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steve
Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 05:23AM |
I began this long process as a skeptic of supplements and diet as treatment. Having once been an administrator of a health agency, I was very wary of the kinds of claims that too frequently lured patients away from the traditional care they needed.
What is apparent, and delightful, about this site is that Jackie, Hans and many others do not reject traditional medicine for their own personal gain - they embrace a genuinely holistic approach to our baffling condition.
My story is more interesting to me than anyone else, but certainly supports the "we are all experiments of one" and the value of openness to alternative approaches.
I suffered periodic a-fib for years - never diagnosed -usually denied. I have been an endurance athlete for 30 years. In 2007 it got significantly worse, escalating to episodes as long as 19 days in duration. I had an ablation in March, 2008.
After typical post-procedure yips I enjoyed NSR for 7 months. At that point I began having short episodes, nearly always triggered by swallowing. I had an endoscopy, a motility test, etc. Doctors were baffled. I experienced arrhythmia nearly every day, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.
I thus had a 2nd ablation in December 2008. The next morning the first bite of breakfast triggered a brief episode. To say I was frustrated is understatement. I tried, in an admittedly disorganized way, every supplement I could identify as potentially useful. Nothing got better, although nothing got worse either. From December 2008 until June 2009 I had nearly daily episodes, always resolving, with varied duration from 30 seconds to 3 or 4 hours. I also had occasional vagal incidents in the early morning, not associated with eating. But, nearly all of my episodes were triggered by swallowing. Not diet. It didn't matter what I ate - it was the act of eating. Immediately, frequently with the first bite. My longest streak without a-fib was 5 days in June. Only recently did I look back on my log (ironically, my training log turned into my a-fib log!) and found a very clear association between frequency and duration of events and my meager efforts to supplement with magnesium. I also found that exercise, including intense training, and other supposed triggers, including alcohol, seemed to have no effect.
I then noticed (stupid me) that I was only supplementing with 200mgs of magnesium during those periods when I was slightly better.
In December 2009 I upped to 400 mg daily. I enjoyed 14 days in NSR. When the streak was broken, I added 200 mg daily. 11 more days in NSR. When that streak was broken with one 90 minute episode, I added 100 mg more.
I am now at 37 blissful days of NSR and counting. Before increasing magnesium I felt sensitivity as a prelude to a-fib whenever I ate, even if NSR prevailed. I feel no such sensitivity now.
Now, I don't claim that magnesium is the sole reason I am feeling quite confident. The first ablation certainly eliminated both the severity and duration of episodes. The fact that my subsequent episodes self-terminated fairly quickly is testimony to the efficacy of that procedure. But I am quite certain that magnesium is the effective variable now and that the second ablation could have been avoided completely, had I heeded the good advice on this forum.
Magnesium is not witchcraft. Every mainstream site acknowledges that magnesium deficiency is among the triggers. Research clearly shows the efficacy of IV magnesium in preventing post-operative arrhythmia. It is standard protocol in surgical suites around the world. If these things are clearly known (and therefore obliquely acknowledging the importance of intracellular magnesium), why would supplementation not be a standard treatment option?
I have opined on the forum that the correlation between long term endurance exercise and a-fib MAY be because of long term magnesium depletion. If that's the case, endurance athletes should be supplementing long before arrhythmia visits.
At any rate, I speculate (and admit it is speculation), that my primary problem was successfully treated by ablation, but left the underlying cellular predisposition, and that cellular "sensitivity" left heart tissue vulnerable when swallowing. I could literally feel the precise moment when food passed through the esophagus and stimulated the arrhythmia.
Now, with several months of consistent magnesium, I have no such feeling whatsoever. Could it simply be the passage of time? Perhaps. But the association is so striking that it would be witchcraft to deny it.
I am extraordinarily grateful to Jackie and others for their gentle persistence. If they were not equally open to traditional treatment, I probably wouldn't have listened.
I hope this long missive is helpful to anyone who is struggling with the inner debate about the efficacy of alternative approaches.
