low carbohydrate diets

Hi i was wondering if anyone has experience to share re no/low carb diets and afib. I decided to cut out carbs from my diet about 4 weeks ago. Im a diabetes specialist nurse and was interested in it for that and also to lose weight. i have lost 8 kg in that time, hardly ever crave any foods and dont miss carbs at all and feel loads more energy. however iv also noticed that my heart has calmed a lot, oddly im wearing a 7 day event monitor after seeing my EP after having reccurring AF over a few weeks about 2 months ago. and lo and behold all this week ive hardly skipped a beat. im wondering if its the absence of carbs? or the weight loss/ or the better sleep and lower blood pressure thats led to this. ime running 35 mins 3 times per week and walk to work most days about 45 m9ins and feeling a lot better. i ususlly get episodes of atrial bigeminy quiter often and im not getting that anywhere near as often. Any wisdom , advice to share/ anyone?
regards and well wishes. Gary x

Hi Gary - There is abundant evidence from personal testimonials here that cutting carbs and/or eating Paleo helps reverse Afib. The Conference Room session #54 was on Examining the Successs of the Paleo Diet in Afibbers
[www.afibbers.org]

As you know, in the metabolizing of carbs and the resultant insulin production, both magnesium and potassium are required... so it makes sense that lessening the requirement for insulin production and sparing those critical electrolytes helps the heart function better.

The very excellent report Insulin and Its Metabolic Effects by Ron Rosedale, MD, has been reviewed here often. Be sure to read as Dr. Rosedale has been a pioneer in reversing diabetes and getting people off insulin.
[drrosedale.com]

GeorgeN has written frequently on the advantages of the Ketogenic diet...Conference Room 73
[www.afibbers.org]

Definitely healthy practice to keep insulin response as low as possible.

Jackie

I have been experimenting with the low-carb/high-protein diet for several months and can tell you that my blood glucose readings when I am observing the program is normal and steady; and I cut my Metformin down to virtually zip... perhaps one pill a day vs. the 2 plus 2 I was taking. I have loads more energy and I lose weight. It is not really a carb-free diet as you will be taking in carbs in the meats and vegetables that you eat.... it's just a minimal amount. I eat a fist sized serving of protein (whatever kind) and tons of veggies including anything green that is not a 'storage vegetable' like brussel sprouts, corn, etc., along with a large portion of green salad and toss in tomato as a treat. Cuts down on the shopping list too. I do continue to consume mass quantities of low sodium V8 or Potassium Gluconate dissolved in Polar Seltzer Water to maintain my serum Potassium and keep my heart calm. It has the bonus side effect of eliminating any foot or leg cramps that I might have had.

I believe it to be a healthy diet, having eliminated all salt and processed foods completely. Everything is fresh and natural where possible.

Pay a visit to a certified (certifiable) dietician and they will roll their eyes for you... and tell you that you must have whole grains and fibre and carbohydrates and salt and so on, in proportion. Remember that this is the nonsense that they have spent three or four years being fed in order to get their piece of paper at the end of the ordeal. I do not hold dieticians in very high regard as you may be able to tell. They simply regurgitate the nonsense they have been fed and get paid for making folks sick. Or sicker.

Think you are on the right track with the low-carb, paleo, south beach, or whatever name you wish to give to it.... diet (program). You will feel better, be healthier and live longer. Of this I have no doubt whatsoever.

Murray L

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tikosyn uptake Dec 2011 500ug b.i.d. NSR since!
Herein lies opinion, not professional advice, which all are well advised to seek.

What is a good food for a snack when on a low carb diet? My doc told me to just eat more of the same protein (chicken, turkey, beef, etc) that I am eating that day, but I feel that I am eating too much animal protein when I do this and my pH is definitely too acidic. I have been snacking on nuts, because they are a good balance of carb, fat, and protein, but I recently read that they are high in omega 6 oils (and most of us need more omega 3 instead) plus they contain high amounts of phytic (sp?) acid which interfers with digestion of amino acids.

My afib has been quiet for the last 3 months, but I can't say it is due to a low carb diet as I've only been on that the past month. For me, it was going no/low sodium and no/few processed foods.

Windstar (Nancy M.)

