To all you experienced folk, have a question!

What does this mean and why is this the case, "There is no indication that vagal LAF involves any heart abnormality and vagal LAF rarely if ever develops into a permanent condition." I have identified that the three episodes I have had the past couple years are all Vagal and Im so scared that this is going to progress..........I guess I am just depressed and like most its the unknown that worries me.I did a lot of reading the past week and my vigorous excercise and cardio (most of my life) may have played a role in this. I hate knowing that I should cut back on this because it really is a passion of mine. My resting heart rate is always in the low to mid 40's and I know thats below normal. I have literally become OCD over this the past couple months. I check my heart rate throughout the day with my IPhone app.......and I become anxious at night when I eat or when I get ready to bed.

Randy

Randy, I know what you mean. I am a vagal LAFer. Started off with vagal syncope due to food issues, have eliminated so many foods, yet my syncope became afib and my afib episodes keep increasing in frequency, sometimes every night, and am actually afraid to go to bed sometimes, afraid to get up to the bathroom in the middle of the night which often triggers afib, and am generally just sick of it. At least the episodes are not as violent as they used to be, but even so, I am fearful of it. I am always afraid that the flec. is not going to work.... and I shouldn't take it anyway because of kidney problems. My pulse oximeter keeps wearing out its batteries.

Randy,

My vagal afib went from paroxysmal to persistant in 2 months. It was every two weeks ish for 6-9 hours. After 2 1/2 months I converted it with flecainide and started my electrolyte program. I've only had about 10 episodes in the 7 1/2 years since. They all converted quickly with flec.

I also quit doing endurance activity, though I'm still pretty active and fit.

George

Randy -

"Vagally mediated AF" occurs when the vagus nerve neurotransmitter acetylcholine (ACh) inhibits sodium / potassium pumps activity to a point where cardiac muscle cells' voltage becomes too low to maintain adequate cell refractory duration. Two solutions:

1) stimulate Na/K pump activity so that ACh can't lower cell voltage too far. Do this nutritionally by assuring dietary potassium intake is on the order of 4 times that of sodium. (see CR 72 [www.afibbers.org])

2) or use an 'anticholinergic' drug such as propantheline bromide to inhibit ACh (see GeorgeN's topic immediately below.)

That's my view but I'll welcome being shown otherwise.

Erling

PS. In general, anything that inhibits Na/K pumps activity should be avoided, e.g.:

-- all things fluoridated, e.g. water, tooth paste, etc.
-- digoxin / digitalis.
-- magnesium deficiency.
-- ATP fuel deficiency
-- and of course $tatin$ which inhibit synthesis of Coenzyme Q10 thereby inhibiting ATP synthesis and all cell functions dependent upon ATP such as the myriad Na/K pumps, and cell magnesium uptake pumps because in order for ATP to release its energy it must have magnesium along (Mg-ATP) . . .

etc. etc.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2012 07:50PM by Erling.

Hi Randy,

." I have identified that the three episodes I have had the past couple years are all Vagal.

Three episodes over the last couple of year may possibly be considered normal though this obviously depends on how long and how dibilitating the episodes were.

I was once on a boat with some good company where some of the guys were doing a bit of diving in Subic bay in the Philippines and one of the divers, an American guy, came up within the first few minutes not feeling too well, he said he felt terrible. Thinking he would sort himself out shortly I carried on taking care of the kids swimming around the boat etc. After a while I saw him still sat there looking totally miserable so I told him to check his pulse and the best way to do was to find it just in front of his ear. He did so and said his pulse was alternating between very fast and normal, classic Afib. I asked him if he had had it before and he said he may have had it a year back but he never thought to check his pulse. Last I heard he never had it again in the time I knew him.

I also knew another guy from work - a Canadian - who trained in the same gym as me and one day he came to work and said that the previous evening he had to leave the gym as his heart rate went crazy on his heart rate monitor and he felt absolutly drained, it lasted for the rest of the evening apparently. I explained how Afib feels and he said that was spot on. I worked with him for a further 12 months and it never happened again.

When in Bordeaux Dr Jais told me everyone gets irregular heart beats - I presume PACs & PVCs - and if he were to put an Holter Meter on everyone in working in the hospital they would all be miss firing to different degrees.

Now that doesn't answer your problem as asked but it may help you understand that theres a good chance that anyone you see not feeling too well could easily be having a small run of Afib and never having a clue because they don't check their pulse, i.e. normal.
Try not too worry too much we are not atomic clocks.

Barry G.

News Physiol. Sci. • Volume 15 • August 2000 [physiologyonline.physiology.org]

Isoform-Specific Regulation of the Na+-K+ Pump in Heart
R. T. Mathias, I. S. Cohen, J. Gao, and Y. Wang
Department of Physiology and Biophysics and Institute of Molecular Cardiology,
State University of New York at Stony Brook.

