The Moving Target of Afib

Hi Everybody,

I wanted to expand on the conversation on how to tinker (think for oneself) with supplements, diet etc. to deal with afib and to comment on Erling's suggestion that we find someway to illustrate the complex set of relationships that produces afib.

First, as though one of the problems with tinkering is that the set of variables that might trigger an event need to isolated, forced to stand on their own so that each one of them can be understood independently. So what does that mean? For instance, if one is having a stressful day (that may be everyday), if would seem to be a good idea to stick with a diet that is very safe. We all have some idea as to what works and what doesn't, stick with what works. While I am not a strict empiricist, maybe some sort of stress scale needs to be created, 1-10 where 10 warrants flashing red lights, L-theanine and very simple food. Not so easy though because the problem is that stress can creep up at any moment, (you know the metaphorical traffic jam, you are sailing along and then bam heavy traffic) thus one needs to be armed with the right supplements. Taurine okay, but which other one, magnesium, potassium? Here is where the tinkering comes in, one needs to just try one and if it works great, if not---maybe try the other the next time. I am operating on the premise that these two minerals should not be taken together, but for some people this strategy may also work. I would guess that all three strategies need to be tried, of course unless one works very well over and over again.

Two points also come to mind regarding this test. One is magnesium intake. In my case, I am convinced that I have not reached my max yet. I climb slowly and thought I had maxed out at 1250, but am now comfortable at 1400 mgs daily, which does not include gel. And I admit that certain people reach bowel tolerance at a much lower level than others, but I also think that we should not equate bowel tolerance with a fixed number. If the ectopics and the afib continue to come back an unfortunate bout of diarrhea does not mean that one should not figure out new strategies. (Jackie, Erling George, am I right on this one?) There are different ways to take in magnesium, and they all need to be explored. If 80% of us have a magnesium deficiency until we achieve that 40 or 41 on the Exatest (footnote Erling), we should keep pushing.

Which leads to me to my second point, risk. Tinkering may prompt an event.It did for me last week, and how does one factor in this risk? I must admit that I am very lucky in that I can use flecainide to stop an episode very quickly, and thus, I may be willing to take more risks because of this luxury. For others, I guess that one has to quantify one's risk and than take the appropriate steps, diet supplements etc. In my case, I will continue to tinker and take risks because I really want to know what I can eat, what I can't and I want to know how much of each supplement to take. In this regard if I eat the banana, I want to isolate the experience to see if it brings on more irregular beats. Not on a stressful day, because then I won't know, but on a nice sunny happy day. I want there to be bananas in my future, or not.

Which brings me to you point Erling, how can all of this be illustrated? How might an picture be created of the effects that putting X or Y into your body have on heart function, body chemistry etc? I agree with you that if this could be graphed, it might make it easier for people to develop an individual strategy, a way to save money and a sense at there is light at the end of the tunnel. I had one of those experiences today. I had some sunflower seeds (on an empty stomach) and I am sure that my inability to digest them produced irregular beats. I had experienced this problem before, but I was unsure if they were the cause. Now I am. While we all hate these moments, I try to take solace in the fact that I have one more small bit of information in my struggle to overcome the moving target that is afib.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Wanted to interject the story of the late Dr. Mansmann again. Dr. Mansmann was a retired, diabetic, pediatrician. He spent the last 20+ years of his life researching magnesium At one point he took 20 grams of mag a day for a year and reversed his peripheral neuropathy.

The forms he listed as taking are as follows (I looked up their generic names)-

Maginex: magnesium-L-aspartate hydrochloride formulation
MgOxide: I'm guessing just plain magnesium oxide
Mag-Tab SR: magnesium lactate
Magonate: magnesium gluconate

<[www.afibbers.org]>


"Dr. Herbert Mansmann Jr., Director of the Magnesium Research Lab,[xi] who is a diabetic with congenital magnesium deficiency and severe peripheral neuropathy, shares that he was able to reverse the neuropathy and nerve degeneration with a year of using oral magnesium preparations at very high doses. “For example it took me 6 tabs of each of the following every 4 hours, Maginex, MgOxide, Mag-Tab SR and Magonate to get in positive Mg balance. I tell people this not to scare them, but to illustrate how much I needed to saturate myself. Most will only need 10% of this amount. I was doing an experiment on myself to see if it helped my diabetic neuropathy. It worked, so I did it for one year, and I have had significant nerve regeneration. I could never have been able to do this with MgSO4 baths (Epsom Salt), since I could not get into and out of a bath tub”

Some of Dr. Mansmann's articles are here: [barttersite.org]. It is interesting to peruse his articles listed in Google Scholar: [tinyurl.com] His would be the ones with author as HC Mansmann. They include this patent for using magnesium gluconate for preventing and treating immunological, infectious and inflammatory diseases PDF[tinyurl.com] WEB [tinyurl.com].


Now from [www.bioline.org.br]: "Total body store [of magnesium] is approximately 21-28 g.

So Dr. Mansmann was taking nearly the quantity of magnesium in his total body store every day for that year! Now, I'm quite certain if you tested his urine, a very high percentage of his intake was going out in his urine (and bowels). I'm guessing his cellular absorption was so poor he needed to have this intake just to raise the cellular level a small bit.

