehydration is one of my triggers) Or still eating something that is causing problems in your system - chocolate, MSG, too much sodium, etc.

Hang in there! I know how hard it gets at time, but this is a great group of people who help out.

Nancy

For many of us, afib is truely progressive no matter what life-style changes along with diet, supplements, etc. we embrace. I finally went the ablation route and don't regret it at all. I am not misled into thinking I am permanently cured... but my life is so much better - even with triggers still initiating occasional PVC's and PAC's I no longer have afib and the need for the horrible drugs that go along with it.

Tom

My experience too, Tom, although truth be told I didn't mind Flec that much and was on 300mg as a Pill in Pocket when needed and it always worked . I guess it was tolerable because I wasn't taking it every day but usage was getting more frequent andt getting bouts of AF a couple times a week sometimes and never knowing when it was going to strike, well I got really fed up with that. I also got worried it could turn persistent.

Marty,
Did you add the supplements one at the time to see how you reacted to each one?

Ribose put me into Afib twice when I tried it.

All the others you mention help most people but each one makes some worse. That's why it's essential to add one at the time. That way you know which help and which don't.

Sam

Thanks for everyone's input and suggestions. For the time being I stopped taking anything, as of yesterday. An afib episode which had lasted 20 hours converted at 3pm, but then started up again at 6 pm. Thankfully it converted again at 9 pm and I've had 12 hours of peace.
I did start the nutritional supplements with magnesium and added others one at a time. I wasn't paying good enough attention to my reaction to each one as added so the process needs to start over. Interesting that you mention the ribose Sam, for I just started that in earnest this past week.
I will consult with the EP in a couple of weeks, continue to monitor here, keep educating myself and go from there.
The holistic heart article posted yesterday was a good read for me. I am an emotional guy and have become aware of the amount of anger I carry around with me (and always have); this could be a key.
Marty

Hi Marty - It's often the best tactic to stop everything and introduce back one by one the various supplements... separately so you can identify the culprits if they exist. Remember that optimizing the stores inside cells where the action is... takes a lot of time...and often it's years of persistence before results come together.

And yes, a body full of anger, is a highly-acidic body. An acid body supports dis-ease and arrhythmia because it interferes with cellular energy productioin and ultimtely, heart function... among many other things. You could benefit immediately by making and using continuously the Magnesium Bicarbonate water we call WW or Waller Water. It helps everything. I reposted the directions for making WW in the post to Noreen just now.
Be sure you take a look.

Jackie

If you decide on ablation make sure you research the EP who is going to do it. Success rates can vary from 30% to 80% depending on the skill and experience of the EP. A lot of inexperienced EPs are keen to rush to ablation because they need the practice. I wouldn't want anyone practising on me!

Gill

Red rage is one thing that can be depended on to start an afib episode for me. Also a continual state of sullen anger does not seem conducive to sweet NSR. Have i mentioned my teenage nephew who used to live with me? Also i need to stay out of the building that houses our local DHHS.

Yours for a state of tranquillity

PeggyM

Marty, how are the actual levels of K,Mg Sodium and calcium in your blood ? Have you had it tested lately ? It would be interesting to know what they actually are while your in this Afib run.
Have you tried a pill in the pocket right now ?

Jackie, what should our levels be ? I have a couple printouts from tests i've had.

Larry - You can publish your test results here and we can offer a 'guess' but because those are serum... they don't reflect what's inside the cells.... however, if you are low in the serum ranges, then you'll be low intracellularly.

There are numerous posts in the Archives by Erling on electrolyte levels... one (follows) as related to Phyllis’ Exatest testing which reflects what’s actually inside the cells (where it works) as opposed to serum levels where it has yet to become functional…

You can use the search feature and plug in Exatest to see lots of input on this highly accurate and valuable evaluation…look especially for those contributions by Erling who’s name now appears as Anonymous.

