Supplements seemed to stop working for me

Hi All:

Since my last post I have seen a 2nd opinion Dr (EP#2) who says I have afib not a-flutter. He has also referred me to Dr Chou at Cleveland Clinic for possible ablation. Both EP#1 and #2 agree my heart is strong and valves are good, based on echocardiogram. My EP#1 saw that Mg supplementation was helping so he did not want to see me again till Nov! However, I am back having afib after 7 wks supplementation so I have an appt with EP#1 tomorrow.

I have been taking the recommended brands of magnesium glycinate, potassium gluconate, and Co-Q-10 for about 7 weeks now. The first 4 weeks were great – essentially no AF episodes, after having daily AF for 3-6 hrs/day prior to the supplements. In that 4 wk period I tried adding taurine for a week or two, but was having skipped beats so I tried stopping taurine and it seemed to reduce those. I started the L-carnitine and Co-Q-10 a couple weeks after starting Mg and both seemed to help reduce ectopics a bit.

My current status is that I have had 6 AF episodes in that last 3 weeks (from 15 min to 1.5 hr in duration) following those 4 weeks of bliss after starting the supplements. I stopped calcium-fortified OJ last week, and that seemed to reduce ectopics. Also, in the last week, I stopped fish oil too just for grins (was taking 3/day), and maybe it helped, can’t really say - may start it back again. A few days ago, I found that putting ½ tsp of potassium gluconate in my drinking water per 12 oz was nice for stopping skipped beats, and for warding off AF if I drank it as soon as AF started. I am on a K-sparing diuretic for Meniere’s that I have experimented with reducing to avoid flushing K but I found I have vertigo attacks if I don’t stay on it for at least 2 of 3 days. My Meniere’s Dr (neurotologist) wants me to stay on the diuretic and just supplement K if I have to.

I can say that even though I am having AF episodes, I have been having very few ectopics since drinking the K-water and stopping the calcium-fortified OJ. I am dealing with AF breakthroughs that occur with little warning usually during or just after eating, especially later in the evening. FYI, I am eating 4 small meals a day rather than 3 larger meals. Light activity helps keep away AF, exertion brings it on. So I think I am in the adrenergic AF camp, for the most part.

Here is my current regimen:

magnesium glycinate (800 mg/day elemental Mg, divided doses)
L-carnitine (500 mg 2x/day)
Co-Q-10 (100 mg softgel 1x/day)
potassium gluconate powder (2-3 tsp per day spread over the day in meals and drinking water)
Benazepril (10 mg 2 times per day)

Triamterene/HCTZ (diuretic for Meniere’s) – take one 37.5/25 mg capsule on 2 of 3 days
Evoxac (for Sjogrens syndrome) 30 mg 2x/day
lemon bioflavonoids (700 mg/day for Meniere’s)
vitaman E (400 IU/day)
Elan multivitamins with anti-oxidants (1/day)

I am probably going to try one more round of anti-arrythmics after talk with EP#1 tomorrow, then maybe get an ablation at CC this fall. Choices will likely be Multaq at 400 mg 2x/day (I already tried at half dose 200 mg 2x/day for a month back in March before trying supplements and it did not help) or Tikosyn, which requires 3 days in hospital to get the dose right, as it can cause arrythmia.

Any thoughts on:

Why the Mg/K supplements seemed to have quit working?

On Multaq (full dose) vs Tikosyn?

On a round of Tikosyn vs going direct to ablation?

Regards,
Gary

Others may comment differently, but for me, the more interesting question is, Why did the supplements work so quickly for you? That is what seems more surprising/unusual for me than that they "stopped working".

For me, it took a couple months of supplementation before I started to see results, and then several more months before I could say I was mostly free of ectopics. In fact, I almost lost faith in the supplements BEFORE they started to work. Once they did, then I was sold. I only took a much simpler protocol, btw, because I didn't want to overly complicate things and because I tend to be a minimalist on interventions. I took Mg, K, and taurine. I also took some iodine supplementation on advise of a naturopath. Also, at first I took little K, then more after several months.

So, just a suggestion, but maybe you need to give it more time to see the full benefit of the supplements?

Robert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Others may comment differently, but for me, the
> more interesting question is, Why did the
> supplements work so quickly for you? That is what
> seems more surprising/unusual for me than that
> they "stopped working".
>
> For me, it took a couple months of supplementation
> before I started to see results, and then several
> more months before I could say I was mostly free
> of ectopics. In fact, I almost lost faith in the
> supplements BEFORE they started to work. Once
> they did, then I was sold...
>
> So, just a suggestion, but maybe you need to give
> it more time to see the full benefit of the
> supplements?

Thanks, Robert, I appreciate your perspective on this. It seemed odd to me as well that I would respond so fast, given that it is tissue concentration that likely matters most. However, the response was very real (and I am very thankful for it!).

Before discovering this forum and Mg supplementation, I had been taking daily Airborne (an over-the-counter immune booster) as someone here had a cold I wanted to avoid. I noticed that if I was having ectopics when I took the Airborne, they would stop, and I would have no more for about 6 hrs. Then I noticed a couple times during afib episodes, when I took the Airborne, the episode resolved within a half hr. This got me investigating its ingredients - Mg was one of them, and later reading on this forum made me think it would help me. So I started using the recommended Mg (Dr Best). I started each supplement type one at a time to monitor effect. I had not read about titrating up the Mg dose at the time (oops), so the first day I took 600 mg of Mg. This gave me diarrhea, so next day I only took about 60 mg. I had no AF on either day, after having 3-6 hrs daily for the week prior to that 600 mg dose. However, the third day I had a brief episode, so I started 200 mg that day (and had no more AF that day), then 400 mg the next day, 600 the next, then to 700 for a few days, then to 800 mg, which I have been on since that first week. For 4 weeks thereafter, I had no AF. (CORRECTION: I have only been taking HALF the above amounts - I misread the serving size. I take 4 tabs/day = 400 mg) I had ectopics, though, and whenever they got frequent and I thought AF was imminent, I would add another supplement, or otherwise change something and monitor effect.