This masterpiece of relevant information (offered above by Jackie in Dr. Mercola's format) should be studied carefully in its entirety:

INSULIN AND ITS METABOLIC EFFECTS [www.afibbers.org]
A presentation by Ron Rosedale, MD.
Designs for Health Institute's BoulderFest Seminar, August 1999

A few relevant quotes:

-- [scroll down ~1/4] A lesser known fact is that insulin also stores magnesium. We mentioned it's role in vitamin C; it stores all sorts of nutrients. But what happens if your cells become resistant to insulin? First of all, you can't store magnesium so you lose it, that's one effect -- you lose it out the urine. What is one of magnesium's major roles? To relax muscles. Intracellular magnesium relaxes muscles. What happens when you can't store magnesium because the cell is resistant? You lose magnesium and your blood vessels constrict -- what does that do? Increases blood pressure, and reduces energy, since intracellular magnesium is required for all energy producing reactions that take place in the cell. But most importantly, magnesium is also necessary for the action of insulin. It is also necessary for the manufacture of insulin. So then you raise your insulin, you lose magnesium, and the cells become even more insulin resistant. Blood vessels constrict, glucose and insulin can't get to the tissues, which makes them more insulin resistant, so the insulin levels go up and you lose more magnesium. This is the vicious cycle that goes on from before you were born.

-- [scroll down ~1/2] What is the minimum daily requirement for carbohydrates? ZERO. What is the food pyramid based on? A totally irrelevant nutrient.

-- There is no essential need for carbohydrates. So why are we all eating carbohydrates? To keep the rate of aging up, we don't want to pay social security to everyone. (audience laughter.)

-- I didn't say you can't have any carbs, I said fiber is good. Vegetables are great, I want you to eat vegetables. The practical aspect of it is that you are going to get carbs, but there is no essential need.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/29/2012 09:20PM by Erling.

Jackie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Gary - There is abundant evidence from
> personal testimonials here that cutting carbs
> and/or eating Paleo helps reverse Afib.


Unfortunately, that wasn't my case. I am now in persistent afib (still on low carb, low glycemic diet) after being low-rate paroxymal when I first joined this forum- and following the protocols touted here. I do agree with all the other benefits jackie discusses and plan to continue this kind of diet for general health reasons, but I wonder if it really makes any difference in terms of afib progression for most of us. My EP says the probability of successful ablation is somewhat reduced by that year of delay - so weigh the consequences of delay carefully.

I needed to try diet and supplements first, otherwise I could not justify the danger of the procedure, so I have no regret in that regard.

Tom B - what we know about magnesium deficiency and the formation of fibrosis is an important consideration when evaluating the overall picture and how some individuals can reverse their afib and some cannot. The right eating plan for each individual can be highly influential on factors that help reduce the promotion of inflammation and a tendency toward systemic fibrosis in general-- not always specific to cardiac tissue. Fire in the heart is just one concern. I'm not sure of the exact number of participants on The List... but it must be in the hundreds of people who have taken the time to report their success story.

In the early stages of AF, a very strict concerted effort to reverse whatever is missing or causing interferrence can be very effective and what constitute strict for some may not be strict enough for others and requires a lot of 'tinkering' to find the right combination for one's own unique biochemical/biomolecular/biophysical requirements.

As related by Shannon on numerous occasions, even with all his heroics of using IM injections and infusions of magnesium regularly, and also testing frequently by Exatest, it was a significant challenge for him to keep the IC magnesium where it needs to be. It's undoubtedly a Catch 22... MgD perpetuates tendency toward arrhythmia and prolonged arrhythmia progresses to formation of myocardial fibrosis. Once even microscopic accumulations of fibrosis are present, the persistence of afib is not only understandable, it's logical when considering the MgD/fibrosis connection.

In my case of 8 years of 'tinkering,' I didn't get the right combination until I was signed up for ablation and then my desperation to avoid the ablation really paid off in big dividends.... since I was very close to being a permanent afibber.
with my events lasting 24 to 27 hours daily and then NSR for 4 hours and then back in AF for another 27... month after month. I'm just mentioning this once again to emphasize that even though I thought I was doing all I could, I learned there were other influences and higher levels of supportive nutrients that took me from nearly permanent afib down to zero events ... and then the next challenge was to wean off flecainide. My ablation date was too close to permit the full experiment, but I have always felt if I had delayed, I could have avoided it completely. Especially since I had breakthrough AF starting in year four that I was able to reverse without a second procedure.

