What do the docs think of supplements??

Hi Everyone,

Okay, I have started the magnesium and potassium, a bit of taurine, getting ready to add the Co10 and others. I am scheduled for my third ablation in just under a month, and now taking a bunch of meds I hate to take. Just being a critical thinker, here. My question to you is this: if supplements are the answer, why don't the doctors recommend this first, before ablation and/or medications??? Does anyone have an EP that suggests this route?

Tara

Tara

I take supplements because I get many many ectopic beats. They used to be very uncomfortable but when I take magnesium, potassium and taurine I don't feel them at all.

My EP knows that I take them, is happy with it and makes a note of them in my records. He says that he can't make any comment on their effectiveness because he has not seen any reliable evidence. To me this seems a reasonable attitude.

Gill (9 years of nsr since ablation in Bordeaux)

My cardio says if I feel supplements are working, use them, although he didn't suggest them.

Valli

As one doctor put it: Doctors are taught to treat a condition not to prevent it.

It just happens that I visited my cardio yesterday and this question came up. I explained to her that I had been "reading up" on Afib (being new to the diagnosis), and that I had begun implementing magnesium and potassium supplementation. Since my trigger is intense exercise (and nothing else), I was able to track the results of supplementation during scheduled exercise practices. I made the point that no AF episodes occurred during my practices over the intervening three week period while on these supps. She was very interested. She pointed that she had been considering these supps for her patients, anyway. My story just added more weight to the argument.

Comical flashback: When in '96 I mentioned magnesium to the cardiologist, without a word he got up and left the room, never to return. I had recently read chapter 9 Magnesium Deficiency and Cardiac Dysrhythmia in Dr. Mildred Seelig's astounding 1980 textbook Magnesium Deficiency in The Pathogenesis of Disease, and thought surely a Board Certified heart specialist would know all about this vital electrolyte that the heart needs in abundance in order to beat properly? - an essential nutrient that had been studied and published in journals for decades? - and just might be important in his patient's condition? Indeed, magnesium was the secret ingredient that got me out of trouble, permanently, six years later Maybe things are improving? - just don't hold your breath, but keep on studying and applying what has been known for a very long time.

The entire 500+ pages, fully referenced to studies as far back as the '30s, may be read at [mgwater.com] on Paul Mason's fabulous magnesium website mgwater.com

Erling

My Electrophysiologist would let me tqke magnesium and potassium but he said he has had no patients who have achieved good results with them. He did say some patients claim they were helped taking fish oil. If you google fish oil and wafarin you will see that fish oil could affect your INR reading so I'm not taking that.

I have found in the last 7 yrs. and 5 different EP's ... 2 actually prescribed MG & K for me... others its seems foreign.. however in the hospital many times they will request a blood test for this as many of the AFIB patients are low in both... my conversations with these EP's are limited to these two supplements... they are not interested what-so-ever in the others or even hearing about them. If you bring it up, you will be talking to yourself.

It is quite surprising to me their journals do not bring our opinions or findings from time to time... but then little money to be made in this area of the spectrum.

Tara,

When I'd been out of rhythm for 2 1/2 months, my EP recommended I stay out of rhythm as my afib HR was in the 70's. He said (over 7 years ago) that my case was not severe enough to justify ablation risks nor med risks. I suggested a "plan B." It was a) cardioversion, b) I would try to keep myself in NSR with an electrolyte supplement program I designed and c) he'd prescribe on-demand flecainide for the times that "b)" did not work. Amazingly, he accepted my proposal. It has worked well enough that I've only used the flec 8 or 9 time s in the intervening time and I've only been out of rhythm about 8 hours in the last 7 years.

Several years ago, I was backpacking with a friend who is a hand surgeon. I described my afib remission program:

about 2 grams of elemental potassium/day
4 grams of taurine/day
magnesium to bowel tolerance

His comment was that a bright, committed patient was needed to follow my program. He noted his own patient population was not filled with these kind of patients. He also said the FDA would never go for a study that included "magnesium to bowel tolerance."

In the "CYA" mentality of today's medicine (at least in the US), most practitioners are not going to suggest supplements as the "evidence" (double blind studies) just isn't there.

