Just curious - does ablation reduce ectopics?

Just curious since I just went through a couple of days of nearly intolerable ectopics. What are people's experiences, after ablation are ectopics the same, better or worse? I've never seen anything in a study on this, unless Hans has something I have never seen.

Everytime I get an exacerbation I start thinking ablation of course but I never considered whether it would address the symptoms as well as the actual afib.

Monty

Hi Monty,

Since my ablation in April of last year, my ectopics have greatly reduced. I still have one here and there, but nothing like before.

Zach

Monty:

I am only on my 4th day post-ablation, but I was having dozens to hundreds of ectopics per day prior to the ablation, and now averaging only 3-4 per day, and declining.

11 days after ablation and my ectopics have virtually vanished.

Tom

Just to be different, I have had a couple of instances where the ectopics have been so persistent they made me think I was in afib (4 months post-ablation now). But they seem to be settling down now.

Just to add to the discussion: My experience is similar to Neroli's. The first four months or so, I sent in several event monitor recordings because I thought I was in afib. Turned out to be "lots of activity" but no afib. I am two years out from my ablation and do continue to have daily ectopics but they are not as frequent or as bothersome. In addition, I am not on any medication other than warfarin.

Laura

Laura,

You may wish to have your serum potassium level checked. If it is below 4.5 mEq/L you may find it beneficial to increase your intake of potassium-rich foods or supplement with potassium gluconate. If this does not improve things you may be short of magnesium and need to take steps to remedy that. See The Strategy for further details [www.afibbers.org].

Hans

Montos

I have been in nsr for almost 10 years since my ablation in Bordeaux. The first year after the ablation I had a few ectopics but the number has increased almost every year since then. I sometimes get over 9,000 on a 24 hour Holter. The docs say they are a nuisance but not harmful.

They used to be very uncomfortable, like being kicked in the chest every few seconds and I was considering asking the team in Bordeaux if they could do any further work to stop them. But first I decided to try supplementation, starting with magnesium, then adding taurine, and finally potassium. The difference was huge - I thought that they had stopped, but a Holter showed that they were still happening. I just could hardly feel them any more.

That has been the situation for about 4 years now - lots of ectopics but I hardly notice them.

Gill

Hans, thank you for your advice. I will have to check, but I think on my last lab series potassium was 4. It's quite possible that I need to bump up my intake. Fortunately, I have some potassium gluconate from iHerb on hand

Laura

Gil,

What doses do you use and are you consistent with them or do they vary based on symptoms?

Monty

Monty

I am very consistent. I take, daily:

750mg Chelated magnesium in tablet form plus a variable amount of Waller Water for magnesium bicarbonate
2000mg Taurine powder (used to take more but gradually reduced it with no ill effects)
4 teaspoons potassium gluconate powder (2160mg of potassium)

I vary the amount of Waller Water to keep me at bowel tolerance. It was when I added the potassium that I noticed a huge difference in the feel of the ectopics.

Gill

I still get a few ectopics from time to time, the major thing is that I don't end up with afib or aflutter, they just go away. I take Papaya Enzyme chewable tabs to help end ectopics, I am already maximizing my Potassium and Magnesium. Get a Cardymeter to know exactly what your levels are for Potassium .

For those whose PVC/PACs are triggered by drops in Potassium (K) ... me for example ... just be aware of how quickly in some people your K level can drop even intra-day from what was just hours ago a decent blood level.

I have verified this many times with direct correlation tests between my Cardymeter, a same time Serum Potassium blood lab test and ectopic symptoms. When every my blood level or Cardymeter is above 4.3 to 4.4 my heart is as steady as a rock, when it drops to 4.1 or especially down between 3.9 to 3.6 .. I very often get these annoying runes of periodic PVC/PAC 'Gu-Thumps' .. Either a teaspoon shot of potassium gluconate powder two to three times a day , or what I use most often now is. I tale a time release 20mEQ Potassium Chloride tablet ( prescription) in the morning and just before bed maybe 250mg to 400mg of Potassium Gluconate in water with 2 to 3 grams of L-Glutamine amino acid powder as well as L Taurine .

I have a documented extreme hyper excretion issue with both Magnesium and Potassium with big swings in intra-day Potassium and a great difficulty in getting my Magnesium levels into a decent intracellular range (Exatest), and a hard time keeping my Potassium above 4.3 consistently. My potassium levels can go from a great 4.7 an hour or two after taking the Potassium Chloride tablet down to 3.7 in approx 12 to 15 hours time! The swing is even faster when taking K Gluconate since it is not time released.

The point being that don't take too much reassurance from a decent Potassium blood level taken once in a blue moon. You still may well have low serum and IC potassium in the moment when your ectopics are acting up.

Try the PAC tamer formula or something like what I am doing to see if it helps. So far .. most always any day with a series of periodic ectopic runs will quiet down dramatically on hour or so after taking a 20MeQ of K-Chloride.

Just be sure that you do run low Potassium on some testing, preferably too with the Cardymeter which is an invaluable tool for any one afflicted with AFIB or even ectopics. And make sure you have decent Magnesium intake as well to support any addition potassium.

Eat lots of avocados as well But anyone dealing with Potassium therapy needs to get conversant with the Cardymeter and use it periodically at least to make sure you are not creeping too high in the mid 5.5 range or above which can cause even more arrhythmia problems.

Cheers Shannon

I just finished almost a month of wearing an event monitor 23.5 hours a day that autodetected aFib and had a button to press when I had any chest issues or palpations, etc.

End result? Even though I was sure I had caught some episodes of aFib during that time (albeit only a few minutes at a given time) it turns out that after examining some 60 'events' - there was not a single aFib episode recorded. It appears what I experienced was skipped beats. I met with my cardio/EP this week and the end result of our discussion was simple that this is not MY time for an ablation; the TIKOSYN I am on is working 100% but giving me a "balloon head" for an hour or two in the morning, which I can live with... I doze and watch TV news in the AM before showering and going about my business. If I reach the point where I can no longer tolerate the side effects or TIKOSYN stops working (he has patients that have been on TIKOSYN for 7 years and are quite happy).... at that point we can talk about the short list for an ablation by two of the best around just down the road, etc.

The punch line? In order to "achieve" these skipped beats I had to consume salt and stop supplementing with Magnesium and Potassium. As soon as I started up the Potassium again the skipped beats virtually disappeared. I don't recall ANY since starting back on the Potassium in fact. I am bringing all of the supplements back online. Vitamin C time release megadoses? I didn't have even a hint of a cold since starting this in two years. Stopped Vitamin C... guess what? Two colds back to back. Coincidence?

The Potassium and Sodium factor was the one that splashed cold water in my face. We are all an experiment of one.... my experiment seemed to prove that (a) TIKOSYN is working 100% for me; and (b) Potassium is a critical supplement - I have mine checked with every set of bloodwork and try to maintain it in the 4.5 - 5.0 range (not above and not below) to avoid any 'issues'.

FWIW.

Murray L

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Tikosyn uptake Dec 2011 500ug b.i.d. NSR since!
Herein lies opinion, not professional advice, which all are well advised to seek.

Can anyone suggest a good place to get a Cardymeter from? As in cheapest from a reliable source. Seems they are all about $230. I assume they work from saliva? I saw a Youtube where someone was demoing using a bood sample.

afhound,

You can find lots of info about cardy meters in Conference Room Session 74 [www.afibbers.org]

Hans