The good part of the whole experience as a result of the special focus on nutritional support, I ended up with excellent labs for all the other adverse health risk markers so the outlook for my overall health was excellent.

Going gluten free and dairy free (as in Paleo eating) is frequently a huge positive influence because it eliminates the 'body on fire' factor and when the fire is in the heart, AF is just one of the potential complications.

Jackie

Bottom line Jackie...to try to establish what exactly each of us lacks or needs is difficult, if not impossible, during the "ramping up" period of afib. It only took a year and a half for me to go from afib lasting minutes to afib lasting hours, then days. I also stayed away from gluten and dairy...and other foods as they began to affect heart rhythm.

I noted that as each month passed yet another food source was removed from my diet, giving me the impression that someday I would be required to survive on water alone... and even then I would no doubt afib due to the minerals therein - LOL. No thanks.

Jackie,

Some food for thought regarding your response to TomB:

When somebody writes in and says basically that they tried the diet and nutrition program, it didn't work, afib is worse, time for a procedure, etc. you might think about showing some empathy and wishing them luck rather than lecturing them on your 8 year plan. It is truly remarkable that you don't credit Dr. Natale, one of the pioneers of ablation science, with contributing towards your cure. Instead you lament not hanging in there with the supplements long enough.

It could be that the only reason you were able to reverse the breakthrough at year 4 is due to Dr. Natale's good work, have you considered that?

How about "TomB, you gave it a good shot, we are pulling for you in the next phase". Nothing wrong with that.

EB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2012 10:45PM by FiveBox.

Hey everybody , this is the real Tom C., I think you meant Tom B. Gary, let me throw my opinion in, please refer to my last post: Wheat, Potassium and Afib a couple of weeks ago, I found that quitting all wheat products(only wheat!) did more for raising my Potassium than decreasing Sodium, a lot more. You need a Cardymeter to home test your levels, and listen to the Youtube lectures of Dr. William Davis about his book "Wheat Belly".

To all who need to understand exactly what a low carb diet really is... tally the carbs/serving and then the daily total.
How close do you come to Zero requirement for daily carbs?

For afibbers especially, sugar in any form should be avoided.

In some individuals who consume a high carb intake and unless they are screened to rule out glucose handling dysfunctions and the tendency toward insulin resistance, consequences of elevated glucose and insulin response impairment can lead to conditions that not only include the pre-diabetic tendency of Insulin Resistance (or metabolic syndrome), but the production of inflammatory cytokines and generation of elevated enzymes…including PAI-1 which is directly involved in adverse blood clotting tendencies.

Anyone choosing a high-carb diet needs to be monitored regularly to be sure the glucose handling mechanism is optimally functional. This includes Hemoglobin A1C along with a fasting glucose and insulin screen. If out of range on those labs, then the longer fasting tests that measure before and post-prandial blood draws hourly after a meal are reliable evaluations. You can’t possibly guess how a person responds to a carb-laden diet without the hourly post-prandials for both glucose and insulin.

Insulin Resistance and Metabolic Syndrome
Modern lifestyle and diet choices can cause weight gain and obesity, ultimately leading to Metabolic Syndrome. Overweight and obesity causes adipocytes (fat cells) to become abnormally large.

Oversize fat cells generate excessive levels of enzymes, including PAI-1 and several cytokines which adversely affect the body. PAI-1 is thought to contribute to insulin resistance, causing serious health consequences, including the progression of atherosclerosis, diabetes and hypertension.

Elevated systemic inflammation increases blood glucose and reduces the efficacy of the immune system. Two very important considerations for life-long health and longevity.

Since I totally believe in the strong influence of dietary choices and environmental influences on health and especially nutritional support for specific ailments or conditions, it isn't good enough to say....'you gave it a good try'... because dietary choices are for life. If one expects to avoid a downhill health spiral, then a complete metabolic profile evaluation of how one processes their food choices is in order. Surgical procedures for dietary incompatibilities don't correct the fundamentals. Nor does it address the influences of environmental toxins that plague everyone, every day.

