Meds or not?

I just discovered this board and would appreciate any information that may help me make a responsible decision. I was diagnosed with lone AF in 2009. Since that time, I have had "events" maybe every 2-3months, most starting in the middle of the night, and lasting from 3-8 hours. I should say that I am female, age 68, and otherwise very healthy. For the first couple of years, I didn't worry too much as my bouts were infrequent and resolved rather quickly...however, during the past 6 weeks, I have had 3 events, each lasting about 7-8 hours (I think they have been stress-induced and am working to resolve the cause of the stress). I had been given Metoprolol to take as needed, which seemed to shorten the events at first, but not so much now. I have normally low blood pressure, and the Metopropol lowers it so much I am very weak for the rest of the day.

I saw a new cardiologist a couple of weeks ago, who prescribed Flecanaid(?) and suggested Pradaxa over Warfarin. After reading about all of them, I am reluctant to take anything at this point. My first cardiologist said I would have to be in AF for approximately 72 hours before any real threat of stroke, and I haven't approached anything like that. After reading the AFIB Report, I feel there may be as much danger from the meds as from the AF as I am experiencing it. I am interested in learning more about alternative approaches, but I don't want to be stupid about not following a doctor's advice.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I've gone through the same decision-making process. My doctor wanted me on either aspirin or warfarin, both are problematic for me and would have caused more problems than otherwise. I was also told to use diltiazem, which in my case, dropped my heartrate at night to a point where I would wake up gasping for breath. Bottom line, I'm much, much healthier and happier without meds. I do take nattokinase as a precaution in case I afib long enough to form a clot - which is very unlikely. Like you, my episodes are infrequent, fairly short and I also self-convert. I continue to refine my diet and supplements which has resulted in a marked improvement in my afib situation.

There is good information here to help you reduce your afib episodes even further, which will surely make your life safer in that respect.

Thanks, Tom. I have lots of reading to do. I must confess that I have taken my relative good health for granted and have much to learn about nutritional approaches, rather than just traditional medical approaches to health care. I am most grateful for this site.

Hi Charlotte,

Your reluctance to be involved with pharmaceutical drugs before exploring all natural, nutritional aspects of AF and its possible natural resolution is wise and exactly correct.

A bit earlier today I was reminiscing about how AF came into my life 10 years after moving to a region where the tap water was very low in magnesium and high in calcium, a Ca:Mg ratio of 4:1, a perfect recipe for cardiac arrhythmia and calcification -- as I was to learn much later. Reversing my dietary Mg:Ca ratio, plus other nutritional improvements and interventions, eliminated AF 10 years ago. Had I known then what is now understood about AF causation, the start-to-end would have been short, certainly much shorter than the 7 years spent studying and applying by trial and error.

So, what's in your water? what is your daily intake of magnesium and calcium? how much sodium do you take in? how much potassium? These are very important nutrient electrolytes to be looked at, and beyond are the nutrients involved in energy production for high-demand cardiac muscles to perform properly.

A good grounding in all this is in The Strategy: What Metabolic Cardiology Means to Afibbers [www.afibbers.org]
and The Potassium/sodium Ratio in Atrial Fibrillation [www.afibbers.org].

You should also take advantage of Paul Mason's remarkable resource [www.mgwater.com] where he has the full 1980 book Magnesium Deficiency in The Pathogenesis of Disease by Mildred S. Seelig, MD, MPH. Chapter 9, Magnesium Deficiency in Cardiac Dysrhythmia shows what was known about the critical need for magnesium in heart rhythm more than 30 years ago. (http://www.mgwater.com/Seelig/Magnesium-Deficiency-in-the-Pathogenesis-of-Disease/preface.shtml)

Best wishes!

Erling

Wow! Thanks, Erling, for these resources. I couldn't begin to answer your questions about my intake of any of the minerals/electrolytes you mentioned. But I will find out! As I said earlier, I have lots of reading to do...appreciate the affirmation of my considerations.

my advice is tread carefully yes don't totally ignore your doctor and read up on Flecainide on here it's a better drug than most give it credit for in preventing electrical and structural remodeling barring coronary artery disease.
Steve **** last words to his biographer was his biggest mistake of his life was avoiding western medicine on diagnosis of his cancer.