Steve
What is apparent, and delightful, about this site is that Jackie, Hans and many others do not reject traditional medicine for their own personal gain - they embrace a genuinely holistic approach to our baffling condition.
My story is more interesting to me than anyone else, but certainly supports the "we are all experiments of one" and the value of openness to alternative approaches.
I suffered periodic a-fib for years - never diagnosed -usually denied. I have been an endurance athlete for 30 years. In 2007 it got significantly worse, escalating to episodes as long as 19 days in duration. I had an ablation in March, 2008.
After typical post-procedure yips I enjoyed NSR for 7 months. At that point I began having short episodes, nearly always triggered by swallowing. I had an endoscopy, a motility test, etc. Doctors were baffled. I experienced arrhythmia nearly every day, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day.
I thus had a 2nd ablation in December 2008. The next morning the first bite of breakfast triggered a brief episode. To say I was frustrated is understatement. I tried, in an admittedly disorganized way, every supplement I could identify as potentially useful. Nothing got better, although nothing got worse either. From December 2008 until June 2009 I had nearly daily episodes, always resolving, with varied duration from 30 seconds to 3 or 4 hours. I also had occasional vagal incidents in the early morning, not associated with eating. But, nearly all of my episodes were triggered by swallowing. Not diet. It didn't matter what I ate - it was the act of eating. Immediately, frequently with the first bite. My longest streak without a-fib was 5 days in June. Only recently did I look back on my log (ironically, my training log turned into my a-fib log!) and found a very clear association between frequency and duration of events and my meager efforts to supplement with magnesium. I also found that exercise, including intense training, and other supposed triggers, including alcohol, seemed to have no effect.
I then noticed (stupid me) that I was only supplementing with 200mgs of magnesium during those periods when I was slightly better.
In December 2009 I upped to 400 mg daily. I enjoyed 14 days in NSR. When the streak was broken, I added 200 mg daily. 11 more days in NSR. When that streak was broken with one 90 minute episode, I added 100 mg more.
I am now at 37 blissful days of NSR and counting. Before increasing magnesium I felt sensitivity as a prelude to a-fib whenever I ate, even if NSR prevailed. I feel no such sensitivity now.
Now, I don't claim that magnesium is the sole reason I am feeling quite confident. The first ablation certainly eliminated both the severity and duration of episodes. The fact that my subsequent episodes self-terminated fairly quickly is testimony to the efficacy of that procedure. But I am quite certain that magnesium is the effective variable now and that the second ablation could have been avoided completely, had I heeded the good advice on this forum.
Magnesium is not witchcraft. Every mainstream site acknowledges that magnesium deficiency is among the triggers. Research clearly shows the efficacy of IV magnesium in preventing post-operative arrhythmia. It is standard protocol in surgical suites around the world. If these things are clearly known (and therefore obliquely acknowledging the importance of intracellular magnesium), why would supplementation not be a standard treatment option?
I have opined on the forum that the correlation between long term endurance exercise and a-fib MAY be because of long term magnesium depletion. If that's the case, endurance athletes should be supplementing long before arrhythmia visits.
At any rate, I speculate (and admit it is speculation), that my primary problem was successfully treated by ablation, but left the underlying cellular predisposition, and that cellular "sensitivity" left heart tissue vulnerable when swallowing. I could literally feel the precise moment when food passed through the esophagus and stimulated the arrhythmia.
Now, with several months of consistent magnesium, I have no such feeling whatsoever. Could it simply be the passage of time? Perhaps. But the association is so striking that it would be witchcraft to deny it.
I am extraordinarily grateful to Jackie and others for their gentle persistence. If they were not equally open to traditional treatment, I probably wouldn't have listened.
I hope this long missive is helpful to anyone who is struggling with the inner debate about the efficacy of alternative approaches.
Steve
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Carol
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 05:51AM |
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GeorgeN
The List: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 06:43AM |
Hi Steve,
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm marking it for "The List" for a future update of CR 61.