And EB... you haven't been reading here long enough to know the depth of my honor and respect for Dr. Natale's knowledge and his extraordinary skill. He's one of the few I'd ever trust with my heart or my body after all the medical disasters I've endured. You like to put words in my mouth and I really don't appreciate your thinking that is acceptable behavior.

Jackie

Jackie,

Perhaps you need to be clearer about what you post.

"My ablation date was too close to permit the full experiment, but I have always felt if I had delayed, I could have avoided it completely. Especially since I had breakthrough AF starting in year four that I was able to reverse without a second procedure." (your quote)

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of your Doctor's skill, rather you take the credit for avoiding afib. Your response to my post gives Dr. Natale some credit, though.

Despite all that, you missed my point: Tom is in persistent afib, he is getting ready for a procedure. And your comment is, "it's not enough to say you gave it a good try..."? Not very comforting.

Tom needs our support-

EB

Hey Tom C... thanks for reminding us about your success and Wheat Belly...

The important thing for afibbers to learn is that a low carb diet is definitely useful and by avoiding wheat as you learned can make a huge difference in electrolyte sparing.

Here's more about Wheat Belly...and related.

Jackie

This review on Amazon.com briefly details the benefits of the Wheat Belly Diet… and is yet another example of low carb eating that promotes a healthy glucose-handling function because it spares the continual requirement to use magnesium and potassium in the metabolizing of carbs/wheat (and other grains) which is especially beneficial for afibbers.

...." In Wheat Belly, cardiologist Dr. William Davis explains it’s not excess fat intake or too little exercise that is making us fat. He says the culprit is today’s genetically engineered wheat — and the agribusiness that pushes it on us in every aisle of the grocery store — and your only defense is a gluten-free diet.

In fact, Davis reached the disturbing conclusion that wheat is the single largest contributor to the nationwide obesity epidemic.

The Wheat Belly Diet: How Does It Work?
The Wheat Belly Diet suggests we get back to eating more like our ancestors who existed solely on foods found in nature, not those grown for production or manufactured for sale. In that way, the diet is similar to another popular diet, the Paleo or hunter-gatherer diet, says Joan Salge Blake, MS, RD, a Boston nutritionist, author of Nutrition & You: Core Concepts for Good Health, and a spokeswoman for the American Dietetic Association. Here’s how to find out if going wheat-free is right for you.

The Wheat Belly Diet: What Is It?
Your menu choices on this eating plan include natural foods such as eggs, nuts, vegetables, fish, poultry, and other meats. You can use herbs and spices freely and healthy oils, such as olive and walnut, liberally. Eat fruit occasionally — just one or two pieces a week — because the naturally occurring fructose in fruit is a simple carbohydrate. As part of this diet, you’re required to eliminate all fast food, processed snacks, and junk foods, and drink lots of water.

The Wheat Belly Diet is in fact gluten-free, but Davis doesn’t advocate eating packaged gluten-free foods. His reasoning: These products often simply substitute brown rice, potato starch, rice starch, tapioca starch, or cornstarch for wheat flour, and those substitutes can raise your blood sugar or glucose higher than wheat.

Cut wheat from your diet, and you’ll eat about 400 fewer calories a day than you normally would, Davis says. This calorie deficit alone is almost enough to add up to a pound of weight loss per week. “Anything that is going to cut calories is going to work because losing weight is a numbers game,” Blake says. “Eat fewer calories than you burn, and you’ll lose weight. Likewise, eat more than you burn, and you’ll gain weight.” Another reason the diet works, Davis says, is that wheat contains a unique protein, gliadin, which stimulates your appetite — so when you eat wheat, your body just wants more wheat. Eliminate wheat and your appetite diminishes on its own. Wheat also causes blood sugar spikes, and elevated blood-sugar levels can cause your body to store calories as fat. Lower your blood sugar by eliminating wheat, and it can contribute to weight loss.

In a blog link, author William Davis, MD, says:

Shut Yer Pie Hole
Posted on August 28, 2012 by Dr. Davis
I regard most of the people who have read the Wheat Belly book and/or follow the discussions in this Wheat Belly Blog and Wheat Belly Facebook page as the early adopters in this new lifestyle. Although we now number in the hundreds of thousands, even millions, you are the nutritional equivalents of the kids who sleep on the sidewalk in front of the electronics store the night before the new iPad goes up for sale.