1. Steve ****’ Biggest Regret

After learning about Steve ****’ diagnosis of pancreatic cancer, Isaacson was shocked when the entrepreneur told him that he was foregoing surgery. **** instead put off surgery for 9 months and opted to try alternative medicine like fruit juices, acupuncture and herbal remedies, which infuriated his family and friends.

“I’ve asked [**** why he didn't get an operation then] and he said, ‘I didn’t want my body to be opened … I didn’t want to be violated in that way,’ said Isaacson.

“I think that he kind of felt that if you ignore something, if you don’t want something to exist, you can have magical thinking. … We talked about this a lot,” he told Steve Kroft in the 60 Minutes special. “He wanted to talk about it, how he regretted it. … I think he felt he should have been operated on sooner.”

That is Steve **** of Apple fame

Steve J o b s

Charlotte, my story parallels yours in many ways. I first posted here several months ago with virtually the same questions. I had started "The Strategy" in earnest and was wondering how long before I could expect results. I wanted to give it a chance before taking any medications.

The first good advice I received was not to try everything at once, but start with the foundational trio (magnesium, potassium (and its balance with sodium), and taurine). Add the others more slowly, say, one every 10 days or so, to make sure they aren't triggers for you, as they are for some. Also, be patient--it may take months.

I was quite religious about it all and did a lot of research, tracking everything on fitday.com, and educating myself about food content and medications. I cut out gluten and continued my low carb diet. I tracked every supplement addition and afib event. I also used the time, about a 3 month period, to assure myself of the soundness of my heart and to investigate the possibility of underlying causes. I had a carotid artery ultrasound, an echocardiogram, a nuclear stress test, thyroid test, and metabolic blood panel... I started seeing an electrophysiologist (EP) at my cardiologists office. We discussed my supplement program and meds. She wasn't a big believer in the former, but acknowledged some had success with it and did not object when I told her I wanted to continue my efforts a while longer before going on meds. (I was, by the way, using metoprolol during this time, but on a daily basis, 25mg. as opposed to on-demand, like you. I found this dose did not lower my blood pressure too much.)

My supplement program and diet program was helping. If you compare the first 6-weeks of beginning the supplements to the 2nd 6-week period, my afib burden was cut in half. However, it was still very high. I was in afib about every third day for about 6 hours. And some of the events were highly symptomatic.

Finally, I decided that even though the supplements were helping, I wasn't doing my heart any favors by letting it continue in this state. Furthermore, the events, or worrying about one occurring, were definitely interfering with my quality of life. I felt flecainide was safe, especially since I'd investigated underlying causes for my afib. I learned that it could be stopped if desired (unlike some medications which are hard to get off of). I felt that continuing the supplements and dietary changes would support the effect of flecainide, and that if I had long-term success, I could try again later to go without it.

So 3 weeks ago, I started 100mg flecainide (50mg AM, 50mg PM). So far, it's been 100% successful. My heart will still race a bit at night for a few seconds, almost whenever I move, but it goes back to a steady rhythm very quickly and has stayed there. My EP started me on a low dose, but doubted that, in my case, it would be enough. I think the fact that it is, so far, is a tribute to the support of the supplements and diet.

So, bottom line, by all means give the supplements a try. They may be just the ticket, and if they don't get you all the way there, they will likely help regardless. But, also, be comforted by the fact that there are more good options for you if you need them. As many people on this wonderful board have said, "We're all an experiment of one." All the best to you!

Regarding Steve J o bs, very few people survive pancreatic cancer - a leading surgeon once said if you don't find it while undiagnosed and early stage during surgery for something else, you're pretty much screwed. I bet S.J. knew that when he went for an alternative treatment protocol -

Charlotte,

You may wish to take a look at our FAQs including the 12-step plan.

