Fluoride / fluoridation

-- Fluoride - The Aging Factor. How to Recognize and Avoid the Devastating Effects of Fluoride (1993)
Biochemist John Yiamouyianis, PhD [www.amazon.com]

-- Fluoride - The Aging Factor Excerpts, Chapters 4, 6, 8, 17.[www.whale.to]

-- The Fluoride Poisoning Conspiracy. [www.whale.to]
"Fluoridation is the greatest case of scientific fraud of this century, if not of all time."
Robert Carton, Ph.D. former U.S. EPA scientist.

-- Fluoridation: A Horror Story by researcher Wade Frazier [www.ahealedplanet.net]

Quote: "John Yiamouyiannis, in his influential 'Fluoride - The Aging Factor', described how the fluorine ion disrupts enzyme activity and attacks DNA and protein. In his theories, backed up by research, the fluorine ion particularly disrupts hydrogen bonds. When chemicals are dumped together, the elements that have a higher bonding affinity will "steal" the bonds from other elements. Because it holds its electrons more tightly than any other element, fluorine forms the smallest negatively charged ions of all the elements, and that small size allows them to go where larger ions cannot. Those fluorine ions can get into the nooks and crannies of larger molecules, such as enzymes and DNA, and wreak biological havoc. Those fluorine ions disrupt weaker bonds in those larger molecules, damaging or destroying the original substance, disabling its biochemical usefulness. The fluorine ion acts similarly to "free radicals" in the body, with its net electrical charge interfering with biochemical reactions. That is how the fluorine ion harms or kills people."

-- The Fluoride Deception (2006) [www.amazon.com]
Investigative journalist Christopher Bryson
-- Christopher Bryson interview video [www.youtube.com]

"Christopher Bryson is an excellent narrator, and he reports on recent research previously not known to me. Especially I am intrigued by the story about Phyllis Mullenix and her animal research on the influence of fluoride on behavior and brain development. . . . It is my sincere hope that his book will receive the attention it deserves and that its implications will be seriously considered."
Dr. Arvid Carlsson, 2000 Nobel Prize Laureate for Medicine.

"In much the same way biologist Rachel Carson warned us over forty years ago in Silent Spring about the havoc and harm being caused by the misuse of persistent pesticides, journalist Christopher Bryson here lays bare the secret story and hidden dangers of the introduction of fluoride chemicals from the cold war era into our drinking water. The irrefutable evidence of duplicity and cover-up presented in this book is hair-raising. The Fluoride Deception presents a scorching indictment of how researchers and health care officials working closely with government agencies, big industry, and their attorneys have allowed themselves to surrender their responsibility for the medical well-being of their fellow citizens."
Dr. Albert W. Burgstahler, former president of the International Society for Fluoride Research and Emeritus Professor of Organic Chemistry, University of Kansas.

"Bryson is right on in his emphasis on the ineffectiveness of fluoridation of water with industrial wastes, and its risks of nerve and brain damage, and cancer, coupled with the long-standing industrial conspiracy to suppress this information."
Dr. Samuel S. Epstein, chairman of the Cancer Prevention Coalition and Professor Emeritus of Environmental and Occupational Medicine, University of Illinois School of Public Health.

"The Fluoride Deception compellingly and inescapably exposes the murderous fraud that heads of state and industry have for decades perpetrated on an innocent public. Extremely well written and tightly researched, The Fluoride Deception is sure to become the 'must read' book in this important and burgeoning field."
Derrick Jensen, author of 'The Culture of Make Believe' and 'A Language Older Than Words'.

-- Iodine Protects Against Fluoride Toxicity [blog.imva.info]
Dr. Mark Sircus

==================================

Further information

-- Protein structure [en.wikipedia.org]
"To be able to perform their biological function, proteins fold into one or more specific spatial conformations, driven by a number of non-covalent interactions such as hydrogen bonding, ionic interactions, Van Der Waals forces, and hydrophobic packing."