Like you, I'm in the category of chronically fit people & I'm convinced it was magnesium depletion that was a big factor in my getting afib. Fortunately, with a significant Mg++ intake (along with K+ & taurine), I've been able to stay in remission except for a total of about 10 hours of afib in five years. On the "traditional" medical side, PIP flecainide has converted me quickly on the occasions I have gone into afib. Additionally, most of the episodes of afib I've had since starting supplements are correlated either with reducing supplements (2x for lack of taurine & 1x for a complete cessation of supps), 3x with a large increase in exercise workload (long backpacks at high (>11,000') elevation, once with electrolyte depletion from the natriuresis that accompanies the initiation of eating ketogenically.
Certainly supplements can't help all, however my feeling is they should at least be tried in a significant way for all as they carry little risk (assuming healthy kidneys).
George
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm marking it for "The List" for a future update of CR 61.
Like you, I'm in the category of chronically fit people & I'm convinced it was magnesium depletion that was a big factor in my getting afib. Fortunately, with a significant Mg++ intake (along with K+ & taurine), I've been able to stay in remission except for a total of about 10 hours of afib in five years. On the "traditional" medical side, PIP flecainide has converted me quickly on the occasions I have gone into afib. Additionally, most of the episodes of afib I've had since starting supplements are correlated either with reducing supplements (2x for lack of taurine & 1x for a complete cessation of supps), 3x with a large increase in exercise workload (long backpacks at high (>11,000') elevation, once with electrolyte depletion from the natriuresis that accompanies the initiation of eating ketogenically.
Certainly supplements can't help all, however my feeling is they should at least be tried in a significant way for all as they carry little risk (assuming healthy kidneys).
George
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Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 12:00PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 18,890 |
Hello Steve!
Reading your eloquent post has certainly made my day!
My hat is off to you for opening your mind and deciding to embark on your own 'experiment of one.' I am so very pleased for you and your results. Thank you for your kind comments.
Magnesium is, without a doubt, the most powerful 'tool' in every afibbers kit.
I'd like to emphasize once again that every afibber should own a copy of Mildred Seelig's book... The Magnesium Factor. I began reading it again just the other evening. It is filled from cover to cover with the science behind why we need magnesium and it's very easy to understand. Truly a masterpiece by this Dr. Seeling who devoted her life to researching magnesium.
I wish you continued success and a lifetime of NSR,
Jackie
As for exercisers and afib... here's are some selected excerpts:
The Effect of Exercise on Magnesium Status
The more intense the exercise, the more magnesium is needed to burn glucose for energy production to meet the needs of the straining muscles. And the sweating caused by vigorous exercise causes magnesium loss. Both these factors contribute to magnesium deficiency, which in turn, increases the risk of arrhythmia or chest pain that can signal coronary artery spasms or occlusion.
When you exercise, whether in short bursts or during intense training, adrenaline is released and magnesium moves- from the blood to the cells and from cells to the blood. Many investigators have tried to determine the effect of exercise on magnesium status by measuring changes in the amount of magnesium in the blood during exercise. But, as we will see in later chapters, serum magnesium (the level of magnesium in a blood sample from which blood cells have been removed) does not reliably reflect the magnesium status of the whole body, so these studies have not yielded consistent results. In general blood magnesium levels change during exercise, but not consistently.
In a bout of exercise, such as a 40-minute run, plasma magnesium decreases while adrenaline increases. But such exercise can also cause a rise in serum magnesium because of a shift from the cells and a decrease in plasma volume. With protracted exercise, however, serum magnesium levels can fall. These dynamics of magnesium, shifting from blood to cells and cells to blood are complicated and not fully understood. But it is clear that exercise and the release of the adrenaline it stimulates cause shifts of magnesium into the bodys exercise-active sites and away from inactive regions. If you do not have enough backup magnesium, this can be a problem.