[www.afibbers.org]

Hans

Hi again, Charlotte -

Cliche-> established truth-> official dogma. You'll hear the cliche 'AF begets AF', generally interpreted to mean that chaotic fibrillations alone cause pro-arrhythmic changes (remodeling) to the atria, according to which AF will inevitably become more frequent, perhaps even permanent. Rarely mentioned, if ever, is the likelihood that for the majority of cases pro-arrhythmic atrial remodeling preceded AF, and had for years been progressing slowly and silently setting the stage for AF, then continuing to worsen because of increasing fibrosis (independent of fibrillations) due to uncorrected magnesium deficiency. Amongst AFers there is near 100% certainty of long-standing intracellular deficiency of magnesium with pro-fibrotic, pro-arrhythmic consequences. These studies of Dr. K. Shivakumar, MD, et al make the point (there are numerous supporting studies):
==========

Magnesium deficiency-related changes in lipid peroxidation and collagen metabolism in vivo in rat heart. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11585706)
Kumar BP, Shivakumar K, Kartha CC.
Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 1997 Jan; 29(1):129-34.

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce a cardiomyopathy, characterised by myocardial necrosis and fibrosis... Thus, the present study provides evidence of increased lipid peroxidation and net deposition of collagen in the myocardium in response to dietary deficiency of
==========

Model of cardiovascular injury in magnesium deficiency. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11133266)
Shivakumar K.
Med Hypotheses. 2001 Jan; 56(1):110-3.

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce cardiovascular lesions... This article cites evidence in support of a hypothesis that a fall in serum magnesium levels may trigger a temporal sequence of events involving vasoconstriction, hemodynamic alterations and vascular endothelial injury to produce pro-inflammatory, pro-oxidant and pro-fibrogenic effects, resulting in initial perivascular myocardial fibrosis which, in turn, would cause myocardial damage and replacement fibrosis.
==========

Superoxide-mediated activation of cardiac fibroblasts by serum factors in hypomagnesemia (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11585706)
C. Kumaran and K. Shivakumar
Free Radical Biology and Medicine, Vol. 31(7) (2001) pp. 882-886

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce myocardial fibrosis in different animal models, but the underlying mechanisms are unclear. However, circulating levels of pro-oxidant and mitogenic factors are reported to be elevated in a rodent model of acute magnesium deficiency, suggesting a role for humoral factors in the pathogenesis of the cardiovascular lesions. ... The findings are consistent with the postulation that serum factors may activate cardiac fibroblasts via a superoxide-mediated mechanism and contribute to the fibrogenic response in the heart in magnesium deficiency.
==========

Pro-fibrogenic effects of magnesium deficiency in the cardiovascular system. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12635886)
Shivakumar K.
Magnes Res. 2002 Dec; 15(3-4):307-15.

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce cardiovascular injury. A large body of experimental evidence supports the postulation that an immuno-inflammatory reaction and increased oxidative stress may damage the myocardium and vasculature in magnesium deficiency. Reparative/reactive fibrosis in response to the injury has, however, received little attention. Recent evidence from a rodent model of acute magnesium deficiency suggests that humoral factors may activate cardiac fibroblasts by a free radical-mediated mechanism and contribute to cardiac fibrogenesis. A similar mechanism may also promote cellular hyperplasia and increased matrix synthesis in the vasculature.
==========

Clearly, termination of my 7 year AF stint came about by gaining magnesium sufficiency along with sufficient "magnesium-dependent fibrinolytic enzymes" for removal of the scar tissue (fibrosis) that had developed over years of magnesium deficiency. From The Magnesium Factor by Dr.s Seelig and Rosanoff (2003): "Among the enzymes that have been studied intensively, over 350 need magnesium, directly, to do their work properly... indirectly it is involved in thousands of others."

The bottom line? You can assume, with near 100% certainty, that you are deficient in magnesium, and probably have been for a long time, ultimately resulting in AF (a possible 'canary in the coal mine' warning of worse things to come?). Your #1 priority is to create magnesium sufficiency. Magnesium is that important.