George

Hi Doug, and all -

So, in 7 years, 2 out of 5 EPs were a bit clued in - sorta. That sounds about right. Excuse me, I get on a rant roll - about the medical industry in general - and can't stop. Take a look at the first sentences in Chapter 9 of the 1980 textbook by Mildred Seelig, MD, MPH, referenced earlier [mgwater.com]

9. Magnesium Deficiency and Cardiac Dysrhythmia

9.1. Electrocardiographic Changes of Experimental Magnesium Deficiency

In the early subacute magnesium-deficiency study of Kruse et al. (1932)*, convulsions were produced in 86% of the rats by the 18th day, with death occurring after one or more convulsions in 93%. Tachycardia was manifest during the preconvulsive period, and bradycardia with marked arrhythmia just before the convulsions started. Greenberg and Tufts (1938)** confirmed these findings, and showed additionally that ECGs, taken while the rats were unconscious from the convulsive seizures, revealed a sinoauricular block, with occasional skipped and ventricular beats.

*Kruse HD, Orent ER, McCollum EV: Studies on magnesium deficiency in animals J Biol Chem 96:519-539, 1932.

**Greenberg D, Tufts B: The nature of magnesium tetany. Am J Physiol 121:416-423, 1938.

So, any chance we could collectively write something with a prayer of being published here, perhaps with a sympathetic EP collaborator:

[www.afibbers.org]

George

Interesting subject, everyone. I really appreciate your input. I will continue with the supplements, and hope it makes a difference.
Tara

To those that take the time to educate themselves in the broad sense of the word, serum levels of Magnesium, Potassium, Taurine and CoEnzymeQ10 are of interest. To the rest; well, my last cardiologist was into colonics I think. Truly a quack and we could not get out of there fast enough. Fortunately he gave us a referal to Southlake Health Sciences Centre and Drs. Verma and Khaykin. Dr. Verma had me back in NSR with TIKOSYN and a properly done Electrocardioversion in a blink once I got in to see him (the waiting list in Ontario is lengthy but almost everything is free, including the TIKOSYN for residents). I am at the 7 week mark and still in NSR.

Here's the interesting part. The MD's at Southlake were reasonably happy with my supplementation and agreeable to my continuing it immediately after TIKOSYN uptake. There was a comment passed that my serum levels of Magnesium and Potassium were unusual as most patients coming in for aFib were low and they often hung a bag of Magnesium and Potassium while they began the TIKOSYN and prior to and ECV, especially the Magnesium.

Another interesting tale.... I consume large amounts of Potassium rich Low Sodium V8. A beer cup holds about 2 grams of Potassium via V8! I also supplement tablets and powder and my GP watches my serum levels every 2 - 3 weeks. If my Potassium drops I find that I skip beats or have PAC's or PVC's... not sure which but I can see them on my pulse oximeter and can surely feel them. They don't last very long... a large cup of V8 and they are gone in a hour.

We have also taken to drinking a mineral water from Germany that is rich in Magnesium although I don't know how it affects my IC levels of same, etc. It is the only mineral water that I have found that contains significant Magnesium... sufficient to be added to the labelling.

There is no "hope" about it. That's how I felt on Day 1 almost two years ago. Today, you would have to tear the supplements away from me. Although I did have a serious bladder/prostate infection in December, 2 weeks before starting TIKOSYN, I have not had a cold since I began supplementing- despite being surrounded by kids that were dripping like faucets and coughing up a storm. I ran out of CoEnzyme Q10 Ubiquinol some weeks ago and I definitely knew it was missing. Walgreens had it on sale this past week. $10 for 30 capsules and a $10 rebate coupon. Had to buy one at a time. Unfortunately they did not have much as the shelf was cleaned off by someone every time they put any out. So I will continue to maintain my 3 month rolling window supply of the big 4 supplements (and the others too).

Murray

Could you tell us more about this mineral water, Murray. What's it called; who makes it etc.

Thanks

Sam

Doug - definitely an economic consideration..for all the obvious reasons.

The name of the mineral water is GEROLSTEINER Carbonated Natural Mineral Water, Bottled at the source Gerolstein with natural carbonation added - Low Sodium. High in Calcium and Magnesium.

www.gerolsteiner.com

Gerolsteiner Brunnen GmbH & Co. KG, 54567 Gerolstein, Germany.

Bottle is dated... that is, it has an expiry date on it.

per 500mL:
Sodium 60 mg
Potassium 5mg

There is no specific quantity of Calcium and Magnesium but it does state "% Daily Value" and
Calcium 15%
Magnesium 20%

This is the only mineral water or bottled water that I found on the shelf, quite by accident, that even lists Calcium, Sodium and Magnesium content. I believe that we may have obtained actual quantities of Magnesium doing a google search. I am going to search again and see if I can find the actual numbers.