-- Hydrogen bond [en.wikipedia.org]
"Hydrogen bonding also plays an important role in determining the three-dimensional structures adopted by proteins and nucleic bases. In these macromolecules, bonding between parts of the same macromolecule cause it to fold into a specific shape, which helps determine the molecule's physiological or biochemical role. The double helical structure of DNA, for example, is due largely to hydrogen bonding between the base pairs, which link one complementary strand to the other and enable replication."

-- Peptide hormones [proteins] [themedicalbiochemistrypage.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2012 10:49PM by Erling.

Here's a few pertinent statements from various agencies:

The fluoridation of public water has been hailed by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control as one of the top medical achievements of the 20th century.[46] It is ranked No. 9 on this list ahead of "Recognition of tobacco use as a health hazard."[47]

The American Dental Association calls water fluoridation "unquestionably one of the safest and most beneficial, cost-effective public health measures for preventing, controlling, and in some cases reversing, tooth decay."[48][not in citation given]

Health Canada supports fluoridation, citing a number of international scientific reviews that indicate "there is no link between any adverse health effects and exposure to fluoride in drinking water at levels that are below the maximum acceptable concentration of 1.5 mg/L."[49]

The World Health Organization says fluoridation is an effective way to prevent tooth decay in poor communities. "In some developed countries, the health and economic benefits of fluoridation may be small, but particularly important in deprived areas, where water fluoridation may be a key factor in reducing inequalities in dental health."[50]

A 2008 meta-analysis of published research into fluoride's effect on osteoporosis found that daily doses of up to 20 mg fluoride significantly increased bone mineral density and reduced fracture risk.[51]

"In much the same way biologist Rachel Carson warned us over forty years ago in Silent Spring about the havoc and harm being caused by the misuse of persistent pesticides,

Because of Rachel Carsons book, thousands of children and adults have died----DDT was outlawed because of the scarce tactics of the book "Slient spring", DDT was sprayed to kill the mosquitos in third world countries which saved lives, now that DDT is outlawed people are again dying of Malaria. Sometimes the so called cure is worse than the disease, but I guess these do-gooders would rather people die than admit sometimes we need a pesticide.

Liz

Dental fluorosis rates in the U.S.
Fluoride Removal Victory in New York
[www.activistpost.com]

Just wondering, Liz --- by "do-gooders" do you also mean the person you quoted? Dr. Albert W. Burgstahler, former president of the International Society for Fluoride Research and Emeritus Professor of Organic Chemistry, University of Kansas.

Todd,

Here is another one: [www.cbc.ca] and this Canadian city has a population of over a million people.

Hans

Thanks for the article, Todd --- People are definitely waking up to the facts, largely due to amazing work by people like Chemistry Professor Paul Connett, PhD and his team at Fluoride Action Network [www.fluoridealert.org]

See OUR TEAM [www.fluoridealert.org]

Dr. Paul Connett bio: [www.safecleanup.com]

Dr. Paul Connett's website [drpaulconnett.webs.com]

"Dr. Paul Connett is the Director of the Fluoride Action Network (FAN), and the Executive Director of its parent body, the American Environmental Health Studies Project (AEHSP). He has spoken and given more than 2,000 presentations in forty-nine states and fifty-two countries on the issue of waste management. He holds a bachelors degree from the University of Cambridge and a Ph.D. in chemistry from Dartmouth College and is a retired professor of environmental chemistry and toxicology at St. Lawrence University. He lives in Canton, New York"

Toxic Tap Water --- Professor Paul Connett video (1 hour) [www.youtube.com]

Erling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2012 01:33PM by Erling.

Erling:

I don't know this person whom you claim I quoted, I quoted no one, I am not advocating flouride, as I understand it, flluoride is a by-product of Al. You brought up R. Carson, I remember the book, I also know that DDT which R. C. helped to eradicate, and because of it, many are dying today of malaria. If you can't understand that in some instances some pesticides have saved lives, as in the case of DDT, then you and I will disagree. As for the do-gooders, the EPA comes to mind.

