Potassium & Magnesium Spacing

Hello,
In this formum I've come across some comments about taking doses of Magnesium and Potassium at different times - and if i remember correctly that it would increase the effectiveness of magnesium.

Up to now i've been taking both at the same time(s).

I've done a search on the forum to see if i can find info on it...but havent found anyting yet.

Can anyone assist me in knowing how much time between a dose of Mag vs. one of potassium is optimal? and, how does this increase the effectiveness (of one, either or both)?

thanks,

terry

Terry,

Potassium can interfere with magnesium absorption. I've not found any data that describe how long you need to wait. I'll take a wild guess and say an hour.

See: <[www.afibbers.org];

George

Terry - I've always taken mine together - just because I want to be sure I remember to get the dosing in.

You may be thinking about the instructions where we start supplementing with magnesium initially..having not taken it previously and with regard to being magnesium deficient.

Then it becomes important not to begin taking potassium for several weeks until your tissues become partially repleted. Adding potassium too soon may may AF worse. You should add potassium slowly and in half-doses - if you use the powder - just half a teaspoon at first - several times a day. A full teaspoon yields 540 mg of potassium. Many people take at least 3 teaspoons(of potassium) a day with meals and in divided doses.

This assumes that you have healthy kidneys (for both the Mg and the K+ use) and that you are not also taking a potassium-sparing medication.

Jackie

If you're not a bowel tolerance, it may not make a huge difference. In hindsight, at one point I had a magnesium deficiency issue (even though by most measures I was taking a lot). I made the assumption it was a potassium problem and increased my potassium by multiples. Again in hindsight, it exacerbated the magnesium deficiency. Once I recognized the problem I:

a) reduced my potassium intake and spaced it away from magnesium
b) increased my mag intake.

This solved my problem.

In the linked paper cited above, it states: "Preintestinal absorption of Mg was depressed linearly with increases in dietary potassium." Now, both were taken together in the feed. [jas.fass.org]

All that being said, I still take some mag (1/3 of my intake) with my potassium, but a lot (2/3's), I take away from meals and the potassium.

George

Good question Terry, and thanks for the good answers George and Jackie, I recently have wondered the exact same thing! TP

3-1/2 ounces of dried apricots gives you 1,400 mgs. of potassium.

Elizabeth H.

Thanks everyone for the input...it helps be get on track.

Terry

I take most of my supplements in four divided doses, three with meals and one in the middle of the night.

Intuitively it seems to me that keeping a constant nutrient blood concentration will maximize intra cellular absorption.

Having certain knowledge of that one nutrient interferes with the absorption of another certainly trumps my constant concentration approach and George seems to have demonstrated this in the case of K and Mg. I guess I'll try to adjust my schedule to accommodate this new constraint.

Josiah

Josiah - you can try it either way, but since this study George references is on sheep, I'm not sure it directly applies to humans. But, that said, it's long been known that until you have reached optimal magnesium stores, then adding potassium can make afib worse. If you think that potassium is a problem for you, then you first you have to determine if you have reached tissue saturation or that "tissue complicance" factor I mention in The Strategy. Jackie

On a similar subject, what amount of magnesium are people taking when combining Waller Water and magnesium glycinate (Doctor's Best). I was a little confused when trying to calculate the WW dosage when taking into account it higher rate of absorption. I know I should increase slowly to bowel tolerance, but I'm trying to combine both forms and have previously been taking 800 of the mag glycinate.

Karen
I take 600 mg mag glycinate over four doses in a day (100, 200, 100 and 200). And I make a days worth of drinking water with 200 ml of WW concentrate (I think that it is 300 mg mag bicarbonate in 200 ml). So, my total is 900 mg mag I believe.
Cyndie

Karen,

I use ionized liquid Magnesium Chloride (not the Waller, Waller, but also better absorption rate)) and have been able to push my levels of mag. to 1400. Prior I was taking what you are, 800 of the glycinate.

Steve

Steve,

It would be helpful if you would be clearer. What is "ionized liquid Magnesium Chloride (not the Waller, Waller, but also better absorption rate)"? And what makes it's absorption rate better than that of Waller, Waller?

