Meditation changes the feel of my ectopic beats

In the process of experimenting with meditation, I've discovered something about my ectopics, which are annoying (not nearly as annoying as they used to be, since I managed to reduce their frequency by an order of magnitude last fall, but still annoying).

They aren’t trouble in themselves, but each is accompanied by what feels like a little squirt of adrenaline in my chest. The squirts add up and by day’s end I’m strung out.

I hope that meditation will reduce my ectopics’ frequency. The jury’s out, but when I do a certain kind of meditation called a "body scan", the squirts diminish even when the extra beats continue. Without the adrenaline, the extra beats are easier to endure. I wonder why this happens. If I could make it happen when I’m not meditating, my life would be better.

Something for you to experiment with if you're similarly afflicted.

I intend to write about the effects of meditation on my heart health (the heart issues are a major motivator for my meditation experiment), and when I do so, I'll do it here:

[www.mymeditationyear.com]

Nick,

Interesting experiment. I've meditated for years for 1-1.5 hours/day. Never noticed anything like what you're describing regarding ectopics.

As to your extended meditation plan, I have acquaintances that meditate for 5-7 hours/day and have for years. As a (semi-objective) observer, I'm not sure I would say that meditation for these extended amounts of time have great benefit for a productive life. These guys become meditation zombies & fairly incapable of anything else.

George

For heart health, Dr. Stephen Sinatra, (M.D.), the "alternative" medicine cardiologist, recommends meditation (and also "T'ai Chi, yoga, prayer, music, dance, walking, solving puzzles, or a hobby like painting or fishing, in other words, something that you love to do and do it as often as you can") in the April issue of "Dr. Stephen Sinatra's Heart, Health & Nutrition."

This is at the conclusion of his essay "Relax, Breathe, and Live Longer," that is about the importance of identifying and managing sources of stress.

It raises the question in my mind as to whether we afibbers are especially "good" at repressing our feelings and emotions, i.e., ignoring sources of stress.

It is beautiful here in New England this Easter morning. Phoebes, Robins and Fox Sparrows have returned from the South, and Spring Peepers and Tree Frogs are noisily ga-lugging and peeping in the early evening. The grass in the fields is changing from seer brown to brilliant green.

Carol

Nick - Good for you. Thanks for posting your experiences. In former times when I did have afib or ectopy, I combined meditation and Reiki and found it to be extremely calming with also a lowering of HR. I'm convinced that anything we can do - regardless of whether or not we have afib - to relax and reduce stress will help everyone as stress these days is so prevalent and it's so damaging. Jackie

Carol, around here the snow is all gone at last and the frost is out of the ground, but the weeklong rain that abolished the last of the plowbank glaciers has left the woods full of what the nature columns call vernal pools. The spring peepers are shrilling away. For some reason that highpitched sound does not annoy the way cicada song does, instead it has a sweet pure sound, like many little silver bells all chiming at once, that i do not tire of. Likely it has to do with the contrast with the recent winter. Just this morning the first daffodils have bloomed at the front by the road. They join the patch of large white crocuses i laid down there when i planted the daffodils. Wish i had included some other colors. There are never enough crocuses.

Boy are we going to have some mosquitoes. Come on mint patch, i will really need you this year. Happy Springtime, one and all.

PeggyM

George,

It may be the particular form of meditation I'm doing, called the body scan (this is the best online description I can find, though it's not very good [www.abc-of-yoga.com]). It's different from most sitting meditations and more body-centered.

Re: meditating 7 hours/day - yes seems strange. I can't imagine living my whole life that way. But I want to experience it at least for a short time.

Carol,

You raise a point that I've been thinking about for a while. I've noticed that the manner of my breathing, when I'm not thinking about it, is not so good. Very shallow, and sometimes I'll suddenly realize that I haven't taken a breath in like 30 seconds. Likewise, conscious breathing exercises help my condition.

I would LOVE to see a formal study measuring the breathing patterns of afibbers vs. non-afibbers. I wouldn't be surprised if big differences were found. Anybody want to take me up on that?

You might have to be tricky about it and tell the subjects that you were measuring something else (so that they don't focus on their breath and inadvertently change it).

