Question for George regarding magnesium intake

Hi George,

I've been reading your information over the years regarding your high intake of magnesium and I've really appreciated all of your insight and info. I've also been taking relatively high levels of magnesium (DermaMag+mag glycinate). My holistic MD has brought up an analogy several times of a "bucket with holes in the bucket-I keep pouring magnesium into the bucket and it's leaking out the holes in the bucket just as quickly." He keeps suggesting that I find and plug the holes in the bucket. I know that you have given a lot of thought to this issue of magnesium.

Do you have ideas on what the "holes in the bucket" might be in your specific case (eg. genetic, malabsorption, kidney impairment,etc.)?
Do you have ideas on what the "holes in the bucket" might be for people in general?

Thanks for your help,

Leo

Leo,

Excellent questions. I wish I had good answers. My approach has been to "turn the hose on" enough to overcome the holes in the bucket. I have a lone affibber collegue who takes 5-6 grams elemental mag (in the form of di-magnesium malate) to keep himself in remission.

As I recently posted [www.afibbers.org] antibiotics and an intestinal flue recently changed my bowel tolerance. However, it is back to near normal now.

As I recall, Jackie had posted about trans-fats mucking up the ability for cells to absorb mag. However I've eaten a pretty "clean" diet for many years.

I have other questions. Why was I fine for 48 or 9 years & then I needed to add buckets of mag to stay in rhythm?

The bartter people have thought about this too [barttersite.org] This link is by the late Herbert Mansmann MD. I have a lot of respect for his work. He was a retired pediatrician with Type II diabetes. He cured his diabetic neuropathy with a year of 20 g elemental mag/day. I've posted his story elsewhere such as <[www.afibbers.org];

I don't really identify anything on the the barttersite list that applies to me. Perhaps hyperaldosteronism, but I've not been tested.

George

Thanks for the reply George, I'll take a look at the sites that you referenced.

Leo

[emedicine.medscape.com]

"The total body magnesium content of an average adult is 25 g, or 1000 mmol. Approximately 60% of the body's magnesium is present in bone, 20% is in muscle, and another 20% is in soft tissue and the liver. Approximately 99% of total body magnesium is intracellular or bone-deposited, with only 1% present in the extracellular space. "

So, 25gx0.40= 10g in muscle & liver. If I'm taking 2.5 g/day, that is 25% of the mag in muscle & liver. For my above mentioned friend, it is 50+%. These are huge %'s, in my opinion. If my stools aren't lose, I've got to be absorbing into the blood. The obvious location of the hole is kidney excretion. The bid question is why.

George

One area I've not fully explored is that of heavy metals. Here are some posts:

<[www.afibbers.org];
<[www.afibbers.org];
<[www.afibbers.org];

George- yes - transfats can clog cell receptors so magnesium can't enter and Candida overgrowth in the intestine can also block transport at the intestinal lumen area of transfer.

[www.afibbers.org] Link to report on magnesium absorption for Leo.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie and George, I will study those sites. I am currently taking 1600 mg/day of mag glycinate (up from 1200 mg/day) along with DermaMag over most of my body every other day. My red blood cell mag level was recently 5.7 (ref range 4.0-6.4) which had improved from 3.2 when I first started testing 2 years ago. Since My RBC level had almost doubled I thought I might be in pretty good shape, but I convinced my MD to do the Exatest (to see mag levels + my other electrolyte levels) and mag came in at 33.0 (ref range 33.9-41.0). The other electrolytes were very good. So even though I seem to have made some progress with mag, I'm still quite low. I talked to the people at Exatest and they said that my 33.0 was quite typical/average for the values that they see.

Leo

Jackie,

Logically, candida overgrowth is not the issue as we'd have low bowel tolerance if that were our problem. Au contraire. we can take in large quantities.

Leo,

As I recall my Exatest was in the order of 33.9. I never bothered to retest as I assumed my bowel tolerance would have decreased if my intracellular levels increased. As I recall, Erling did increase his up to near 41. It seems very difficult to do. Does your MD have any suggestions, since he's the MD. I think that expection you to come up with the holes and plugging them is a bit unrealistic, though it wouldn't stop me from trying.

Fortunately, magnesium is relatively inexpensive and I have no negative side effects from pushing large doses through (save from some loose stools from keeping myself on the edge). It is not the worst thing in the world. I just am very dillegent about keeping my regular dosing schedule.

George

Hi George,

My MD (holistic minded) thought initially that my low mag was related to sleep disturbances. I've discussed this with my wife and she has observed my sleep for years and she is convinced that I sleep soundly and comfortably with minimal snoring or breathing issues. He also thinks it could be related to stress as a mag waster. I don't feel particularly stressed, but that's hard to measure. I do try to meditate/relax periodically but it hasn't seemed to make a difference.