Erling

Karen,

I take:

800 mg of KAL magneisum glycinate

12 oz of Waller Water concentrate (about .35 liters) so .35 x 1500 mg/liter = 525 grams magnesium

0.4 to 0.5 liters of Mag chloride water made from Nigari (magnesium chloride hexahydrate). Right now I'm using 3 TBS nigari per liter to make the water. There is about 7 grams Nigari ber TBS so 21 grams/liter. The magnesium percentage of the magnesium chloride hexahydrate is about 12% so .12 x 21 x .5 = 1.26 grams magnesium for 0.5 liters or about 1 gram for 0.4 liters (I'm playing around with dosage).

So total elemental magnesium is 800+525+1260=2385 mg. Or about 2.1 - 2.4 grams mag/day depending upon the day.

George

Erling - thanks for that. I agree about the need for clarification.

I've recently been reading more about what are actually the better forms of magnesium for bioavailability and the chemistry indicates that magnesium salts are not better absorbed.

" True chelates are absorbed better than mineral salts [this would be magnesium chloride as an example] and are better retained in body tissue. Chelates are better tolerated than non-bound mineral salts.

Mineral salts from non-true chelates break apart far sooner, usually in the stomach, leaving the body with the extra compound to deal with and the mineral in ionic form."

When I find a minute, I'm thinking of doing a post on this. Realistically, the bottom line is whether or not what a person takes works for them and if it begins the process of keeping them in NSR.

The problem that I want to research more thoroughly is that when a mineral salt breaks down or dissociates in the stomach, then taking elevated amounts as we are known to do to reach "the goal" leaves that person with a potential to accumulate too much chloride ...whereas a chelated form will not produce that problem. The same might be true of the magnesium bicarbonate... and I believe PC addressed the problem of elevated alkalinity from too much bicarbonate in one of his posts.

I'll address this in a separate post when I get it organized. I'll value your input.

Jackie

Sorry Erling,

Magnesium chloride from the Nigari. Not better absorption than the Waller Waller----better absorption than the glycinate tablets. Sometimes I fire those emails off too quickly.

Steve

Jackie

Interesting point about the mag. chelates and the salts. How does one measure this distinction, and how do we really understand who absorbs what? I think that I am more helped by the chloride, but the chloride may give me a more temporary bump and that is it. On the other hand, in my case, digestion issues may be impairing the uptake of the chelate, and thus I may benefit more from the salt. I really don't know how to measure output. Might one argue that supplementing different forms of mag. is the best way to go?

Steve

Hello Steve,

You had it right earlier, so please be more careful with my water's good name. Its not Waller Waller, it's Waller, Waller.

Your pen pal Erling.

Steve - there is science to support the bioavailalbility of each form of magnesium. Measuring it in the body is the intracellular content which is what the Exatest thread is all about. Hopefully, we'll be able to add more to that in the near future.

The mineral supplement people, such as Albion Minerals have been researching and measuring absorption and efficacy for over 50 years so I tend to trust what they offer as a result of their work.

As far as the chelate form being influenced by your digestion issues... quite the opposite... since the chelate form is not influenced or does not depend on stomach acid to breakdown or metabolize the true chelated form patented by Albion. Those that are not true chelates may cause a problem.

However, as I mentioned in The Strategy, other issues prevent people from optimizing their magnesium ... and it could start right in the intestine if the villi (the areas on the small intestine at which nutrients flow into the blood stream) are blocked or clogged with Candida overgrowth, or a mass of magnesium stearate plugging the villi.... or, further, once the magnesium does managed to pass through the villi, the cell's outer layer may be malformed or hardened/damaged from transfats and this can deform nutrient receptor sites (including magnesium) so the mineral/electrolyte can't even access the inside of the cell where it begins to perform its magic.

Some people as also mentioned are such prolific wasters that they never reach that tissue saturation because the magnesium is used up faster than it can be replenished... I used the filling the bucket with holes analogy.

For afibbers attempting to optimize magnesium and 'know' if they have reached that tissue saturation point... the reliable, method as observed by Dr. Burford-Mason in her talk on magneisum is the two soft bowel movements a day. The other would be a significant improvement in the frequency of AF or the absence of it for prolonged period of time. Then, obviously, there is the EXAtest we've previously mentioned.

My advice remains... use the labeled patented Albion process chelated version of magnesium as the main source of magnesium. I see nothing wrong with augmenting that with various other forms such as the citrate, the gluconate, lactate, malate, bicarbonate or even the chloride. But I caution people to understand that elevated levels of the ligand may cause problems in some individuals... esp. the chloride and perhaps the bicarbonate.