When Exercise is Bad for You
If the bodys cells are low in magnesium, stress such as exercise- can be dangerous because it causes the release of adrenaline and a sudden shift in magnesium from the cells to the blood, further lowering magnesium in cells to dangerously inadequate e levels. The heart is particularly vulnerable to exercise stress-induced magnesium loss because the magnesium in heart cells is rapidly exchangeable. This means the heart can take up magnesium quickly, which is a protective capacity. But it can also rapidly release it, so this capacity is a double-edge sword. When the cells of coronary arteries become deficient in magnesium, a situation that is accompanied by a shifting of calcium into the cells, they constrict, thereby interfering with blood bringing oxygen to heart cells.
If there are not adequate body stores to back up the initial burst or long-term usage of magnesium, signs of the magnesium deficiency can become manifest. This can happen in the fit as well as the unfit, the thin and well as the obese.
The intense physical exertion of training worsens nutritional deficits, which if severe, can then become obvious. In someone with a magnesium deficit even a borderline one, but especially a more severe deficiency an intense bout of physical exercise or an extended period of intense training can be dangerous regardless of the individuals aerobic fitness or muscle strength.
How Magnesium Status Affects the Response to Exercise
Taking magnesium supplements can enhance exercise performance in people with heart disease as well as in athletes. Adequate magnesium improves both the utilization of glucose and the bodys response to the stress of exercise. It also improves strength and endurance and can prevent or reduce muscle cramping during and after exercise.
Clips from pp 94-98
Source:
The Magnesium Factor
Mildred Seelig, MD, MPH, MACN
Avery Publishing Penguin Group
New York, NY
© 2003
ISBN 1 58333-156-5
$10.74 + $2.95 shipping at Overstock.com
In Memoriam Mildred Seelig, M.D., MPH, MACN (1920-2005), Executive Director of the American College of Nutrition (ACN), who passed away 14th January 2005.
She was recognized as the leading international authority in magnesium research
Reading your eloquent post has certainly made my day!
My hat is off to you for opening your mind and deciding to embark on your own 'experiment of one.' I am so very pleased for you and your results. Thank you for your kind comments.
Magnesium is, without a doubt, the most powerful 'tool' in every afibbers kit.
I'd like to emphasize once again that every afibber should own a copy of Mildred Seelig's book... The Magnesium Factor. I began reading it again just the other evening. It is filled from cover to cover with the science behind why we need magnesium and it's very easy to understand. Truly a masterpiece by this Dr. Seeling who devoted her life to researching magnesium.
I wish you continued success and a lifetime of NSR,
Jackie
As for exercisers and afib... here's are some selected excerpts:
The Effect of Exercise on Magnesium Status
The more intense the exercise, the more magnesium is needed to burn glucose for energy production to meet the needs of the straining muscles. And the sweating caused by vigorous exercise causes magnesium loss. Both these factors contribute to magnesium deficiency, which in turn, increases the risk of arrhythmia or chest pain that can signal coronary artery spasms or occlusion.
When you exercise, whether in short bursts or during intense training, adrenaline is released and magnesium moves- from the blood to the cells and from cells to the blood. Many investigators have tried to determine the effect of exercise on magnesium status by measuring changes in the amount of magnesium in the blood during exercise. But, as we will see in later chapters, serum magnesium (the level of magnesium in a blood sample from which blood cells have been removed) does not reliably reflect the magnesium status of the whole body, so these studies have not yielded consistent results. In general blood magnesium levels change during exercise, but not consistently.
In a bout of exercise, such as a 40-minute run, plasma magnesium decreases while adrenaline increases. But such exercise can also cause a rise in serum magnesium because of a shift from the cells and a decrease in plasma volume. With protracted exercise, however, serum magnesium levels can fall. These dynamics of magnesium, shifting from blood to cells and cells to blood are complicated and not fully understood. But it is clear that exercise and the release of the adrenaline it stimulates cause shifts of magnesium into the bodys exercise-active sites and away from inactive regions. If you do not have enough backup magnesium, this can be a problem.