I am concerned about the Sodium in it although at 60 mg. compared to what I have been seeing in various prepared food products seems low. We read labels religiously these days. Even the fresh chicken seems to have salt in it nowadays.

Murray

Am having trouble finding the numbers, except that it comes from a volcanic source, is pumped from 200M below ground (not from the water table per se) and is naturally carbonated.

AND it contains 2500 grams of minerals per Litre.

Still looking.

Murray

Murray - I would be cautious of drinking too much of this particular water because of the calcium content versus magnesium. Probably back in '02, we had a running discussion here about various bottled mineral waters and the evidence was that most were high in calcium and low in magneisum.... the exception was t Adobe Springs (California) which is high in magnesium and low in calcium.

I just checked the Gerosteiner content and it has 348 mg/liter calcium to only 108 mg/liter of magnesium...so you could call it "calcium" water rather than magnesium water. And BTW, sodium is 118 mg/liter

As mentioned in other posts, it's easy to make your own magnesium bicarbonate water at home and then you absolutely know you're getting magnesium with no interference from calcium. Why take chances?

[www.mineralwaters.org]

Jackie

> "AND it contains 2500 grams of minerals per Litre"

2500 mg = 0.1 oz of minerals / liter

(2500 grams = 5 1/2 lbs)

Another case of haste makes waste. Yes I did intend to type mg. I believe. Either that or I just parrotted their website information. Pity. I thought that perhaps I had found yet another source to add magnesium to my diet. Wasn't happy about the sodium content either to be honest. Thanks for taking the time to share; you are, as usual, always a wealth of information.

Interestingly, as an aside, wife has suffered with leg cramps for the past 30 years. She has begun supplementing with magnesium and sodium (but not to my extent) and guess what? The leg cramps have been gone for the past three days! The doctors had been giving her quinine to stop the cramping. (Treat the symptom, not the cause, right? Keeps the merry-go-round running.)

She is also more regular with regards to BM's due to the magnesium and hydration (she has started with 100mg at bedtime - I take 200mg. b.i.d.)

Thanks again for input folks. NSR is wonderful. We are praying that the TIKOSYN continues to work for at least a year or two permitting my left atrium to shrink to the point where I am a good candidate for catheter ablation. The cardiologist/EP did not do echo at 7 week checkup but is waiting for my 20 week checkup to do a battery of tests and see if the left atrium has shrunk.

In the meantime, I will continue to supplement with the blessing of two or three of my MD's and the pharmacologist in cardiology at Southlake.
Interesting to note that the nurse practitioner taking my history and the pharmacist wanted me to STOP supplementing immediately upon coming under their care. Bizarre.

> "... supplementing with magnesium and sodium". Really? Do you mean potassium?

That a lack of magnesium causes leg cramps, and that increasing magnesium allows muscles to relax, is such old knowledge (in antiquity, but well understood and documented since at least the '30s) that... well... you know...

I don't think it is bizarre Murray. Medics ihere in England are forced to practise what they call evidence-based medicine. Since there is no money to be made from supplements no double blind trials are done, so there is no evidence.

Gill

Hi Gill - belive it or not, there are a more than a few clinical studies that do show benefits of certain nutritional supplements.. An outstanding one that comes to mind is successfully using Ubiquinol for cardiomyopathy/heart failure. Not nearly as manystudies out there as as needed for those that insist on looking at study data, but it's a start in an uphill battle to prove that nutrients address the core deficiency causes of illness. That's a bitter pill for 'modern' medicine to swallow. No matter how hard "they" resist breaking out of the entrenched dogma, the fact remains we are desgined to run on nutrients.

Jackie

In future, every time I say "sodium" I really mean "Potassium" and am either tired or having a brain freeze. Thanks for pointing this out yet again to me. I have no idea why I keep typing sodium.

Wife is quite happy... the Potassium (pretty sure it's the potassium) has eliminated her leg cramping which she has suffered from for years and for which she was prescribed Quinine. The quinine, as a matter of interest, is expensive here and NOT covered by government or private health care prescription plans. We have always paid for it out of our pocket. The Potassium (NOT sodium) is cheap like dirt and besides, we like the low sodium V8 and Mott's Garden Cocktail.

Must find out if Mott's Clamato Juice is also high in potassium (I am betting it is) as we love Bloody Caesar's (virgin) with the rim around the glass and the sprig of celery. Yumm.

Murray - I just Googled Clamato and one source indicates:
In one cup (8 oz)

Sodium 800 mg
Potassium 0
Carbohydrates 11
Sugars 10

Not a healthy option.