Because we are talking relatively large doses of magnesium, the ligand becomes an important issue. In the case of magneisum glycinate, when it does become assimilated in one's system, the additional benefits to the body of glycine are manifold. That may be less true of some of the others at the higher levels.

A google seaarch on Benefits of Glycine yields 285,000 hits.

Jackie

Study of magnesium bioavailability from ten organic and inorganic Mg salts in Mg-depleted rats using a stable isotope approach

[www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr]

Form , Mg retention,% , Mg absorbed,%
MgO , 44.8 ± 5.9 , 57.0 ± 7.0
MgCl2 , 42.8 ± 0.51 , 54.8 ± 7.1
MgSO4 , 39.5 ± 6.8 , 51.0 ± 7.5
MgCO3 , 41.0 ± 4.6 , 52.0 ± 4.6
Acetate , 42.9 ± 4.0 , 55.1 ± 4.1
Pidolate , 45.0 ± 5.8 , 59.7 ± 7.7
Citrate , 44.7 ± 5.6 , 57.6 ± 7.7
Gluconate , 48.7 ± 5.4 , 66.5 ± 7.1
Lactate , 48.0 ± 5.5 , 59.0 ± 6.1
Aspartate , 46.9 ± 5.8 , 60.4 ± 7.5

How do rat cells equate with human cells? Equivalent? Do we know?
Hans always says rat studies aren't reliably predictive of human results.
?? anyone know??

Jackie

In the interest of science I'd replicate the rat study using myself as a subject, only the sacrificing at the end is not repeatable 10 times.

"Results showed that supplementation of the organic forms of Mg (citrate and amino-acid chelate) showed greater absorption (P = 0.033) at 60 days than MgO, as assessed by the 24-h urinary Mg excretion. Mg citrate led to the greatest mean serum Mg concentration compared with other treatments following both acute (P = 0.026) and chronic (P = 0.006) supplementation."

<[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum>

[www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr]

Seriously, one can at least test the amount needed of the various forms for bowel tolerance on oneself.

George - I may not understand your point, but this (reference) talks about serum testing of magnesium and we know serum is not reflective of what's inside the cells. Further, if bowel intolerance comes up fairly soon in a regimen, it's not necessarily indicative that the IC stores are repleted to optimal...just that the body is getting rid of excess magnesium that was introduced to quickly. It's already established that the citrate form does not remain in tissue for any length of time.

Short of IC testing, I don't see an accurate way to really assess the absorbability quality of each of the various forms... and obviously, unless you had free access to the Exatest, I don't see how that could be done affordably.

Am I missing something?
Jackie

Jackie,

If one is consistently at bowel tolerance with a program that includes one or more forms of magnesium, one could change to a different mix and see what happens to bowel tolerance.

For example, I currently take the glycinate, chloride and bicarbonate forms. If I get to consistent bowel tolerance, I could, for example go to 100% glycinate at the same elemental mag intake level and see what happens. Bowel tolerance could either a) stay the same, b) increase or c) decrease. If b) or c) happens, I could adjust the quantity till bowel tolerance is again reached. I could then repeat going to 100% chloride, then 100% bicarbonate and 100% citrate.

This would give an indication of bioavailability for me for these magnesium forms. Personally I feel that the rat study is the most thorough I've come across as they sampled many parts of the process. Irrespective of the sacrificing at the end, this would still be difficult to replicate in humans.

With the playing around I've done so far - without being rigorous - I'd say that the glycinate, chloride and bicarbonate are relatively the same and all more bioavailable than the citrate. However, the citrate still has merit.

Recalling my anecdote of PIP flecainide conversion, going back to sleep and waking up in NSR an hour later at 130 BPM. I then took something like 400 mg of glycinate tablets along with 400 mg of citrate powder dissolved in water. My HR immediately started to decline and was at 80 BPM 10 minutes later. I'm confident the tablets had not started to dissolve by then. So the citrate did the trick. You were the one that originally posted about the citrate conversion trick (though this wasn't conversion, just slowing the flecainide post conversion heart rate). In retrospect, a magnesium deficit set up this particular afib episode for me. For those who don't remember, here are some threads:

[www.afibbers.org]
<[www.afibbers.org];

As an aside, I'm not sure an Exatest would show different results (assuming good quality control on their part both times) than when I took it 6 years ago. I think my mag wasting keeps my intracellular levels just high enough to keep me in NSR, but nowhere near fully saturated. I'm just offsetting the continual mag wasting.

Regards,

George