Imagine what would happen if we took this discussion beyond us early adopters and took it to a mainstream audience of, say, 1000 people. We educate them on the principles of why wheat destroys health, how it exerts mind effects, and why it is a powerful cause of obesity. We educate them on how to create a healthy, varied, and delicious wheat-free life. What would happen? Given the experiences of our early adopters, I believe it is safe to predict that:
-There would be an astounding quantity of weight loss.
-Among our 1000 participants, they could easily exceed 15 tons of weight loss within several months.
-There would be a dramatic reduction in total food intake.
-If we apply the average of 440 fewer calories consumed for every man, woman, and child participating, it would mean that these 1000 people consume 440,000 calories less per day, or 160,600,000 calories per year. That’s enough calories saved to feed nearly 10,000 people for a week.
-Gastrointestinal complaints would dissolve in the majority.

-And, with the disappearance of symptoms of acid reflux, bowel urgency, constipation, and bloating, we’d see widespread elimination of the need for acid suppressing drugs, antacids, laxatives, fiber preparations, and anti-spasm medication, since bowel function simply returns to normal minus the disruptive effects of wheat germ agglutinin. There would be fewer endoscopies and hospitalizations for acute abdominal symptoms.

-Joint pain and stiffness would be eliminated in many. The most advanced bone-on-bone forms of arthritis will not, of course, regenerate. But common complaints of hand/wrist/finger pain, elbow and shoulder pain, low back pain, and knee and hip pain and stiffness would improve or disappear in the majority. Along with it goes the anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen, naproxen, and Celebrex, the drugs that for many were an evil necessity, commonly resulting in bleeding stomach ulcers and kidney damage with prolonged use.

-Alertness, energy, concentration, clarity would increase in the majority.

-People regain the capacity for sustained concentration, acquisition of new information, and creative thinking. They become more effective at work. Children would be better able to learn, become less fidgety, feel more rewarded with their capacity to do well.
-Diabetics become non-diabetic.
-The 100 or so adults and children with type 2 diabetes become non-diabetic within several months, resulting in reduced need for metformin, Januvia, Byetta and Victoza, and insulin. Likewise, the 200 or so pre-diabetics become non-prediabetic. Type 1 diabetes is reduced in incidence in children.

-Those are just the most common effects. Beyond that, people with eating disorders experience freedom from food obsessions; people with schizophrenia and bipolar illness have less severe symptoms; children with ADHD and autism enjoy better behavior and increased attention span.

In short, eliminating this destructive creation of genetics research would result in societal transformation, a tidal wave of positive change in health, appearance, and costs. The magnitude of this trend is staggering. The obvious losers in this equation: Big Food producers of processed food, Big Pharma, the medical system, and nutritionists/dietitians/physicians who now look stupid for hawking a diet that caused the problems in the first place.

I play this little game to illustrate just how big this effect might be when viewed at the population level, not just from that of an individual. Make no mistake: This is BIG.

Is there any other food that, if avoided entirely, could even come close to resulting in such changes? "


Also, and while this is not new, Mark Hyman, MD, offers insight to wheat that he describes as the culprit or dwarf wheat as FrankenWheat as a huge contributor to health problems that are not just celiac related when it comes to wheat and gluten-containing grains. His correlation to the inflammation issue is a must-read.
Read on…[www.faim.org]

If you’re not convinced yet, The History of How Wheat Became Toxic is an interesting read as well
[maninisglutenfreeblog.com]

Low-carb diets that eliminate grains are healthy for everyone, especially afibbers.

Jackie

Jackie,

Great quote: "Shut Yer Pie Hole" Pretty funny.

I don't think this is pertinent to Tom's afib. He is persistent.

It is unlikely that low-carbing will cure persistent afib. If you have any reliable data to the contrary, I am sure you will post a link.

EB

Hey guys, don't put me in the middle of this!! I think a lot of what Jackie says has merit, and a lot of what EB says has merit too. Different perspectives make for good discourse. I'm going to stick with a low carb diet not because of afib, but because I think it is good for me otherwise, and my general physical condition's noticeable improvement over the last year supports the use of that kind of diet.

