Re: Potassium and insulin response

There are a lot of claims made here for which it is hard to find any good evidence. Is potassium really preserved on a low-carb diet?

Certainly it has been suggested that there is severe electrolyte loss (including potassium) on ketogenic diets - potassium is lost when muscle glycogen is lost (see e.g. "Glycogen storage: illusions of easy weight loss, excessive weight regain, and distortions in estimates of body composition3" - [ajcn.nutrition.org]).

Supplemental potassium is generally recommended on a low-carbohydrate diet and especially on a ketogenic diet (see:
The Ketogenic Diet, A Complete Guide for the Dieter and Practitioner by Lyle McDonald).

Additionally, many people find it hard to exercise more than just gently on a ketogenic diet (that's certainly the case with me) - again, this is due to depleted muscle glycogen.

And a comment about wheat: while wheat may not be the ideal food, I think it is ludicrous to suggest that wheat or some particular variety of wheat is the cause of obesity. You get fat by consuming too much food - there is no other reason. Body fat has to come from somewhere - it does not appear out of the air. If wheat is in any way linked to weight gain then it is because it has an influence on the hormones which control hunger. There are plenty of genuinely slim people who eat wheat and plenty of fat people who don't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2012 12:23PM by Hans Larsen.

Mark m - the utilization both magnesium and potassium in the production of insulin (to metabolize carbohydrate intake) is factual because it's a matter of the body's basic biochemistry. Check out the many posts by George N and his exercise/stamina experiences and his own afib story with the ketogenic diet. Many people benefit greatly from a ketogenic diet; others do well with low carbs rather than going into continual ketosis. CR 73 on this topic

This is very relevant to arrhythmia because any factor that promotes a continual deficit of the minerals/electrolytes needed to maintain NSR is an influence on whether or not we can maintain NSR

The point to remember is that for a healthy long life, we need to minimize production of the Advanced Glycation End Products (AGEs) that result from carb intake where tissue 'carmelizes' as we age. The fewer carbs the better because keeping the insulin response very low and steady maintains optimal health. When we continually have to adjust for glucose spikes and resulting insulin production, eventually, some detrimental effects begin to show up - adrenals burn out, kidney function lessens and chronic degenerative diseases show up... first on the list is Alzheimer's and cancer among many others.

As mentioned previously, Dr. Rosedale's presentation on Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects offers an excellent explanation.

As for the wheat comment.... generally, that's true...continual overconsumption of food regardless of what it is without appropriate exercise to offset is a common cause of obesity. We have become a nation of couch potatoes. However, what lies at the heart of that is the insulin response and very often, a burnout of that system that leads to insulin resistance and then the ultimate weight gain that is nearly impossible to get off without reversing the insulin resistance. It's often a Catch 22 scenario that goes undiagnosed by typical medical assessments.

Gluten and related sensitivities are an important factor as well. The new gluten-sensitivity testing methods that evaluate various cross reactivities to the gluten/gliaden protein relates to 24 other common foods reactions and that can cause multiple health problems in sensitive individuals who have a myriad of health problems including weight gain.

These cross-reactive foods include Cow's milk, Alpha Casein and Beta Casein, Casamorphin, Milk butyrophilin, American Cheese, Chocolate, Sesame, Hemp, Rye, Barley, Polish Wheat, Millet, Spelt, Amaranth, Quinona, Yeast, Tapicoca, Oats, Coffee, Corn, Rice, Potato.

Jackie

Jackie,

You cannot keep insulin response low by simply restricting carbs. Protein is also highly insulinogenic and this has been known for years. A comparison of the insulin response of many different foods was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition in 1997: An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods. (free full text).

What the above study tells you is, for example, that the insulin response to plain beef or plain fish is greater than the insulin response to white pasta. Plain fish produces the same response as brown rice.

The branched-chain amino acid leucine seems to be at least partly responsible for protein's effect on insulin release: Leucine metabolism in regulation of insulin secretion from pancreatic beta cells. (This tells that insulin release is nothing to do with glucuneogenesis from the protein).

If there are any potassium-sparing effects of low-carbohydrate diets then they are either nothing to do with insulin or they only work on low-protein, low-carb diets, which by definition would have to consist mainly of fat.