Nick - some years ago, I took Buteyko breathing/training classses. I posted here multiple times on the benefits. Here's one link from 2008 but there were others prior to that. You can find more at the Buteyko link in the article. I found two main advantages... the alkalizing effect from increasing the CO2 levels and the calming effect just from the discipline.
There is a caution with using this method: Go very slowly and follow instructions precisely.... you won't feel well if you do too much to quickly.

Jackie

<[www.afibbers.org];

Peggy,

Yes, here in central Massachusetts we have vernal pools deep in the woods where tree frogs go to court and mate.

Daffodils are up along the roadsides (planted by a lady along the roads all over this country town). Forsythia and Magnolia are out in Amherst, which is to the west of us, but not here.

Please tell me how you use mint to keep mosquitoes away.

I grow mint to scatter in drawers to keep mice away from woolens - they like to go after sweaters for nesting materials in the winter. It works! Better by far than toxic moth balls.

Nick,

My breathing tends to be shallow, too. At times I almost forget to breathe! I try to do the Andrew Weil breathing exercises. He recommends doing the "4 in, hold for 7, 8 out" in two sets, twice a day.

I, too, wonder if as a rule, afibbers have shallow breathing.

I then wonder if repressed feelings and emotions are responsible for restricted breathing.

Dr. John Sarno's theory of TMS - Tension Myosotis Syndrome - would explain this phenomenon.

Carol

Mint for mosquitoes: Some time back i found that if i took a handful of young lemon balm stems and rolled them between my hands to bruise them and rubbed all exposed parts with the crumpled handfull of lemon balm, the mosquitoes did not bite me. There are some vicious biting deerflies in that clime who just don't stand on ceremony, they fly right up to you and take a bite wherever they happen to hit. After the lemon balm treatment they fly right at you just as usual, but they hover and buzz and do not land. I like that. I tried various mints and they all work. In my front yard near the daffodils there is a fine patch of chocolate mint overgrowing the rhubarb. It works just fine. I rub it all over Grace and me before we go into the woods, and if i missed a spot the skeeters will show it to me, and i pull out the pocketfull of mint i pulled before we left and treat that place. After a few hours it will wear off, and if you are caught in the rain it will wash off, but nothing is perfect. I like it, it costs nothing and the mint needs thinning anyway. So far i have not found ticks on Gracie or me after this treatment. Perhaps the ticks do not like mint either. How sad - NOT.

PeggyM

I am a shallow breather too and have caught myself not breathing at times. fwiw

Adrian

Jackie,

Thanks very much! I hadn't been aware of that method. I'll look into it and report on how I do here.

Looks like we have some shallow breathers here. Can any of you who read this thread confidently say that you're a "good" breather? I'd like to find counter examples to my hypothesis, in the form of someone who says "I breathe very well and still quite afflicted with LAF".

Good thought, Nick. My professional work was seated, "scruched over a patient" in an attempt to visually and manually access the oral cavity so I could do dental hygiene seeing 10-12 patients a day. I am sure I was a shallow breather because of being in such close proximity - almost nose to nose - even though the mask was a barrier.

One of the reasons I took the Buteyko was to learn about better breathing habits... for me, it's a difficult discipline when I'm sitting.... I have always been a shallow breather...now that I think about it. Now that I'm retired and and spend several hours at the computer, I am aware of the same scrunched midsection...and I periodically take breathing breaks... I definitely breathe different when I'm moving around but at the computer... I'm guilty. Thanks for the reminder!!!!

Jackie

Yes, I was told I was a shallow breather years ago by a nurse. Interesting idea.

Interesting hypothesis, Nick

I wouldn't be surprised if both posture and emotional stress are major contributors to afib - especially since tall people who are known to be prone to afib, don't always stand up straight, and also tend to scrunch down in front of computers.

This could mean that the diaphragm (and heart) would be deprived of oxygen.

Carol

I guess I will play Devil's advocate to this argument. You asked is anyone a good breather and still have a problem? I believe i am a very good breather lets just say. I run several road races, have a tremendous capacity for exercise, can swin underwater for long periods, can hold my breath for 4 min, and since I am in the medical profession have done testing on myself and by my definition I am a good breather. Oxygen saturation is a simple and easy measurement with a light on a finger and a monitor and I am usually 98-99% saturation on room air and just sitting breathing normal.

