Veggie Pac Tamer/New Here/Taurine/Fast Heart Beat

Hello,

This is my first time on this forum. I am a 62 yr. old woman with lone mixed AF. I am on 100 mg of Flecainide twice a day and 25 mg of Metoprolol tartrate as needed for tachycardia. My last AF episode was about a month ago. It lasted 24 hrs. and was very scary. The Flecainide and met tart didn't do anything to help the attack. My arms and legs were extremely weak and I couldn't get off the couch except for a couple minutes, then I felt faint. After the attack, it took another couple days for my arms and legs to return to normal.

I have read The Strategy Report, FAQs, and many entries on this website. I am so thankful that I found this group of caring Afibbers, and want to thank Hans for answering my emails.

I am currently taking 200 mg of potassium glyconate with meals 4 times a day and drinking Trader Joe's Low Sodium Veggie Garden Patch drink that contains 500 mg of potassium. That gives me a total of 1300 mg of potassium. I am taking 250 mg of Jigsaw slow release dimagnesium malate (albion) at breakfast and 400 mg of magnesium glycinate at bedtime (to help me sleep as well as help my heart) for a total of 650 mg. I'm also taking 100 mg of coenzyme Q10 at breakfast and dinner (200 mg total) and 500 mg of l-carnitine at breakfast and dinner (1000 mg total). I also take 1000 mg of vitamin C at bedtime, 250 mg of quercetin at lunch, and 750 mg of curcumin at lunch. I take a multi-vitamin at breakfast, and just added 25 mg of P5P after reading an article on that on this website. I don't use any caffeine and eat very little sugar or processed foods. Is there anything else I should take or should I add more to any amounts of these?

Despite all this, lately my heart has been racing and sometimes I get PVCs. It is especially bad around 4-7AM. It can go anywhere from 105 bpm to 78 bpm throughout the day. If it gets over 90, I usually take a metoprolol tartrate 25 mg pill, but I'd rather not take it if possible. I've read that it depletes melatonin (and I already have chronic insomnia) and depletes co enzyme Q10. What else can I do?

I tried taking 1000 mg of taurine at bedtime (also to help me sleep and to help my heart) but it seems to make me jittery and agitated. Has anyone else had this problem? I've stopped taking it for now but I know it is one of the three essential supplements I should be taking.

Also, I am on an anti-fungal diet and am not supposed to have much in the way of fruit. Has anyone made a recipe for Hans' pac tamer drink that uses vegetables instead of fruit? If so, I'd love to get the recipe.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Windstar (Nancy)

Hello Nancy,

Thank you for the detaled description of your Afib woes - it is very helpful. My personal 7+ year Afib trip was brought to an end ten years ago by applying the principles of Metabolic Cardiology before the term was even coined! Cardiologist Stephen Sinatra earned great gratitude from his cardiac patients by improving their heart's energy (ATP) production, which sounds very much like what you've described:-- a low cardiac / whole-body cellular energy deficiency, likely accounting for your arrhythmia..

Dr. Sinatra labeled his ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) enhancing 'nutriceuticals' The Awesome Foursome -- magnesium, Coenzyme Q10, L-carnitine, and D-ribose. In his book The Sintra Solution - Metabolic Cardiology* he calls D-ribose "the missing link", as it was not available as a supplement until maybe ten years ago. Detailed science about D-ribose forms Chapter 6 of his book: D-Ribose: The Sugar of Life - The Missing Link.. It seems quite likely that D-ribose is your "missing link". It is readily available from iHerb.

For now, here's Dr. Sinatra's daily protocol for 'Intermittent Atrial Fibrillation':

~ "Multivitamin / mineral foundation program" with at least 3 to 4 grams of fish oil (Omega 3 fats).
~ Coenzyme Q10: 180 to 360 mg.
~ L-carnitine: 1,000 to 2,000 mg.
~ D-ribose: 7 to 10 grams.
~ Magnesium: 400 to 800 mg.

Best wishes!

Erling.

* [www.amazon.com]

Nancy - When attempting to determine what supplements work best for each individual, experience has shown that we have to do a lot of 'tinkering' not only with the basic supportive nutrients, but the dosages and often elminating some that are most commonly recommended.

Erling offers the excerpt from Dr. Sinatra... and I'd like to point out that when I was an afibber, I followed the general guidelines for supplement support and learned that I was unable to take carnitine. It made my arrhythmia worse. Perhaps it was because at the time, ribose was not yet available and neither was the suggestion to take higher doses of CoQ10. You might experiment with lowering or eliminating your carnitine.

Nevertheless, the point is... you'll have to 'tinker' to see what works in your body. We are all in various stages of age, health and nutrient adequacy. Diet is a huge influence and what you take in daily that sabottages the good nutrients may be a very telling result. Just be sure you don't eat a starchy carb or sugar-laden meal at night or later, a snack, because it can bring on a hypoglycemic reaction in the early morning hours. These foods deplete magnesium and potassium and so are counterproductive to an attempt maintain a storehouse of the essentials that help keep your heart calm. Try for a protein snack about 2 hours before bedtime to see if that helps stabilize and carry through to the morning.