I don't mind taking the mag supplements, but I wonder if IV or injections would be a smart move. I'm not sure that my MD does this. Have you tried the shots?

Leo

I have not as it is inconvienent to go in regularly, though am not opposed. One other approach I've not tried is a nebuliser (UK spelling) [www.drmyhill.co.uk]. I've thought about this, but it just hasn't ramped up on the priority list.

Thanks George, I'll give that some thought.


My potassium levels as measured 3 ways are all in range but on the high side:
Exatest 217.2 (ref 80-240) this is the 85th percentile
Cardymeter varies between 4.5-5.3 -ave 4.9 (ref 3.5-5.3)
serum blood test -ave 4.6 (ref 3.5-5.3)

I don't supplment with potassium anymore (I used to drink 20+/- oz of LSV8 or take 1500 Pot Gluconate). LSV8 used to seem like it really helped, but after some time it's effect seemed to diminish. Maybe my Potassium levels increased, I don't know because I haven't had the Cardymeter for that long. Fitday says my Potassium intake from food if typ 4500+/day, and I try to keep my sodium in the range of 1000-1500mg/day. My protein is typ 20%, cabs12% and fat 68%+/- and I am in ketosis at times based on Ketostix and how I feel (not hungry, dry mouth, steady energy with no food for 6-8 hours).

Do you think that my relatively high potassium levels could be interfering with the mag absorption?

Leo

George - with the Candida - that's not true if you use the Albion chelate amino acid form as it's bound to the protein component. At least that's what they observe, Those insulin resistance experts say similar... gut issues or actual cell receptor damage. As you've noted, the transdermal delivery does help, whatever the cause for mal-absorption.

Leo - Glad you had the Exatest as the serum doesn't reflect the IC levels. Now at least you know you really have to work hard to increase the IC levels. Goodluck with your project. Jackie

Leo - the IM injections are definitely worth doing.. look back at the posts by Shannon and Steve Ortega - they both have done will with IM magnesium that they do themselves.

Regarding stress... there are all types of stress... often you may not even be aware of the stressors, but it still works to deplete Mg. Sleep issues are typically caused by lack of Mg. Over-exercise is considered a huge adverse stressor. While adequate exercise is healthful, overexercise is not. .

While your potassium intake is in the range, it's observed that if there is too much potassium intake when IC Mg levels are low, then potassium makes arrhythmias worse, not better. If you are experiencing AF regularly, cut back on the supplemental potassium while you are boosting the Mg. See if there is a noticeable improvement. Optimal IC magnesium has to be in place for everything else to work properly.

Jackie

Thanks Jackie. I've stopped my LSV8 and potassium gluconate since I'm now aware that my potassium levels are staying on the high side. I've also cut down on heavy exercise. I'll talk to my Md to see if he will do the injections.

Leo

I am very happy with my family doctor / GP. He is generaly most accomodating and the restrictions he places on what he will and will not do are generally based on government medical guidelines (beurocrats saving money on THEIR books).

I have asked him several times about magnesium and IC magnesium. There is NO IC magnesium test in Ontario and I would have to pay out of pocket for Exatest if he will even do it.

How does one approach a family doctor for magnesium injection if one's family doctor says your magnesium is fine, based erroneously on blood serum magnesium (and even at that I tend to be mid range at best).

I personally base my magnesium evaluation on bowel tolerance for supplements and eat as much magnesium rich food as is healthy. Recently we found a seltzer water in a bottle (can't recall where!) that had loads of magnesium in it and minimal sodium. No idea what form of magnesium or how it was measured but it was a bit odd.... a wee bit of sodium, tons of magnesium and nothing else... all zero's.

Murray

Murray - in the post titled The Final Frontier ... Energy Healing - Reversing Atrial Fibrillation...
toward the end of that thread, I mentioned the important use of the magnesium bicarbonate water...
check that. Undoubtedly, the water you found is similar to or may even be the Unique Water from Australia that Erling mentions.
[www.afibbers.org] There is also a natural, magnesium water sold out of California by Adobe Springs called Noah's water (Paul Mason's website), but not sure if it's sold in Canada.

I make a batch of WW at home and use it regularly based on the instructions which are included in that thread because maintaining the proper tissue pH for me is one of the important steps for maintaining my calm heart and my overall health.

As for the Exatest labs, even if your doctor would order it, I'm not sure ExaTest works with Canadian physicians.
On the IM injections of magnesium, I have corresponded with Canadians who have found holistic practitioners who have helped them do what they wanted. I imagine these are rather rare but asking around may lead you to someone. You actually can do the IM injections yourself if you find a physician who can help you get the supplies you need. Several of our posters have done that successfully and it certainly offers a way to increase IC magnesium. However, knowing your baseline levels would be the first step so you know how aggressive to be.

Jackie