I had 30 episodes in 4 months, some sitting, some running, some after eating, one after a cold milk shake, some while sleeping. I really doubt that breathing is an issue for most. Most people breath quite well and fine IMO without having to learn that. When we need to take a breath we do as the body will not deprive us of oxygen and when the CO2 rises the brain says, "breathe". With that said, breathing exercises and therefore stress release and meditation could be very valuable to decreasing afib episodes but for the stress release, not for the extra oxygen or decreased CO2. By the way most people unless very obese breath quite normal and even if you stopped for 30 seconds, your body will breathe when it needs to and if you monitor what happens after 30 seconds to oxygen saturation in 30 sec, well nothing bad really. It wont really drop at all.

Gregg - The Buteyko method of breathing focuses on optimizing the amount of retained CO2. You can google to read more. Lots of info.

The person from whom I took the training is a Registered Respiratory Therapist who travels throughout the country teaching this breathing technique. She was a severe asthma victim and completely healed with Buteyko and she was so impressed she changed careers and became an RT and a Buteyko instructor. Buteyko is known to reverse asthma, sleep apnea, bronchitis type issues, allergies and many other breathing related conditions.
[www.correctbreathing.com]
===

As for the connection between afib and marathoners and hobby runners, over the years, we have many had many intense athletes and/or runners who are in excellent physical condition be suddenly surprised with the onset of AF. There is a link between free radical damage/ROS/oxidative stress and afib so it's not surprising that in some people, they are affected. Those speaking on the topic of oxidative stress damage never fail to mention the adverse effects or cellular and DNA damage and mutations. I've often wondered to what extent the heart mitochondrial DNA is damaged and if that is the source of AF for intense exercisers since the heart has the most abundant supply of mitochondria than any other organ.

Eric Braverman, MD, often discusses free radical damage when talking about early signs of aging... including appearance... and of course, he promotes abundant antioxidants from food sources... and supplements as a preventive.

Jackie

Gregg,

You may play the Devil's Advocate, but I will assume the role of "The Skeptic"

What you say is the perfect, text book version of the way the human body is supposed to function.

One of the reasons we have doctors is because the human body does not always function optimally according to medical school lectures and text books.

Therefore, I submit that breathing does not always occur in the text book way. There may be reduced exchanges of oxygen and CO2 due to impaired, shallow breathing. These patterns may become ingrained - habitual. Less than perfect breathing may be due to stress - the "fight or flight" response of "holding one's breath," and/or posture.

Carol

Good points all. In response to Greg's devil's advocacy: Yeah, I've met several other athlete AFers who I'd be hard pressed to call bad breathers.

Still, for myself, I definitely have a strong sense that there is something wrong with my breathing when I'm not attending to it. Not sure if it has anything to do with co2/oxygen levels. Could be more directly related to regulation of nervous system.

I feel that one of the big obstacles to progress in understanding LAF is that the genesis of our problems are highly heterogeneous.

Excellent discussion. I agree with most of it. Jackie I totally think you are on point with the free radicals in extreme exercise which could have been my problem. Carol I was answering to the Nick question did anyone who is a good breather have afib and I think I qualify. I agree that breathing could be a problem. I am an anesthesiologist, work with patients and breathing every day, work and see sleep apnea patients, have good repoire with Resp therapy( i love them) and my point was not that breathing is not a problem in some as it may well be, but not in EVERYONE, not in ME in my opinion.

I am a shallow breather too but I think having AF makes you one! It seems to me to be an attempt not to feel the bonks and donks as when you breathe deeply in AF, you feel it more. Well I do anyway.

Yep, VERY shallow breather here too. When sat for extended period in a cool room, I seem to go into a semi-dormant mode body-wise (with just my brain working - I think!) where my HR drops to mid 40s and my breathing is very shallow and barely perceptible. Sometimes I kind of come out of this in moment of slight panic as my state of mind gets a little surreal! And I'm 6'5" tall and a bit of a slumper too.
Mike F.