And it just is not true that "The fewer carbs the better because keeping the insulin response very low and steady maintains optimal health", though there may be other health benefits of keeping carbs low that are unrelated to insulin.

Mark

This post was moved from another thread to ensure continuity in the discussion. - Hans



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2012 12:26PM by Hans Larsen.

It appears to me that the diets being touted here are like the Atkins diet:


What the Experts Say About the Atkins Diet

Both in the U.S. and abroad, the Atkins diet remains highly controversial.

An Atkins spokesperson points out that a number of studies since 2002, including those funded by the American Heart Association, the National Institutes of Health, and the Philadelphia Veterans Administration, demonstrate some benefits of a low-carbohydrate diet -- especially when weight-loss results achieved with a diet like the Atkins plan are compared to weight-loss results on other diet plans.

But many health experts remain wary. "The Atkins diet is a viable option that requires more testing," Gary D. Foster, PhD, clinical director of the weight and eating disorders program at the University of Pennsylvania, tells WebMD. "The Atkins diet works at producing weight loss. If you are looking for weight loss, yes, it works. If you are looking for improvement in triglycerides and HDL cholesterol, yes, it works."

But Foster, like other experts, remains concerned about the long-term safety of the diet.

Robert H. Eckel, MD, director of the general clinical research center at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver, agrees. He tells WebMD, "Our worries over the Atkins diet go way past the question of whether it is effective for losing weight or even for keeping weight off. We worry that the diet promotes heart disease. ... We have concerns over whether this is a healthy diet for preventing heart disease, stroke, and cancer. There is also potential loss of bone, and the potential for people with liver and kidney problems to have trouble with the high amounts of protein in these diets."

The American Dietetic Association also has concerns about the Atkins diet. Gail Frank, PhD, former spokeswoman for the organization and professor of nutrition at California State University in Long Beach, says, "The body needs a minimum of carbohydrates for efficient and healthy functioning -- about 150 grams daily." Below that, normal metabolic activity is disrupted.

"The brain needs glucose to function efficiently, and it takes a long time to break down fat and protein to get to the brain," says Frank. Carbohydrates, especially in the form of vegetables, grains, and fruits, are more efficiently converted to glucose. And this more efficient use of glucose has developed over a long period of time, according to Frank. "Fruits and berries are much more indicative of early man's eating pattern than eating only protein, and we haven't changed all that much physiologically."

Volumetrics author Barbara Rolls, PhD, who holds the Guthrie Chair in Nutrition at Penn State University, offers this: "No one has shown, in any studies, that anything magical is going on with Atkins other than calorie restriction. The diet is very prescriptive, very restrictive, and limits half of the foods we normally eat," she says. "In the end it's not fat, it's not protein, it's not carbs, it's calories. You can lose weight on anything that helps you to eat less, but that doesn't mean it's good for you.

Some people on this board do not eat lots of fruits which contain potassium but instead take potassium supplements, that to me is silly. There is a bounty of good fruits and vegetables which not only taste great but are good for us. My opinion.

Liz

Hi Hans, I've never heard that the insulin response from fish and lean proteins is the same as rice and pasta. The glycemic load for the lean proteins and fish is zero and for the pasta and rice it's 20+/-. Does this mean that the glycemic load is not an indicator of any kind for insulin response?

Leo

Leo - of course not. The benefit of a low carb diet comes from the addition of abundant and healthy fat consumption.
Atkins diet was a high protein and high fat from all sources. They later tried to revise it to healthier...

The eating plans recommended by those working to control insulin responses and also prevent insulin resistance and diabetes emphasize the importance of a high, healthy-fat diet... as described by insulin expert, Ron Rosedale, MD, in his book The Rosedale Diet... He says he never wanted the book to have that title...as it infers some type of fad diet...rather than the important overall lifestyle that he has found to be highly effective. He says, the body's requirement for carbohydrates is zero... and that the main goal is to get the body to utilize healthy fat as fuel, along with some protein and healthy vegetables... (or words to that effect... I didn't take the time to do a direct quote from the text).

The best check is to do the labs suggested by Dr. Rosedale to determine how your body processes what you eat and then make adjustments based on the results. He's one of many doctors who have reversed not only insulin resistance but also diabetes and has been able to Insulin Dependent Diabetics off their insulin.

Jackie