Absorption rate of ions

I did a cursory search but couldn't find any definitive information on this subject; how long does it take for magnesium and potassium, in supplement forms, to get into the blood stream? I recognize that different people with different diets and individual systems may not have the same results, but I'm curious if any studies have been done to gauge the rate of that absorption. It would be helpful to some, like myself, who are looking to find a cause-and-effect relationship to supplements and heart arrhythmias.

Tom - I did some research into magnesium absorption and wrote a report found in the AF Resources segment (in the blue box at the top of this page) based on the studies and science provided by the mineral experts, Albion Minerals.

You'll see from that report that if the gut tissue is healthy, the best absorption is found with the chelated amino acid form of magnesium glycinate since it doesn't need a chemical reaction to facilitate absorption nor is it side-tracked in the stomach by other chemical reactions. If there are gut issues, such as intestinal overgrowth of Candida, then the absorption issue becomes more complicated. Magnesium stearate often accumulates in the intestine which also forms deposits that block absorption. The health of the gut lumen where absorption takes place is one issue along with the forms of magneisum used.

This report may help clarify some questions.
[www.afibbers.org]

There is a very important book on magnesium by Mildred Seelig, MD and
Andrea Rosanoff, PhD. The website by Paul Mason (www.mgwater.com )also is a huge resource on anything you want to know about magnesium and then some. The complete and original book by Dr. Seelig is there so all one needs is hours of reading time.

Jackie

Thanks, Jackie!

Tom, Jackie -

So, having determined the best way of moving magnesium from mouth to blood stream (absorption), one still needs to know the way of moving magnesium from blood stream into cells "where it belongs" (assimilation). This is the step that likely determines cellular magnesium deficiency or sufficiency. We want to know this - apparently the researchers do too: [physiologyonline.physiology.org]

Marveling at the computer images of the transporter channels (proteins of course) it's easy to imagine dysfunctional "chanelopathies" resulting from insufficient/inappropriate amino acids (dietary, genetic, epigenetic).

Erling

ccording to Dr. Eric Braverman's The Healing Nutrients Within (the amino acid bible) there are 11 (13 for babies) essential and 13 nonessential amino acids.

According to [www.peptideguide.com] there are 8 (or 9) essential and 11 non-essential amino acids.

Take your pick?- which is why I love eggs: no need to worry, they have all amino acids needed to build chickens that make eggs that build chickens that . . . (which came first?) and the cholesterol con hype is outrageous fraud. People with high cholesterol live the longest, says Uffe Ravnskov, MD, Ph.D, and offers voluminous data to back it up: [www.afibbers.org]

From The Healing Nutrients Within: "People often do not realize their need for amino acids because they are not aware of how busy the human body is. Every second, the bone marrow makes 2.5 million red cells. Every four days, most of the lining of the gastrointestinal tract and the blood platelets are replaced. Most of the white cells are replaced in ten days. A person has the equivalent of new skin in twenty-four days and bone collagen in thirty years. All this continuous repair work requires amino acids."

Erling

Tom,

Some anecdotal stories.

In this post, I describe a rather dramatic example: <[www.afibbers.org]; I'm sure it was the mag citrate powder dissolved in water, as the KAL Mag glycinate tablets did not have time to digest. The further drop described - from 85 BPM to 65 BPM after 30 minutes may have been from the KAL tablets.

It should be noted that flecainide has vagolytic action. Therefore some increase in heart rate would be normal. As noted in the post, my resting heart rate would normally be at 85 BPM post conversion. This would gradually decline over the course of a day.

The idea for mag citrate originally came from a post by Jackie a few years ago: <[www.afibbers.org];

My friend with WPW, is described in this post: <[www.afibbers.org];. Because of her adrenergically caused bigeminal PAC rhythms, she is very sensitive to mag levels. When she is in the back-country on all day outings or ski-patrolling, she carries mag with her to supplement when she feels the PAC's coming on, or when she knows she will be exerting herself. My impression is the response time is on the order of less than an hour. When she applied mag sulfate or chloride solution topically for cramps, again the response time was in the order of 10-15 minutes for the cramp relief.