A few breathing links:

Here's some more info on Butekyo breathing:
<[www.afibbers.org];

<[www.afibbers.org];

Also:

This book, written by a Buteyko teacher, addresses both apnea & CPAP machines: "Freedom from Insomnia: The Natural Way to Solve Sleep Problems by Alexander Stalmatski."

[www.amazon.com]

The Buteyko concept is that overbreathing drives serum CO2 levels too low & causes the apnea (& other issues, like asthma).

When I first was exposed to Buteyko, it was completely counterintuitive. After looking into it, the data supports the concept.

The simple solution is to tape your mouth shut during sleep. The idea is that when you overbreathe, your CO2 level gets too low, then you have a pause. By breathing through your nose, you prevent this.

=====================================================
This guy played around with a radial pulse monitor, formerly known as "Freezeframer", to determine that the optimal breath rate was 6 seconds & 6 seconds out.

[www.coherence.com]

The device has been rebranded as emWave Desktop:
[www.heartmathstore.com]
You can see some screen prints from the device in CR52 [www.afibbers.org] Hans, PC & myself all have one.

The RESPeRATE device is a breathing monitor that trains you to breath at 10 breaths per minute. 15 minutes of use per day has been shown to reduce blood pressure. [www.resperate.com]

Also there is Ujjayi breathing [en.wikipedia.org]. This is a yogic technique whereby you constrict the glottis slightly on breathing. In his John Doullard's book, Body, Mind, and Sport, he uses the technique on exhale for exercise. He starts out with a few minutes of the yogic "Sun Salutation" exercise while doing the Ujjayi breath through the nose - 5 seconds on each pose with inhale on the extension poses and exhale on the flexion. After a few rounds of the Sun Salute, he continues the Ujjayi breath (which he calls "Darth Vader breathing" because of the sound) into slow exercise. The intensity of the exercise continues, all the while continuing the breathing. The net effect is meditative exercise. He got some very interesting results, such as a 40 year old running 17 miles at a 6 min/mile pace with his heart rate averaging 120 and his breath rate 12 to 15 breaths per minute.

General info on Ujjayi:
[www.google.com]

More on Doullards approach:
<[www.afibbers.org];

[www.afibbers.org] p 29

My hypothesis is that all of these techniques increase CO2 levels by reducing overbreathing.

George

Gregg,

This was the "standard text book" type comment that you made that I questioned:

"Most people breath quite well and fine IMO without having to learn that. When we need to take a breath we do as the body will not deprive us of oxygen and when the CO2 rises the brain says, "breathe". With that said, breathing exercises and therefore stress release and meditation could be very valuable to decreasing afib episodes but for the stress release, not for the extra oxygen or decreased CO2. By the way most people unless very obese breath quite normal and even if you stopped for 30 seconds, your body will breathe when it needs to and if you monitor what happens after 30 seconds to oxygen saturation in 30 sec, well nothing bad really"

Stressed out people and affibers may very well not follow the usual rule of breathing

Thanks George for links...
I was a mouth breather before my sleep apnea diagnosis likely because of chronic nasal congestion. My respiratory technician "prescribed" a nasal mask for my cpap with a chin strap. The chin strap didn't keep my mouth shut so I started taping my mouth shut at night with the nasal mask. I am no longer a mouth breather even during the day after 2 years of this protocol and have significantly less nasal congestion.
Interesting stuff.
Cyndie

Thanks George for finding all those links. Yes, it's increased CO2 that makes the difference.

When this Buteyko, RT person gives a lecture, it's fascinating to watch her talk and breathe as she visibly closes her mouth and hesitates for a few seconds rhythmically to ensure that she retains that CO2.

As far as anyone trying the 'taping one's mouth shut' while sleeping... it is important to emphasize that you use paper tape to avoid skin irritation and also that for safety reasons, to fold over one end of the tape for so it can be gripped easily and removed fast if need be.

Jackie

Yes Jackie...absolutely paper tape and turning of the corner. Even so, I do occasionally remove skin from my lip...painful but worth it to me.
Cyndie

Carol, just cause I am a physician doesn't mean you get to tell me the "standard textbook answer" LOL. Yes stressed out people, afibbers, people that are obese, people who smoke, that have a sick child, lost dog, pregnant hamster can all breathe differently but scientifically nothing about breathing or not breathing has been shown to induces afib.