So maybe the high early dosage is what I responded to, or maybe I was so deficient in Mg that just getting my serum level up was a big enough improvement.

I should mention that a day before I started the Mg, I had a gold tooth implant removed, as a long shot to see if it would help. I only had one day after this before starting Mg to determine effect of removal, and I had 1.5 hrs of AF that day compared to 3-6 hrs on previous days. But I started the Mg the next day, and all AF disappeared with that 600 mg first dose. So I did not wait around to see how much the implant removal alone might help.

I was pretty amazed at my response to Mg, but thankful. None of the other supplements were as noticeably effective, except recently with K. I started at 1 tsp/day (540 mg K), but when I went to 2-3 tsp per day, ectopics went away (for the most part). So, the AF I am having in the last couple weeks occurs without the warning that I used to get from the ectopics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2012 12:19PM by gehauser.

ge, why not stop the magnesium glycinate and start over with it, and ramp up slowly this time as you now know you should? I really think it might work for you the way it did for the rest of us.
PeggyM

I thought about that, but I thought the slow start was recommended to avoid bowel intolerance. I don't seem to have any problem tolerating the 800 mg/day Mg. Is there any therapeutic reason for a slower start than I took?

Gary - consider an accurate assessment of your dietary intake of all sources of sodium (salt).. if you add salt or eat any packaged, processed, restaurant foods, you get an abundance of added sodium which can definitely knock out your potassium. Complicating all is the potassium-sparing diuretic, but if you add up how much sodium you potentially ingest during one day, you may find that you are still low in potassium to meet that important 4:1 minimum ratio of K+/Na... This usually results in afib. Refer to the Introduction of CR 72.

Regarding the ramping up of magnesium... it takes considerable time to replete the intracellular stores of magnesium. If you haven't read the magnesium absorption report... you may find some useful points there on the topic. Some people tend to be magnesium wasters and even though they get infusions or injections, still manage to be regularly low magnesium so it can be an ongoing and very important repletion process. Your 800 may sound like a large dose when in reality, you may require much more than that. Check some of George N's reports on his Mg requirements as an example of individual requirement uniqueness.

Keep in mind that the body becomes depleted of essential nutrients over time and it can take a considerable amount of time to replete what's missing, so stick with your program and be patient.

Jackie


Conference Room Session 72
Potassium/Sodium Ratio in Atrial Fibrillation (February 7 - June 11, 2011)
[www.afibbers.org]

Magnesium Absorption
[www.afibbers.org]

The Strategy - What Metabolic Cardiology Means to Afibbers
[www.afibbers.org]

GeHauser:

You are taking a potassium sparing diuretic--Triamterene/HctZ, you have to be careful taking potassium supplements, read about the drug and the possible interaction between the two.

Liz

Jackie:

My current Na intake is about 1100 mg/day - I try to keep it under 1000 mg/day (goal) to minimize Meniere's vertigo attacks. Based on my nutrition software, my K intake is around 10,000 mg/day, not counting the 1500mg supplemental. So I think my K/Na intake is more than fine.

Thanks for the Mg notes and references - I will look into and absorb what I can.

Elizabeth:

Thanks. Yes, my diuretic is K-sparing, but it sheds my K nonetheless - my blood tests show this. I have discussed my K supplementation with my inner ear Dr (neurotologist) and he is good with it. The diuretic is cross-purposes with my supplementation for afib issues but when I cut back on the diuretic, I start having vertigo episodes due to the Meniere's. Neurotologist would rather me supplement K than cut back on the diuretic.

Gary - thanks for your reply. Your K:Na ratio looks good and I'm glad your neurologist endorses the supplementing of potassium so you can manage the AF.

You probably know this, but in holistic medical circles (assuming that acoustic neuroma has been ruled out),
--Meniere’s is thought to be caused by a virus…
--some find there is an association with Lyme disease as a co-infection and test to rule out the presence of that bacteria
--some think it is a sensitivity to environmental toxins
--still others think that it is a gluten sensitivity… since they find their patients improve dramatically after being totally gluten-free permanently.. still others say it’s gluten plus eggs and dairy sensitivities.
--one caveat is to be sure to rule out glucose handling dysfunction…as in undiagnosed Type 2 diabetes
--others try cranial sacral adjustments and find success especially when a dysfunction of the Tempromandibular Joint (TMJ) is ruled out and/or treated.

Lots to consider from the holistic view that may not be considered by the neurologist.

The homeopathic remedy BHI Heel - Vertigoheel.is equivalent to Meclizine, The AMA even published that.

Knowing what we know about the potency and ability of the right type of nanoparticle silver, MesoSilver from Purest Colloids, giving that a try is certainly an easy, readily-available option and if there is a bacterial or virual cause that hasn't been detected, it will definitely take care of that quite rapidly.

Vertigo is not fun. Sorry you are suffering.

Jackie

My head spins just thinking about it.

Murray L

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Tikosyn uptake Dec 2011 500ug b.i.d. NSR since!
Herein lies opinion, not professional advice, which all are well advised to seek.

Wow, I have some good news to report.

I finally realized I had only been taking 400 mg/day magnesium instead of 800 (misread serving size), I started increasing it 100 mg every 4 days. I am currently at 700 mg/day and all afib has stopped. I am also having very few ectopics, and no longer is eating a moderate meal enough to stimulate afib.

So the magnesium seems to be working again for me.