The Exatest Guidelines offer the best description of functional levels for electrolytes. (save this one for future reference).
[www.afibbers.org]

Re: Exatest results - advice please
July 16, 2012 05:03PM
[www.afibbers.org]

Hi again Phyllis -- Stress, inflammation, ROS, hormones, Mg deficiency, age -- it's all additive in generating myocardial fibrosis (excess fibrous tissue [en.wikipedia.org] ), but Mg deficiency is surely the 'biggie' -- it definitely was in my case. Here's looking at your Exatest results "by the numbers". Many thanks for reporting them clearly - it makes this much easier to see.

Element Result. Ref. Range

-- Magnesium 34.6 34 – 42
This value is nearly below range in spite of diligent supplementation. Such is the nature of "refractory (intractable) magnesium deficiency", described here many times over the years, e.g. [www.afibbers.net] Quotes:

"A substantial minority of patients fail to improve after taking oral magnesium for months or even years. In these cases, administering magnesium by injection is necessary to overcome their medical problems." (Alan Gaby, MD, MS.)

"Magnesium metabolism has one quirk in that, if the level is low enough to cause symptoms, it is low enough that the body loses its ability to absorb it efficiently orally." (Walt Stoll, MD.)

-- Calcium 4.4 3.2-5.0
A good value indicating proper functioning of the sodium/calcium exchanger pumps which are driven via sodium/potassium pump activity (Na/K pumps).

-- Potassium 236.1 80-240
This level is good -- intracellular K is always much much higher than serum K due to being forced into the cells by myriad Na/K pumps (much like forcing air into a tire with an air pump). As with the calcium value, this too shows proper activity of the Na/K pumps.

-- Sodium 4.2 3.8-5.8
Good.

-- Chloride 5.6 3.4-6.0
Good.

-- Phosphorous 15 14.2-17.0
Good.
==========

Ratios Results Ref. Range

-- Phos/Calc 4.1 3.5-6.0
Good.

-- Mag/Calc 6.7 6.1-12.2
Good.

-- Mag/Phos 2.3 1.8-3.0
Good.

-- Potass/Calc 37.6 19.1-38.0
(Good. Somewhat high due to high activity of Na/K pumps and consequent low calcium.

-- Potass/Mag 5.8 High 2.4-4.8
This high K/Mg ratio is likely from high Na/K pump activity coupled with very low Mg.

-- Potass/Sod 43.8 High 19.4-38.9
This high ratio drives high Na/K pump activity / optimal electricity generation (cell voltage).
==========

Na/K pumps are powered by Mg-ATP, and ATP is produced by the myriad mitochondria, so high Na/K pump activity indicates high mitochondrial activity - a very good thing. Your IC magnesium is at least adequate, otherwise Na/K pumps would not be generating low IC calcium and high IC potassium.

All of this leads to the (scientifically supported) conclusion that longtime magnesium deficiency led to atrial interstitial fibrosis, disconnecting groups of cells from normal sinus node signals, their natural automaticity causing them to be "rogue" pacemakers.

Here's an educated recommendation:
1. a course of IM or IV magnesium (e.g. Meyers' Cocktail) to overcome the magnesium uptake resistance.
2. high dose oral fibrinolytic enzymes to remove the fibrosis, reestablishing normal electrical conduction in the myocardium

Eight years ago Jackie authored Cardiac Fibrotic Remodeling [www.afibbers.org] Today there is even greater understanding about fibrosis and enzyme therapy.

Please be well!

Erling.

Larry,
I recently had blood tests done for my annual physical and will look those up today. Have requested that my primary care physician order an EXA test for me, but haven't heard back, so will call today and see what's up. Have not tried PIP approach.
Interesting, that since Friday, when I stopped all electrolyte supplementation, after the last afib episode converted at 9 pm, not a blip or beep or skipped beat (can't know for sure at night, but they usually wake me up); 60 blessed hours of NSR! That is my longest stretch in weeks! This makes me even more motivated to get the EXA test done though.
It is way too early to know if this is an anomaly or perhaps I was supplementing incorrectly. Looking back, by all accounts, my troubles really ramped up last November when I began increasing magnesium! Really need to know those intercellular levels to proceed from here.
And, like I mentioned, anger (and shame) have been with me a long time. Thought I had done a lot of work in this area but it turns out I have a long way to go. Believe I turned a corner last week after reading the holistic heart article and the realization that I carry these damaging emotions around with me constantly. My shame level was through the roof last week. It all goes back to my childhood, being a sensitive lad, with a raging dad who was emotionally abusive. I've forgiven him a long time ago but haven't done the same for myself. Enough said for now.
Later, Marty