L

I noticed that Todd's post had a sidebar "What if canabis could cure cancer?" Now that is worth studying.

Twenty-some years ago there was a US TV program called "The X-Files"; the two main characters were convinced that a goverrnment conspiracy and cover-up had hidden information related to aliens landing on earth in the 50's. It also dealt with more serious things like the Yeti. I think the search for the truth on fluorine is kind of like the X-Files-

I can certainly understand the viewpoint that "it's my water and I want it natural;" I don't feel strongly enough about it to move out of the City into the woods (and of course Jackie believes that it occurs naturally, you cannot get away from it!)

But if anyone feels that strongly they should move, or dig a well. I grew up with lots of kids who lived on rural wells and they typically lost several teeth; but at least no one was forcing them to take something.

Frankly, anyone who loses more than a minute of sleep over fluorine needs to chill-

FiveBox

Look into Hemp Oil as a cancer and other cures. Youtube has plenty of video's about it.
[www.youtube.com]
Rick Simpson is the one who is into it.
Maybe with the legalization of it in some states, Hemp Oil will be available legally soon.
There's video's on how to make it yourself on Youtube :-)

I am not going down that road except to say that perhaps the cannabis might allieviate the fluorine paranoia (or it might make it worse OMG!)

So the way I see this fluoride debate is that on one side (pro fluoride) you have the industry lobbyists, bureaucrats and various government officials. On the other side you have scientists. Yet Govt. wins.



Adrian

Both sides have their scientists, thats why there is arguments about who is right.

L

Hi Liz -

Adrian is absolutely correct. If what you say was true it would mean there aren't any facts, only conflicting opinions thought to be facts. Please read everything with understanding -- it's the only way to get at the truth..

I hope by now you've watched the 1/2 hour interview with Christopher Bryson, author of The Fluoride deception. It was presented in the first post: [www.youtube.com]

Erling

Erling:


"A scientific theory is empirical, and is always open to falsification if new evidence is presented. That is, no theory is ever considered strictly certain as science accepts the concept of fallibilism. The philosopher of science Karl Popper sharply distinguishes truth from certainty. He writes that scientific knowledge "consists in the search for truth", but it "is not the search for certainty ... All human knowledge is fallible and therefore uncertain."[42]



I am not an advocate of fluoride --- I guess everybody has their concept of truth.

Liz

Liz is absolutely correct and there is plenty of scientific data supporting the great benefit of fluoridation.

Of course, based on Jackie's theory, fluorine occurs naturally so you will not be able to avoid it.

Millions ingest it every day-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2012 06:21PM by Hans Larsen.

Hi Liz - your good quote is a factual statement for theories, but don't confuse "theory" with "fact". Or do you believe there is no such.thing as "fact"?

Theory: "A coherent statement or set of ideas that explains observed facts or phenomena. . ."
Fact: "Something concrete used as a basis for further interpretation."

It's a concrete fact that the human body comprises 100,000-plus different proteins, each with specific structure and function. Proteins are "the stuff of life".

It's also a concrete fact that fluoride ions undo the "hydrogen bonds" that hold a protein's complex structure together, thereby destroying the protein's function. Consider the various proteins that pump.and control the flow of electrolytes in and out of cells, generating and controlling the heartbeats. A good example is the sodium / potassium pumps. Destroying their function destroys the cells' ability to create and sustain NSR.

Erling

==================================

-- Na/K pump, Ca pump, Proton pump structure models [www.pdb.org]

-- Na/K pump functional description and animation [www.vivo.colostate.edu]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2012 03:47PM by Erling.

Interesting "fact" Erling. But so what?

Millions drink fluorinated water every day and stay in NSR- so your "fact" is meaningless.

Fluorine paranoia is a great time waster. People talk about it but it doesn't really mean anything other than prevention of tooth decay.

"But so what?" What ???

Check with Dr. Connett



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2012 06:27PM by Hans Larsen.