Some years ago Jackie authored the important CR Session 24, Cardiac Fibrotic Remodeling (http://www.afibbers.org/conference/session24.pdf)

inevitably become more frequent, perhaps persistent, even permanent. Cliche-> revealed truth-> official dogma. Rarely mentioned is the likelihood that in the vast majority of cases pro-arrhythmic atrial remodeling was progressing slowly and silently for years prior to the first AF event, setting the stage for AF, and continuing to worsen because of increasing fibrosis (independent of fibrillation effects). There is near 100% certainty of long-standing intracellular deficiency of magnesium amongst AFers along with its pro-fibrotic, pro-arrhythmic consequences (over 80% of the general population is known to be deficient). These studies of K. Shivakumar, MD et al make the point (there are many other supporting studies):
==========

Magnesium deficiency-related changes in lipid peroxidation and collagen metabolism in vivo in rat heart.
Kumar BP, Shivakumar K, Kartha CC.
Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 1997 Jan; 29(1):129-34.

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce a cardiomyopathy, characterised by myocardial necrosis and fibrosis... Thus, the present study provides evidence of increased lipid peroxidation and net deposition of collagen in the myocardium in response to dietary deficiency of magnesium.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
==========

Model of cardiovascular injury in magnesium deficiency.
Shivakumar K.
Med Hypotheses. 2001 Jan; 56(1):110-3.

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce cardiovascular lesions... This article cites evidence in support of a hypothesis that a fall in serum magnesium levels may trigger a temporal sequence of events involving vasoconstriction, hemodynamic alterations and vascular endothelial injury to produce pro-inflammatory, pro-oxidant and pro-fibrogenic effects, resulting in initial perivascular myocardial fibrosis which, in turn, would cause myocardial damage and replacement fibrosis.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
==========

Superoxide-mediated activation of cardiac fibroblasts by serum factors in hypomagnesemia
C. Kumaran and K. Shivakumar
Free Radical Biology and Medicine, Vol. 31(7) (2001) pp. 882-886

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce myocardial fibrosis in different animal models, but the underlying mechanisms are unclear. However, circulating levels of pro-oxidant and mitogenic factors are reported to be elevated in a rodent model of acute magnesium deficiency, suggesting a role for humoral factors in the pathogenesis of the cardiovascular lesions. ... The findings are consistent with the postulation that serum factors may activate cardiac fibroblasts via a superoxide-mediated mechanism and contribute to the fibrogenic response in the heart in magnesium deficiency.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
==========

Pro-fibrogenic effects of magnesium deficiency in the cardiovascular system.
Shivakumar K.
Magnes Res. 2002 Dec; 15(3-4):307-15.

Magnesium deficiency is known to produce cardiovascular injury. A large body of experimental evidence supports the postulation that an immuno-inflammatory reaction and increased oxidative stress may damage the myocardium and vasculature in magnesium deficiency. Reparative/reactive fibrosis in response to the injury has, however, received little attention. Recent evidence from a rodent model of acute magnesium deficiency suggests that humoral factors may activate cardiac fibroblasts by a free radical-mediated mechanism and contribute to cardiac fibrogenesis. A similar mechanism may also promote cellular hyperplasia and increased matrix synthesis in the vasculature.

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
==========

Clearly, termination of my 7 year AF stint came about by gaining magnesium sufficiency along with sufficient "magnesium-dependent fibrinolytic enzymes" to remove the scar tissue (fibrosis) accumulated over years of magnesium deficiency. From The Magnesium Factor by Dr.s Seelig and Rosanoff (2003)*: "Among the enzymes that have been studied intensively, over 350 need magnesium, directly, to do their work properly... indirectly it is involved in thousands of others."

The bottom line: Since you have come down with a case of the AFs you can assume, with near 100% certainty, that you are deficient in magnesium, and likely have been for a long time, ultimately resulting in AF (it's the canary in the coal mine warning of worse things). Your #1 priority is to develop magnesium sufficiency. Magnesium is that important.

Some years ago Jackie authored the important CR Session 24, Cardiac Fibrotic Remodeling (http://www.afibbers.org/conference/session24.pdf)

Be well!