Interesting quotes:

"Activation of the parasympathetic nervous system causes the release of acetylcholine (ACh) in the vicinity of cardiac myocytes. ACh binds to the muscarinic ACh receptor (ACh-R) to generally reduce heart rate and cardiac output."

"Those of us who were educated after the dark ages when digital computers did not exist but after the enlightened age of Windows were taught about logic circuits. These circuits are constructed by the interconnections of and, not and, or, and nor gates. There are some remarkable similarities between the manner in which the cell computes its responses and these logic circuits. For example, voltage shifted IP1 = (Ca2+) and (PKA); basal IP1 = (not Ca2+) and (not PKA); inhibited IP1 = (not Ca2+) and (PKA). Going back one step, PKA = (β-R) and (not ACh-R), and the logic circuit for Ca2+ is even more elaborate, with the response of IP1 probably being part of one feedback control loop. Thus each of our cells is not only a miniature biochemical factory, it is also a miniature computer. The logic gates within a cell are the proteins that comprise the signal transduction cascades. Because each cascade generally involves a number of steps, it is relatively easy for a cell to reprogram its response when confronted with chronic changes in demands and for different cell types to program different responses to the same environment."
================================================================

From The Biology of Belief by (quantum) cell biologist Bruce Lipton, PhD, Chapter 3 The Magical Membrane [www.amazon.com]

"The fact that the cell membrane and a computer chip are homologues means that it is both appropriate and instructive to better fathom the workings of the cell by comparing it to a personal computer... computers and cells are programmable. The point: a cell is a "programmable chip" whose behavior and genetic activity are primarily controlled by environmental signals, not genes."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2012 08:24AM by Erling.

Erling - in your response to Randy, you mentioned avoiding anything containing fluoride.

I presume this is because of the iodine competition. Then would propantheline bromide be acceptable/beneficial as bromide also inhibits iodine?

Wikipedia says one side effect (adverse effect) of PB is tachycardia.


Jackie

.

Hi Jackie,

The main concern with fluoride as regards AF is its direct inhibition of Na/K pump activity, also of other pumps such as Ca-ATPase, probably all P-type ATPases [en.wikipedia.org]. See for example:
Inhibition of the Na,K-ATPase by Fluoride Parallels with its Inhibition of the Sarcoplasmic Reticulum Ca-ATPase.
Alexander J. Murphy and J. Craig Hoover
Department of Biochemistry, School of Dentistry, University of the Pacific, San Francisco, California
The Journal of Biological Chemistry 1992 [www.jbc.org]
==============================

Which brings up thoughts about fluorine and bromine displacing iodine in the thyroid molecule, and probably substituting for iodine throughout the body. The molecule Flecainide has six atoms of fluorine (F) [en.wikipedia.org], and the molecule Propantheline bromide has one atom of bromine (Br) [en.wikipedia.org] but do they dissociate as free ions to be of concern?
Here's an interesting bit about bromated flour:

Potassium bromate [en.wikipedia.org]

Potassium bromate has been banned from use in food products in the EU, Canada, Nigeria, Brazil[3], Peru and some other countries. It was banned in Sri Lanka in 2001[4] and China in 2005. In the United States, it has not been banned. The FDA sanctioned the use of bromate before the Delaney clause of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act -- which bans potentially carcinogenic substances -- went into effect in 1958, so it is more difficult for it to now be banned. Instead, since 1991 the FDA has urged bakers to voluntarily stop using it. In California a warning label is required when bromated flour is used.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2012 05:20PM by Erling.

Jackie,

"Wikipedia says one side effect (adverse effect) of PB is tachycardia. "

This is why it is used - it is a vagolytic. That being said, one wants to use the smallest dose possible.

George

George - thanks. Got it. - sounds like it could be a risky drug for some people.
Jackie

Along with Randy I'm new to a fib and not particularly happy about it. My first episode was 15 years ago ... then nothing until 8 months ago. I had 3 episodes and then nothing for 3 months. But over the past 4+ months I'm having an a fib episode every few days and almost always at night (vagal LAF). I'm 58 years old and exercise 2 - 2.5 hours every day, 5-6 days/week. I'm in great shape and enjoy most every day ... except those when I wake up in the middle of the night with a fib and can't get back to sleep. I'm now on 50 mg of metoprolol 1X/day and 50 mg of flecainide 2X/day. The average duration of an episode pre-"fleck" was 10.8 hours. Post fleck it's down to 3.25 hours. I drink several glasses of Ultima following a workout and take 1 multivitamin and 1 omega-3 each day.

Anyway, I have a question for GeorgeN. Exactly what is your electrolyte program? And, do you use fleck as a pill-in-a-pocket or do you take it every day? Relative to the 12 episodes that I've had in the past 30 days, I could live with 10 episodes over 7.5 years.

Many thanks in advance for your reply.

Paul