Magnesium would invariably cause me to go into afib (prior to ablation) - these supplements are not for everyone. Some will say its the pill or the brand, etc, but that is just BS. I tried many brands and types of blends - still the same result.

Jackie, you are an extremely smart woman and been a great help to the community. It may be a good idea that people know their levels ( with the EXAtest) before starting to add suppliments. One reason is other meds such as BP ace inhibitors and water pills mess with your levels, so you really don't know where your at with Mg, K and others.

Marty, everyone has some kind of emotional baggage . Look to the future and say FU to the past. It will just eat away at you. Holding all that tension inward probably affects your stomach and vagal nerve . Have you been checked for ulsers ?
Fathers of the older generation didn't show love to their sons (and daugters), and use to say things like "children should be seen and not heard". No wonder, im so shy and insecure !

Larry - I'm just another former afibber trying to help newbie's sort out their problems and help reverse AF naturally if they are interested in going that route.. becaise the science tells us that fundamentally, the core nutrients that the heart needs to support energy production and conduction are often missing and that deficiency sets the stage for the arrhythmia to begin.

I definitely think the Exatest is important and would be wonderful if everyone had it as a start, but unfortunately, it's not that readily accessible for various reasons including cost but it's definitely worth checking into and doing if at all possible. www.exatest.com

That said, however, it's well known and a 'given' that afibbers will be deficient in magnesium and most likely, too high in sodium and low in potassium. Women who take calcium supplements will also have problems if they don't offset the calcium with magneisum at least 1:1 and preferably 2:1 magnesium to calcium.

It's also given that if you take other meds especially those for blood pressure, your electrolytes will be affected. The puzzle is why so many cardiologists treating who recognize what HTN drugs deplete, don't get into more specific analysis of deficiencies when first diagnosing and treating arrhythmias. They could save patients a lot of grief if they would order the appropriate nutritient testing in the first place, but then, we know that's not going to happen.

So, then... forums or support groups like this crop up where people share their experiences, disappointments and ongoing sagas since most of us have learned we must take control of our body's healthcare and fully understand what's needed other than drugs which may not work or cause more problems.

Jackie

Marty - hidden or repressed emotional trauma is very damaging as you know. It's good to acknowledge your history and take steps to deal with it as keeping it 'festering' offers you nothing but the downhill slide in terms of overall health. Childhood trauma and abuse remain with us forever but we can learn to deal with the outcroppings so that they are no longer an active part of who we are.

Long ago, I was introduced to the power of essential oils of plants as a way to help release buried emotions as the energy frequencies of these oils are very healing and calming. There are wonderful healing oils that you can use at bedtime to help you relax and get good, restorative sleep.

I also became a student of energy healing which has helped tremendously with my arrhythmia and deeply-suppressed emotional traumas and I've continued with not only learning the practice of energy healing, myself, but continue to be treated by energy healers with remarkable and profound results. I recently enjoyed an evening learning about pranic breathing and energy clearing that was indescribable.

The book, Feeling Buried Alive Never Die (Karol Truman) and Releasing Emotional Patterns by Carolyn Mein may be helpful for you. There are numerous CDs that are extremely useful for relaxation techniques... reference see the Belleruth Naparstek's Health Journeys Guided Imagery CDs are especially useful for relaxing your mind and thus, your body. Many other highly informative books on the heart as it relates to blocked energy and clearing the energy pathways.

Immerse yourself in alternatives for relaxing and stress reduction. This is just a few of many.

Jackie