No reason to check with anybody- millions drink it every day and millions stay in NSR. That's the fact, jack.

EB,

It would be desirable if you, and others, discussing this subject could make sure you make a clear distinction between fluorine and fluoride. Fluorine is a higly reactive gas which is definitely not found in its free form in nature. As a matter of fact it takes some highly complicated processes to produce it. Fluoride is a compound of the fluorine ion and another inorganic or organic molecule, for example sodium fluoride (NaF) as used to fluoridate water. Please note that NaF dissolved in water is no more likely to generate fluorine gas than NaCl (table salt) dissolved in water is likely to generate chlorine gas.

Hans

Hans,

I do not claim to be a chemist, however is there any confusion about the subject of this thread? This thread deals with fluoridation of water; if there is anyone who doesn't understand that, then they probably got lost in one of Erling's links.

In the very first post, Erling uses the term fluorine as well as fluoride. IMHO the average layperson or reader of this website cannot tell you the difference. Was his usage correct?

When Jackie talks about the suspected naturally occurring element in her well water, what is the correct term?

I believe the most important fact in this entire debate is that every day, millions of people drink fluoridated water and they DON'T go into afib. I can see nothing in Erling's posts that disagree with that.

My apologies for any technical mis-statements on my part.

EB

Taking the fluonine / fluoride tutorial a bit further --

-- Fluorine (F) is the element, Atomic No. 9 in the Periodic Table of Elements [www.webelements.com]
Clicking chemical symbol F brings up Fluorine: the essentials [www.webelements.com]
"Fluorine is a Group 17 element. Fluorine is the most electronegative and reactive of all elements. It is a pale yellow, corrosive gas, which reacts with practically all organic and inorganic substances. Finely divided metals, glass, ceramics, carbon, and even water burn in fluorine with a bright flame. It is not uncommon to see fluorine spelled incorrectly as flourine." (continue)

-- Fluoride (F-) is the fluorine ion. The terms "fluoride ion" and "fluorine ion" are sometimes used interchangeably.
Fluoride [en.wikipedia.org]
Fluoride is the anion F−, the reduced form of fluorine when as an ion and when bonded to another element. Inorganic fluorine containing compounds are called fluorides. Fluoride, like other halides, is a monovalent ion (−1 charge). Its compounds often have properties that are distinct relative to other halides. Structurally, and to some extent chemically, the fluoride ion resembles the hydroxide ion. (continue)

-- Fluorine [en.wikipedia.org]
Fluorine (symbol F) is the chemical element with atomic number 9. It is the lightest halogen. At standard pressure and temperature, fluorine is a pale yellow gas composed of diatomic molecules, F2. Fluorine is the most electronegative element and is extremely reactive, requiring great care in handling. It has a single stable isotope, fluorine-19.
In stars fluorine is rare compared to other light elements. In Earth's crust fluorine is the thirteenth most abundant element. (continue)

-- From Healing is Voltage by biophysicist Jerry Tennant, MD:
The problem is that fluoride is a "bully". Any time an atom of fluoride and an atom of any other halogen are in the same vicinity, the fluoride will displace the other halogen and take its place. The thyroid hormone T4 is a protein comprised of tyrosine attached to four iodides. However, when you consume fluoride, it displaces the iodides and you get fake thyroid hormone.
One problem is that our blood tests can't tell the difference between the real and the fake hormone. Another problem is that the fake one doesn't work. Thus your blood tests are normal but your body is really deficient of functional thyroid hormone. This is called Type II hypothyroidism.
Because most Americans consume fluoride in water, toothpaste, visits to the dentist, etc., most Americans have Type II hypothyroidism!!! (continue from p. 190)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2012 09:40PM by Erling.

Erling,

You don't need to be a chemist to understand that millions of people drink fluoridated water every day, and they all stay in NSR.

Does that bother you somehow? It is really a good thing, and their teeth are stronger too.

EB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2012 12:10AM by FiveBox.