Magnesium at bedtime is good. Leave the taurine for during the day. You should take all of your CoQ10 in the morning with a meal that contains some fat to facilitate absorption. It takes 6 hours to become active so if you take it later in the day, it can be stimulating and possibly interfere with sleep.

There is no reason you can't do a drink with all veggies... it's actually healthier than using fruit because it lowers the insulin spikes which is what everyone should try to do regularly.

As for chronic insomnia... do you have a lot exposure to cordless phones, cell phones, wireless equipment... iPads etc? That's the leading cause in the country today for insomnia... the electromagnetic radiation exposure. Do a search on this website for the word Electropollution... there are several posts that discuss this current dilemma and health problem.

Jackie

Supplements that help the majority of people don't help everyone. I found L-Carnitine, Taurine & Q10 all caused me fast beat/ PAC problems.

The only way to be sure what works for you is introduce them one at a time and wait to see what the effect is before adding another one. I know it's hard to be patient in this way but it will enable you to work out the regimen that works for you.

Sam

Sam,

Yours is by no means an isolated experience. Some afibbers do find that supplementing with taurine and coenzyme Q10 makes things worse. We are all an experiment of one!

Hans

Nancy:

I find that Magnesium helps me, but not Potassium supplements---I tried taking potassium supplements and it gave me short runs of afib, I get my potassium from food. Have you had your blood work done to see what your potassium level is, that is important, potassium is one electrolyte that you should be careful with.

Liz

Hi again, Nancy -

This will explain the function of D-ribose, and why in my opinion it's fairly certain that ribose is your "missing link". It's definitely missing from your supplements according to Dr.Sinatra's protocal for AF (my reply above). Ten grams of ribose / day costs less than a dollar. (iHerb: D-Ribose powder, Healthy Origins, 10.6 oz (300 g) $27.98 = a bit less than 10 cents per gram)

Simply put, adenosine tri-phosphate (ATP) is to our body as gasoline is to a car. ATP is the fuel that all cells run on. Being continuously consumed, ATP must be continuously replaced. When consumption exceeds replacement the performance of cells decreases. The symptoms of ATP shortfall will therefor include tiredness and weakness throughout the body, and poor or deranged performance of the heart - the body's major consumer of ATP fuel.

In healthy cells the ATP content remains essentially constant. The vast majority of ATP is recycled from its spent form ADP (adenosine di-phosphate) by adding a new phosphate molecule to the intact ribose backbone. There is always a small amount of ATP being lost from the cell by leakage which must be replaced with new ATP. New ATP requires new ribose which is synthesized within the cell, but at a very slow rate. If the rate of ATP loss from the cells exceeds the rate of new ATP / ribose synthesis, the increasing reduction of ATP causes the cells to falter and eventually die. In other words, ATP loss begets further ATP loss, and all cells and systems suffer the consequence of energy deprivation, not just the heart.

This process of ATP loss and eventual cellular "energy disaster" without sufficient ribose available is described in detail in Dr. Sinatra's book on the science of cardiac metabolism..

Source:
The Sinatra Solution - Metabolic Cardiology [www.amazon.com]
Chapter 3: ATP: The Miracle of Life
Chapter 6: D-ribose: The Sugar of Life - The Missing Link



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2012 07:02PM by Erling.

Thanks everyone for all your advice. It sounds like what works for one person can be a problem for others. I guess I will have to back up and take out some of the newer supplements and see how that works.

It sounds like I should definitely try the ribose. What time of day should I take it, with meals or without, and how much at a time?

Also, when should I take the carnitine? With a meal or without? I have been taking it for many months so doubt that it is causing the problem.

I will switch my Q10 to my morning meal and move my taurine to day time. I have also been taking Q10 (thanks to Dr. Blaylock's newsletter) for a couple years so that most likely is not the problem. I did stop the taurine four days ago and still have rapid heart beats so that is most likely not the problem either.

As to a snack before bedtime, I have been eating a piece of rice bread toasted with no sodium almond butter on it. Do you think the rice bread has too much carb?

I don't think my insomnia is from electromagnetic radiation exposure as I don't use a cell phone and we have no wireless devices in our home because we are very aware of the problems they cause. I've had insomnia off and on for the past 25 years, but it really got bad about a year ago. About six months ago, it got to the point where I was only getting 2 hrs. sleep. In August I got very ill and my doctor thought it was the flu, but it didn't go away. I had shooting pains in my arms and legs, ached all over, had jaw stiffness, joint pain, pain in my breast bone, headaches, tingling in my face and head. By researching this on the Internet, I found out that I had silicone poisoning from my 34 yr. old breast implants. I had them removed on Sept. 9, along with three lymph nodes, by Dr.Susan Kolb in Atlanta (I live in CA). She wrote a book on how important it is to take them out right and how to detox after. She is certified in holistic medicine besides being a plastic surgeon. She said my insomnia and heart palpitations were most likely from the silicone poisoning. Even though the implants were removed, they had ruptured (most likely years before) and some silicone may still be in my body causing problems. I started to take her supplements to detox but had to stop because I wanted to withdraw from the sleeping med, Klonopin, that I had taken for 8 weeks to get some sleep before and after surgery. It has taken all these months to slowly taper off the Klonopin (it is wicked stuff ). I just finished my taper on Feb. 14. I had hoped that my sleep and AF would improve after getting the implants removed and getting off the Klonopin, but so far neither is true. I have not started the detox program again as I want to try to deal with my sleep issues and AF first and get that stablized; otherwise I won't know what supplement is causing what.