When Exercise is Bad for You
If the bodys cells are low in magnesium, stress such as exercise- can be dangerous because it causes the release of adrenaline and a sudden shift in magnesium from the cells to the blood, further lowering magnesium in cells to dangerously inadequate e levels. The heart is particularly vulnerable to exercise stress-induced magnesium loss because the magnesium in heart cells is rapidly exchangeable. This means the heart can take up magnesium quickly, which is a protective capacity. But it can also rapidly release it, so this capacity is a double-edge sword. When the cells of coronary arteries become deficient in magnesium, a situation that is accompanied by a shifting of calcium into the cells, they constrict, thereby interfering with blood bringing oxygen to heart cells.
If there are not adequate body stores to back up the initial burst or long-term usage of magnesium, signs of the magnesium deficiency can become manifest. This can happen in the fit as well as the unfit, the thin and well as the obese.
The intense physical exertion of training worsens nutritional deficits, which if severe, can then become obvious. In someone with a magnesium deficit even a borderline one, but especially a more severe deficiency an intense bout of physical exercise or an extended period of intense training can be dangerous regardless of the individuals aerobic fitness or muscle strength.
How Magnesium Status Affects the Response to Exercise
Taking magnesium supplements can enhance exercise performance in people with heart disease as well as in athletes. Adequate magnesium improves both the utilization of glucose and the bodys response to the stress of exercise. It also improves strength and endurance and can prevent or reduce muscle cramping during and after exercise.
Clips from pp 94-98
Source:
The Magnesium Factor
Mildred Seelig, MD, MPH, MACN
Avery Publishing Penguin Group
New York, NY
© 2003
ISBN 1 58333-156-5
$10.74 + $2.95 shipping at Overstock.com
In Memoriam Mildred Seelig, M.D., MPH, MACN (1920-2005), Executive Director of the American College of Nutrition (ACN), who passed away 14th January 2005.
She was recognized as the leading international authority in magnesium research
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Scott
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 12:47PM |
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GeorgeN
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 02:10PM |
Scott,
Many take Magnesium Glycinate. I take the KAL brand, many others take the Doctor's Best, High Absorption Magnesium. Both are available through Hans's vitamin store: [www.afibbers.org]
Many also take Magnesium Bicarbonate in the form of "Waller Water" [www.afibbers.org]
Also topical or transdermal use of Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt) or Magnesium Chloride (Magnesium Oil). For suggestions on how to apply topically, see: <[www.enzymestuff.com]>
Assuming you have healthy kidneys, you should start with a small dose and gradually add to it until you reach bowel tolerance (runny stools), then back off slightly.
Jackie referenced Dr. Seelig's book. An earlier book of her's is online [www.mgwater.com]
I also recommend The Magnesium Factor," however you can get the flavor of it in the online version of her earlier book.
George
Many take Magnesium Glycinate. I take the KAL brand, many others take the Doctor's Best, High Absorption Magnesium. Both are available through Hans's vitamin store: [www.afibbers.org]
Many also take Magnesium Bicarbonate in the form of "Waller Water" [www.afibbers.org]
Also topical or transdermal use of Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt) or Magnesium Chloride (Magnesium Oil). For suggestions on how to apply topically, see: <[www.enzymestuff.com]>
Assuming you have healthy kidneys, you should start with a small dose and gradually add to it until you reach bowel tolerance (runny stools), then back off slightly.
Jackie referenced Dr. Seelig's book. An earlier book of her's is online [www.mgwater.com]
I also recommend The Magnesium Factor," however you can get the flavor of it in the online version of her earlier book.
George
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Hans Larsen
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 02:33PM |
Steve,
Thank you for sharing your "love story". The philosophy of this board, in general terms, can perhaps be summed up as follows:
A) We are all an experiment of one.
Knowledge is power.
C) Whatever works for you (diet changes, supplements, drugs, ablations, etc.) is great as long as the benefit/risk ratio is favourable.
Hans
Thank you for sharing your "love story". The philosophy of this board, in general terms, can perhaps be summed up as follows:
A) We are all an experiment of one.