I'm at about 2 grams elemental/day and not at bowel tolerance right now. Just talked to a friend afibber yesterday who is at 4 grams/day elemental of the Albion product di-magnesium malate. He is not at bowel tolerance either. This is supposedly more bioavailable than the glycinate. His wife is a health pro and buys it from some supplier in Canada. I've only found a combined product in the US: Albion Bio-Available Magnesium Glycinate/Malate (which I've not purchased). In any case the 4 grams/day keeps him in NSR.

For Steve, my friend and myself, our intake is a very significant percentage of the total body store of mag. Especially since about 50% of that store is in the bones.

I'm not sure what the moral is here - but several things come to mind. It is hard to hurt yourself with magnesium ASSUMING YOUR KIDNEYS ARE NORMAL. Also, there may be benefit to pushing this to your body's limit, not just tiptoeing (as you said, Steve, cramming).

George

Hi George,

That magnesium chloride works very well for me. I am going to try to take more and more of it. Not only does it reduce ectopic beats, it also seems minimize the intensity of them. I wondering whether this is factor in staying in NSR? If the beat or beats do not have the same force, does that in some way prevent the run of PACS that leads to afib? Maybe not, but I know in my case, if I don't feel the beats, there seems to be less of a chance of an episode. That said, I have never (fingers crossed) had an event while sleeping.

Steve

Steve - an interesting, reflective post. Thanks for taking the time to offer it.

As we continue to state, we are all different and experiments of one, but the fundamentals lie in what The Strategy report points out. That is, magnesium first, then potassium both modulated by taurine and supported with the adjunct neutraceuticals, CoQ, carnitine, ribose, Omega 3's, B complex and for some, other nutrients as well.

But first, nothing is going to change without the focus being on magnesium, at least initially.

And, because of this biochemical uniqueness that I keep mentioning, our environmental influences will greatly impact (or influence) the effects of our nutrient intake and how those impact each of us individually. At best, we can offer tips, guidelines and anecdotal experiences so others can try similar protocols. No one size fits all; no two individuals will respond identically for very obvious reasons.

As suggested in the "Biochemical Individuality" book by Roger Williams, PhD, because of 'environmental influences', meaning that which includes what happened in embryonic development, based on a 'genotropic principle', nutritional status then passes forward and influences how that individual handles or manages health and disease states throughout life.

In discussing his theories, it is observed: ...."there is reason to think of the author as an "environmentalist"....if the full implications of the genotrophic principle are grasped..... because of the tremendous potentialities Dr. Williams attributes to nutrition--a strictly environmental factor."

....."Although it is admitted that from a practical standpoint, supplying the needed environmental (nutritional factors) maybe far from simple, the logical application of the genotrophic idea emphasizes the theoretical possibility that practically any human weakness, deformity, deficiency or disease can be combated with some success by supplying the needed nutrients to the right locality at the right time."

This is exactly what we doing with our experimenting or "tinkering" process to reach Tissue Compliance as stated in The Strategy Observational Report.

We can give guidelines but the bottom line is: success may be elusive and may only occur in individuals who persist with extreme diligence and then finally manage to find the right combination of nutrients that restores or optimizes their particular requirements as evidenced by persistent NSR.

My hope is that with all of our collective personal experiences and knowledge, we can refine the guidelines even for new afibbers seeking to find a LAF "cure" by restoring the nutritional status of key cells.

Jackie

Steve,

It is a good question about feeling ectopics. I have a recording heart rate monitor, though usually only wear it while meditating. Sometimes I'll use the "lap" button on the monitor to tag when I feel ectopics. I feel them very infrequently. I have a lot more than I feel. Don't know what the ratio of felt to unfelt is, but it may be 100 or a 1000 to 1. My sense is, I feel ectopics when there is a run of them, not just a one off. As to minimizing the intensity, maybe that is because there are fewer of them???

As an aside, my wife, a non-afibber, started feeling unusual beats. I put a monitor on her. She was getting say 5 or more ectopics per minute with a ratio of 1 PAC to say 6 PVC's. I had her up her mag (in the form of glycinate) a bit and start taking a little potassium. In short order (a day or two), her rate was down to 1 ectopic every 2 minutes and she didn't feel them anymore. I've not sampled her in many weeks, but she says she no longer feels the ectopics and it is not a concern.

I can feel ectopics in the vagal aftermath to sexual climax. My heart pounds strongly and slows. I feel my heart in any case, but not always the ectopics. Whether I feel this or not is highly correlated to my magnesium status. With sufficient magnesium, my heart feels very stable, no ectopics at all.

The more PACs there are, the higher the probability of afib (for an afibber, of course - a normal can have a lot of PAC's and no afib).

I'm glad the Nigari is working for you.

Until recently, I was taking a lot of citrate (~1 gram/day) in my mag mix. Loose stools are easy to come by with it in mix. I decided to take it out and up the chloride and bicarbonate (Waller Water). I've not reached bowel tolerance again with them. One experiment I thought about was to come up to bowel tolerance and then switch to all of one or the other and see what happens. A one person bioavailability study.

George

George,
I would be interested to hear if you do switch to one form of mag, because with my success with the chloride, I am contemplating that move. I would like to try the di-magnesium malate first though. If it's more bio-available why not?

Steve

Jackie,

I am in complete agreement with you about hoping that we as a group can find some answers for future individuals in our predicament. Personally, as much as I hate this condition (and I do hate it), I take some solace in the fact that for the first time in years (pre-aFib as well) my body has begun a healing process, certainly not a linear one in which each subsequent day is better than the prior one, but instead a slow bio-chemical change characterized by both gains and setbacks.

Steve