Erling

*[www.amazon.com]

Tom B
That's where sometimes a disservice is done here with all natural supplements helping breed false hope but the damage is still being done. This beast is insidious and you better educate yourself. Margarete nicely sums up this balance Thank You! Afib just happens sometimes and all the links and posting to why is mind boggling trying to sort out.
Regarding Steve J o b s
His pancreatic cancer was the rare form less then 5% of all pancreatic cancer.The other 95% rarely survive 6 months. But he had the treatable form which less then 5% get and early detection and early surgery could cure it and he knew it.
He had Islet Cell Carcinoma, a rare (accounting for less than 5% ), but more treatable form of pancreatic cancer and survivable.

Steve's regret was he had the chance to get cured at his early diagnosis and rare form but took a chance on alternatives and supplements and got burnt!

McHale,

That IS unfortunate for Steve...and I agree about supplements not necessarily being the cure-all. However, all any of us can do is educate ourselves as to what options are available and try to make the best choices based on that information. Conventional medicine with regard to afib, as I see it, is not close to being as advanced as cancer treatment comparatively speaking, as nothing is done in the afib corner to cure the initiating condition - that is no doubt why so many ablations are successful for only a few years. Drugs are nothing more than an often dangerous and eventually ineffective band-aid solution, but diet (not necessarily supplements) can be (as in my case) much more productive at least as a temporary solution, giving a better quality of life until the treatments mature beyond what they are now. Many here have found unique diets (some with supplements) that work for them as individuals, and are living with controlled afib.

Afib does not just happen. Like anything else in our universe there is cause and effect behind every situation. The problem is that we are still probing for answers for a generalized disease that is likely a product of many issues.

I'm still struggling with my erratic heart beats, but I'm not on warfarin or any of the drugs that made my life miserable yet did nothing to reduce the afib occurrences. I'm still learning about heart physiology, the role of the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems, ion movement, and a lot of stuff in between. Why, the diet cured my high blood pressure too! :-)

Magnesium is essential, true, but the dramatic results happen when it has made a base for potassium.

With a proven deficiency disease, it makes sense to provide complete nutrition to every cell since all the nutrientswork together.

i\ hate this kkeyboard. Not mine, I'm visiting.

A fair trial would beof animal fat(s) (butter), meat cooked less than medium, all the minerals known to be commonly deficient which must include iodine and selenium in the right form. Low to zero inflammatory stuff such as carbohydrates. Vit C and B complex.

See the success stories with this approach here, and in curezone.com - I googled "atrial fibrillation iodine" and got good info.

Wiliam

And then there are those of us who don't have the time to do all the reading and making all of our meals from scratch, yet get afib enough to warrant some kind of action. I did try to wrestle with afib for 5 years, always self converting, but could not keep it from returning again and again and again. I do not like taking drugs, but have now been taking Flecainide for over 3 years, and am so thankful for the reprieve I have been given. I realize it may not last indefinitely, but am hoping the knowledge of how to treat this will improve, and ablations (if necessary at that point), will be even safer and more effective.

I would certainly try supplements and diet first, but if you don't get relief and your heart has no underlying issues, Flecainide is supposedly one of the safer medications you can use to give you back your life. We are all different, so what works for one may not work for the other.

Should you decide to try some of the recommendations on this board, you probably won't find a better resource of information and alternative measures than the folks who are posting above.

Good luck ~ Barb

Charlotte - I have not heard the 72 hour statistic. I had been told 48 hours was the worry point. But then the day after a 16 hour a fib event I had a TIA. That was after the cardiologist said I should stop taking warfarin he had prescribed since my events were not too frequent and I always self converted before the 48 hour mark. Just shows that we are all different. I will not go off warfarin ever again unless I am very sure my two ablations have reduced the probability of a fib or flutter to almost zero and I can get fast anticoagulation some other way if the wretched fib or flutter come back. I would be wary of a 72 hour window for not needing anticoagulation.
Phyllis

Phyllis, please keep in mind that there are two causes of strokes - one is a clot, the other is bleeding.
My strokes were caused by bleeding, maybe your TIA was too.

Diet is interactive with warfarin, and unknown blood thinners in food can cause real problems.

William