Knowledge is power.C) Whatever works for you (diet changes, supplements, drugs, ablations, etc.) is great as long as the benefit/risk ratio is favourable.
Hans
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Sharon Glass
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 07:01PM |
Steve, what a great testimony to what can happen when you have an open mind. I think it is a fact that we cannot deny that medication, surgery and supplements all have their place in a person's life, we just have to try and find the right fit.
I like Hans A, B, C's of the philosophy of this board, may we all write it down and stick it on our monitor so we can see it everytime we respond to someone who is seeking help.
May you stay in NSR from now on. Sharon
I like Hans A, B, C's of the philosophy of this board, may we all write it down and stick it on our monitor so we can see it everytime we respond to someone who is seeking help.
May you stay in NSR from now on. Sharon
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James Wayman
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 01, 2010 08:26PM |
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PeggyM
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 02, 2010 01:28AM |
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Margaret
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 02, 2010 03:20AM |
Steve,
Thank you so much for this post. You not only made Jackie's day you made mine too. I had an ablation Sept. 08 which kept me in blissfull N.S.R for eleven months & then ,wham, I had 3 episodes, each approx. 8 hours in the space of about 6 weeks. As this was my 2nd. ablation I, absolutely, did not want to go back to Bordeaux, especially as I believe I knew the cause, stress. Of course ,I uploaded my worries on to the board & was advised to slowly increase the amount of supplements I was taking. I did this. Iam now on 900mg. of magnesium daily & its made a big difference. I've had one small episode since, same cause ,stress . I know this is something I should be able to deal with & most times I am. The big battle, against A.Fib I feel more hopeful about, magnesium is the miracle supplement. It was great hearing about your success & I am sure your story gave hope to many afibbers .
God bless
Margaret
Thank you so much for this post. You not only made Jackie's day you made mine too. I had an ablation Sept. 08 which kept me in blissfull N.S.R for eleven months & then ,wham, I had 3 episodes, each approx. 8 hours in the space of about 6 weeks. As this was my 2nd. ablation I, absolutely, did not want to go back to Bordeaux, especially as I believe I knew the cause, stress. Of course ,I uploaded my worries on to the board & was advised to slowly increase the amount of supplements I was taking. I did this. Iam now on 900mg. of magnesium daily & its made a big difference. I've had one small episode since, same cause ,stress . I know this is something I should be able to deal with & most times I am. The big battle, against A.Fib I feel more hopeful about, magnesium is the miracle supplement. It was great hearing about your success & I am sure your story gave hope to many afibbers .
God bless
Margaret
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steve
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 02, 2010 04:10AM |
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Re: Magnesium - a love story March 02, 2010 12:53PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 18,890 |
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Re: Magnesium - a love story March 02, 2010 12:56PM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 18,890 |
Okay Steve... so this brand delivers 100 mg elemental Mg in each capsule..(? right) ....so you that's good information. Of course, your needs may be different than other afibbers but I have always felt that somewhere around 800 mg (elemental) was an appropriate dose for my biochemistry so this gives us more support for pur 'sort of' a ball-park estimate.
Thanks. Jackie
Thanks. Jackie
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steve
Re: Magnesium - a love story March 03, 2010 01:13AM |
Yes, Doctor's Best is 100 Mg elemental each. I have not had bowel problems, so can probably up the dose if I sense it necessary. For now the 700 Mg regimen seems just right. I did run out of Doctor's Best at one point and used KAL for a few days (they are 200 Mg pills). I experienced no loss of efficacy.
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Re: Magnesium - a love story March 03, 2010 05:12AM |
Registered: 8 years ago Posts: 18,890 |
Steve - that's the key.... if you titrate dosing up slowly enough, you are able to use the least amount that is effective for your needs without flirting with bowel tolerance issues. If, for some reason, you start having any heart activity, then you'll know what you need to do. Keep us posted.
Jackie
Jackie
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Re: Magnesium - a love story June 14, 2020 08:45PM |
Registered: 5 years ago Posts: 108 |
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