This thread is pretty worn out, so to make the reading more interesting, here's a few chemists' jokes: those chemists are a wacky group...

Q: Did you hear oxygen went on a date with potassium?
A: It went OK.
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We would like to apologize for not adding more jokes... but we only update them.... periodically!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Anyone know any jokes about sodium?
A: Na
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Making bad chemistry jokes because all the good ones Argon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What is the most important rule in chemistry?
A: Never lick the spoon!
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Helium walks into a bar,
The bar tender says "We don't serve noble gasses in here."
Helium doesn't react.
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Silver walks up to Gold in a bar and says, "AU, get outta here!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two chemists go into a restaurant.
The first one says "I think I'll have an H2O."
The second one says "I think I'll have an H2O too" -- and he died.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What did the scientist say when he found 2 isotopes of helium?
A: HeHe
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: Why was the mole of oxygen molecules excited when he walked out of the singles bar?
A: He got Avogadro's number!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A proton and a neutron are walking down the street.
The proton says, "Wait, I dropped an electron help me look for it."
The neutron says "Are you sure?" The proton replies "I'm positive."
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Money has recently been discovered to be a not-yet-identified super heavy element.
The proposed name is: Un-obtainium.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an ion chromatography chemist I made this one up:
Anions aren't negative, they're just misunderstood.
(kind of like Erling)
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The optimist sees the glass half full.
The pessimist sees the glass half empty.
The chemist see the glass completely full, half in the liquid state and half in the vapor state.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What do chemists call a benzene ring with iron atoms replacing the carbon atoms?
A: A ferrous wheel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: If H2O is the formula for water, what is the formula for ice?
A: H2O cubed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What did the bartender say when oxygen, hydrogen, sulfur, sodium, and phosphorous walked into his bar?
A: OH SNaP!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A neutron walks into a bar. He asks the bartender, "How much for a beer?" The bartender offers him a warm smile and says, "For you, no charge".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: What do you do with a dead chemist?
A: Barium
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Q: What did one ion say to the other?
A: I've got my ion you.

Erling, if you need me to explain any of these, you let me know.

EB

EB, Have you actually read the information that Erling has posted links to or do you just know that its wrong?

Edit: Never mind I just read some more of your replies

Adrian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2012 11:41PM by Adrian.

Hi Adrian,

There are lots of viewpoints on this issue. I have read plenty of the posts of people who are against fluoridation. Some people very well may have legitimate concerns, others may have an axe to grind for some other reason. Hans is against fluoridation, although in an earlier post he said he saw no connection between fluoridation and afib (he opposes it for other reasons).

I have a couple of reasons I support it. For one thing, when you have organizations like the World Health Organization, Health Canada, the American Dental Association, etc. overwhelmingly state the benefit of it, I tend to believe that those people have the public interest at heart.

But the heart of my argument with Erling is that this website is supposed to be about atrial fibrilation. As I have stated more than once, millions of people drink fluoridated water every day, and they stay in NSR. Erling hasn't posted anything that refutes that-

So feel free to agree or disagree-

EB

The West Virginia University Rural Health Research Center says that fluoride doesn’t even prevent cavities; Water fluoridation and Dental health indicators in Rural and Urban Areas of the US

the toxic effects of fluoride are well documented, just google it. It's all there if you are willing to look.

Personally I believe those organizations that you mentioned will sooner of later be forced to change their stance due to overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Science will win in the end.

Seeking the Truth

Adrian

We shall see long term, however there are more than a few scientists and doctors at the World Health Organization and the American Dental Association who don't agree-

And to my main point, if you are an afibber, you need not worry about fluoride as an afib trigger.

FiveBox,
Millions of people are deficient in Magnesium and/or Potassium and don't get Afib.
Millions of people exercise too much and don't get Afib.
Millions of people suffer from stress and don't get Afib.
Etc, etc.
This doesn't change the fact, as seen time and again on this forum, that large numbers do get Afib for these very reasons. Your statement that millions drink flouridated water and don't get Afib is meaningless.