I was just discussing mag use with a climbing partner who happens to be an ER doc. He was noting the fast response time of IV mag sulfate for use with eclampsia during pregnancy (and with pre-eclampsia for eclampsia prevention).

You might be interested in this article [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] comparing the response time converting to NSR for IV mag sulfate vs. amioderone.

George

Jackie's early '09 post is intriguing.

She says, "Maybe the reason why, when we gobble down magnesium and potassium at the onset of an event and find it has no conversion effect, it is because we just aren’t taking enough magnesium to make a difference. We probably only take 300-400 mg in capsule form with our panic-mode remedy and Dr. Wong’s suggested ‘big-hit dose’ is substantially more magnesium in solution and ready to work."

Has anyone experimented with the increased dose she disscussed here for conversion? If so, what happened?

During one afib episode I took one packet of natural calm and converted immediately; however, the last time I tried it, I had a 6 hour episode. With my afib, the effectiveness of supplements seems inconsistent, partly because it is often difficult to establish any successful correlations that are consistent over larger periods of time.

P.S. The low salt-high potassium diet element of control has been consistent in its effects for the 4 months that I have embraced it.

Tom,

I reread Jackie's post carefully. There are some inaccuracies in it. The liquid mag citrate from the drug store contains about 1746 mg of magnesium citrate per fl oz. NOT 1746 mg magnesium as citrate. As the molar mass of mag cit is 214.41 and the molar mas of magnesium is 24.31, magnesium citrate is 24.31/214.41 = 11.34% magnesium. So 1746 mg mag cit would have 1746 x .1134 = 198 mg magnesium (per fl oz). The whole 10 oz bottle would have 1980 milligrams of mag.


George

George,
Thanks for pointing that out - good eye! Then anyone who tried a one ounce dose of the liquid would not realize any more effect than would be found in a 200 mg magnesium citrate as magnesium capsule...and I doubt that anyone would consume a whole bottle.
I think I'll stick to my newly started daily supplement of a single 140mg of magnesium citrate as magnesium capsule and see how it plays out. In the past I've had afib episodes after taking magnesium, so I've been hesitant to restart. In those times past, however, I did not consume the higher levels of potassium that I do now.

Whew, what a journey!
Thanks again all.

Thanks George - We didn't really examine that at the time with such care.
What we did learn, though as I recall, is that adding a large amount of the magnesium citrate didn't seem to improve conversion time.... plus one then has to deal with the bowel tolerance issue with that large dosage.

You're the topical magnesium expert. My experience extends only to sore or stiff muscles and the rapid affect topical Mg has on that...but it would be interesting to know if anyone has used the topical/transdermal delivery method at the onset of an event because of the very rapid uptake and delivery. For a stiff neck, in my case, the relaxation effect is in 15 minutes or less. It would be interesting to learn if a large area of application would provide conversion relief for AF just as quickly.

Jackie

As they say, "its complicated."

Variables include:

form of Mg salt
transit time
what is taken in with it

For your reading pleasure (most is in English, though a small part is in German):

Magnesium Absorption in Humans
A dissertation submitted to the
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich
for the degree of
Doctor of Natural Sciences
presented by
Torsten Bohn

[e-collection.library.ethz.ch]

"Mg intestinal absorption in humans starts approximately 1 h after oral intake, as indicated by increased plasma Mg in studies using radioactive 28Mg. Because of this short time, it has been suggested that absorption occurs also in the more proximal parts of the small intestine. Mg absorption reaches a plateau after 2-2.5 h up to 4-5 h and then declines. At 6 h, Mg absorption is about 80% complete (reviewed by Hardwick et al., 1990a)."

My own magnesium intake includes:

Mag glycinate tablets (KAL Brand) 0.8 grams Mg/day

Magnesium bicarbonate (in the form of Waller Water concentrate [www.afibbers.org]) 0.545 grams Mg/day - 1.5 grams Mg/liter x .36 liters/day

Magnesium Chloride (in the form of mag chloride water made by dissolving 7 tablespoons Mitoku Nigari in 2 liters of water, [www.naturalimport.com]. 7 TBS is about 56 grams of MgCl2. MgCl2 hexahydrate is about 12% Mg, so this works out to be 28 x 0.12 = 3.36 grams Mg/liter, approximating the formula here: <[arthritistrust.org] Chloride Hexahydrate Therapy.pdf>) 1.34 grams Mg/day - 3.36 grams/liter x 0.4 liters