I started working with an integrative medicine doctor a few weeks ago, Dr. Saunders. He had me do a urine and saliva NeuroScience sleep neurotransmitter test. The results were off the chart! Of the 11 sleep neurotransmitters test, only 1 was in normal range, that was creatinine. My epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, DOPAC, serotonin, glycine, GABA, glutamate, PEA, and histamine were dramatically elevated, sometimes three times more than they should be. Dr. Saunders didn't know what to make of this because so many were extremely high. He decided that he would increase my progesterone level from 300 mg to as much as it would need to get me to sleep. He thinks that the silicone is binding the progesterone and not allowing it to work. As of last night, I am taking 600 mg and got 5 1/2 hours sleep, which is amazing for me. The test also showed my cortisol to be in normal range, but my melatonin was only 5.6 when it should be 25-50. He feels that these elevated neurotransmitters are definitely affecting my AF as well as my sleep. However, he doesn't know the cause (perhaps silicone or Klonopin) but he doesn't know where to go from here. Any suggestions?

Thanks again for all your help.
Nancy

Nancy

You asked "Has anyone made a recipe for Hans' pac tamer drink that uses vegetables instead of fruit? If so, I'd love to get the recipe"

I take supplements to dampen down the thousands of PACs I get every day post successful ablation 9 years ago. I found Hans's PAC Tamer too high in calories so I make my own low calorie version, which has no fruit, as follows:

4 teaspoons potassium gluconate powder
½ teaspoon taurine powder
2 scoops D-Ribose powder
150 - 250mls Waller Water (amount varies to keep me within bowel tolerance)
Water to make this up to 500mls

When the powder has all dissolved I add 4 tablespoons of Honegar, which is a mixture of apple cider vinegar and honey.

I drink a third of this 'potion' morning, afternoon and evening when I take the rest of my supplements, including chelated magnesium tablets and nattokinase. I had to do all the tinkering that other people mention until I found what was right for me.

Hope this is useful.

Gill

Nancy - I'm sending you an email shortly. Please check your incoming.

Jackie

Thanks Gill,

That's a great recipe! Using milligram quantities, for Nancy's sake, and ours, would you please convert 2 scoops of D-ribose powder? Also please check my numbers?

4 teaspoons potassium gluconate powder = 2,160 mg.
½ teaspoon taurine powder = 1,500 mg.
2 scoops D-Ribose powder = ?

The sugar ribose surely is "the missing link" in the cardiac metabolism / rhythm puzzle, as Dr. Sinatra says He recommends 7 to 10 grams per day for Afib, up to 15 grams per day for a severely energy-starved heart, such as in congestive heart failure, also 15 grams per day for "fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, or mitochondrial cytopathies".

Erling

Erling

Your numbers don't seem quite right. Can you translate them with this information from the side of the tubs?

1 teaspoon potassium gluconate powder = 3.48g
1/4 teaspoon Taurine powder = 675mg
1 scoop D-Ribose powder = 5 grams. (The scoop comes with the powder.)

Gill

Gill,

Thanks for checking! The NOW brand potassium gluconate powder has 1 tsp = 3.48 grams, but the potassium amount = 540 mg / tsp. My Life Extension taurine powder is a bit different at 750 mg / 1/4 tsp.

4 teaspoons potassium gluconate powder @ 540 mg potassium / tsp = 2,160 mg potassium.
1/2 teaspoon taurine powder @ 675 mg /1/4 tsp = 1.350 mg taurine.
2 scoops D-Ribose powder @ 5 grams / scoop = 10 grams ribose.

The 10 grams of ribose is a big help with cardiac energy according to the proven science on ATP.

Erling.

Liz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nancy:
>
> I find that Magnesium helps me, but not Potassium
> supplements---I tried taking potassium supplements
> and it gave me short runs of afib, I get my
> potassium from food. Have you had your blood work
> done to see what your potassium level is, that is
> important, potassium is one electrolyte that you
> should be careful with.
>
> Liz


Fascinating. Truly "an experiment of one"! In my case, Potassium seems to be a major key in maintaining NSR while on TIKOSYN! Not that I go into aFib but my body tells me who is in charge with a short period of "flip flops". A gram of Potassium and it settles right down within minutes (always under an hour... usually about 20 minutes or so). As to keeping an eye on serum potassium levels, I have bloodwork done every two weeks by my family physician mainly to monitor INR and Creatinine level (and clearance) as I am on TIKOSYN. At the same time, as I am supplementing with Potassium, we check the serum Potassium with a view to keeping it in the 4.7ish range.