Magnesium Citrate (as "Natural Calm" dissolved in water). 0.175 g day (1 rounded tsp powder)

As to Albion's assertion that their brand of Mag glycinate is the most bioavailable, my own experience would suggest this may not be true. I take all of the above in two divided doses. I wait to take the Waller Water and MgCl2 water so that I don't disrupt the digestion of my meals. One day, I forgot the Waller Water and MgCl2 at home (I'd taken 0.4 grams of the KAL Mag glycinate with breakfast, as always). I have a bottle containing the Albion Mag glycinate at my office for these occasions. My morning dose of WW & MgCl2 would total about 0.940 g Mg. I took 0.5 g Mg as the Albion Mag glycinate as a replacement. It pushed me over my bowel tolerance limit. I found this interesting, since it was significantly less Mag than what I normally take. I've repeated this experiment with the KAL brand replacing the Albion glycinate. The KAL did not push me over the tolerance limit. However, early in my supplement program, the KAL was the only form of mag I used and it kept the afib at bay.

My experience is that the citrate is less bioavailable. I'm not sure that among the bicarbonate water, the chloride water or the non-Albion glycinate there is a material difference, at least for me (the Albion seems less bioavailable than the others).

The MgCl2 from the Nigari is an extremely inexpensive form of magnesium.

Another observation is going over my bowel tolerance limit doesn't really have severe negative consequences for me. I took comfort in Dr. Mansmann's experience taking 20 grams Mg/day for a year.

“I was saturated at about 3 grams of elemental Mg per day, but went to 20 grams for over a year. I now take 5 grams, and stools are semi-formed, and the surrounding water is clear, 3-4 per day.” “Mg is very safe, since the gut absorption is regulated by serum Mg levels, and then the Mg stays in the gut and results in varying degrees of diarrhea. Then the dose is too high. Want soft semi-formed stools. Mine, while on high dosages of magnesium were liquid every 2-4 hours for 2 years, the electrolytes every month were normal, but for low potassium, part of my urinary Mg wasting, both.” [www.mpwhi.com] page 77

I have never pushed my bowels to his level, but try to stay near the edge of tolerance. I did run across a paper whose data demonstrated that humans absorbed 7% of the magnesium taken in above the level of bowel tolerance. Hence there was incremental benefit to what Mansmann was doing. I don't have the NIH citation readily available.

Again, its complicated!

George

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
"Our results are statistically compatible with a magnesium absorption process that simultaneously uses a mechanism that reaches an absorptive maximum, plus a mechanism that endlessly absorbs a defined fraction (7%) of ingested magnesium."

George, thanks for finding these.

Your quotes:
As they say, "its complicated."
Variables include:
form of Mg salt
transit time
what is taken in with it

.....Complicated, yes definitely. Additionally, the other factor that isn't mentioned is the condition of the transfer sites in the intestinal lumen... that's the most critical because whatever amount of magnesium in whatever form eventually reaches that access point...and if the portals of transfer are clogged, magnesium has limited access... further, if the magnesium receptor sites on the cells themselves are distorted or damaged, (ie the phospholipid layer being clogged from transfats) even though magnesium manages to get through the gut wall, if it can't access the cell's interior, then there won't be optimal absorption....or benefits from magnesium (or any other nutrient).

The study you mentioned in the last post includes one a well-known expert on intestinal absorption - Kenneth Fine as an author, but since it's such an old study, it may not have been able to include the better-absorbed form - the chelated amino acid form as patented by Albion.

The bottom line is really...no matter what form of magnesium is ingested, if it can't make it through 1) the intestinal lumen or 2) gain access through the outer cell envelope, then magnesium absorption is going to be limited or impaired. Therefore the IV or IM or even transdermal magnesium works wonders in people who are unable to increase their IC magnesium.

Because typically so many doctors don't work with healing the gut and cell receptor sites, those alternative deliveries offer a quick way of helping replete magnesium but does nothing to ensure that all the other nutrients needed can access the intracellular space.... so the complication is really that total nutrition isn't optimized and it not just magnesium.

Jackie