I may be in persistent afib, but it is not the horrible monster I thought it would be (it has morphed into a puny beast that I hardly notice most of the time)...the biggest disappointment is having to be on blood thinner, which puts my favorite recreation (dirt bike riding) off limits. I seem to tolerate the warfarin well, and I take just enough diltiazem to keep the resting average HR short-term spikes under 100 bpm (please don't tell my doc on me). If my ablation goes OK, I should be pretty much back to normal in another 5-6 months and tearing up the trails again - if not, and I'm still around I'll find something else to bug my wife with.....LOL...

Tom

Hey Tom,

No problem, I am actually a low carb fan myself. Prior to my Five Box procedure, low carbing reduced my afib burden (it didn't eliminate it though).

Good luck on the ablation and let us know how it goes.

EB

Jackie,

Its is interesting that the US has the highest rate of obesity in the world (30.6%) and yet consumes only 135 lbs/capita of wheat. In contrast, France has an obesity rate of 9.4% and consumes about twice as much wheat per capita as does the US. Italy has an obesity rate of 8.5% and consumes 52 lbs/capita in the form of pasta alone. Furthermore, while the incidence of heart disease is 107/100,000 people in the US it is 40/100,000 in France. Is the wheat different? Probably, especially considering that genetically modified foodstuffs are banned within the European Union.

Hans



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2012 05:03PM by Hans Larsen.

Hans,

According to Wikipedia:

"Currently, genetically modified wheat is not grown commercially in the United States because of a lack of consumer acceptance." (Quoting a US Dept of Agriculture source in August 2012).


EB

The huge difference between most European countries compared to Canada and the U.S. Is the number of fast food restaurants. The U.S. and Canada are addicted to fast food. When I was in Bordeaux seven years ago, I saw one Mcdonald's and no other fast food outlet. The same can be said for a number of other countries in Europe that I have visited. Europe has so much more history than North America, and they have also continued to eat more traditional foods established by their forefathers.

Lou

Lou,

Another possibility is the huge difference in the consumption of soft drinks most of which are now sweetened with high-fructose corn syrup. Annual per capita consumption of soft drinks in the US is 216 liters. This compares to 37 liters in France. In contrast, annual per capita wine consumption in the US is 7 liters as compared to France at 47 liters.

Hans

EB - I feel the need to respond to your messages to Jackie. I have been a fairly frequent visitor to this Board for over 7-8 years, and have gained a great deal of knowledge, advice and support from this Board. I believe you are fairly new here, and so it is unclear as to why you think you are in a position to "chastise" Jackie, when you have no history here and don't really know anything about what a tremendous support she has been to all of us here. You apparently also don't realize that Jackie is a strong advocate for Dr. Natale, for those who have decided that ablation is their next best move. She encourages each of us to first try supplements and other measures before having to make the choice for ablation - which of course has some pretty serious risks - and offers her own personal experiences as well as an impressive amount of research that she has compiled for our benefit. Jackie no longer experiences Afib herself yet comes to this Board regularly to help answer questions and offer advice and information for others who are struggling.

I believe I speak for many others on this Board when I say that your comments to Jackie are rude, inappropriate and unwarranted. She and Hans are generous with their time and tireless in their work to help any and all who come to this Board. She does not deserve the comments you made on this posting - at all.

~ Barb

Hans,

Wow!! Those are shocking statistics. There's certainly a lot of things to like about France. I can't remember the last time I had a pop, and unfortunately wine can be a nasty trigger for me.

I have been on a low carb diet for over a year now and have had excellent results, with marked improvement in Cholesterol and blood sugar readings as well as a weight loss of fifteen lbs.. I start every day off with about 1/2 a cup of steel cut oats, a scoop of low fat yogurt, a few almonds, 1/4 cup of blueberries or other fruit, and I top it off with a tsp. of cinnamon. Within a few minutes of having breakfast I walk over to my gym and do 4-5 miles on the treadmill at between a 4-5 mile hr. pace followed by some weight lifting every other day. Hopefully this will minimize sugar spikes.


Lou

Barb,

For one thing, I have been posting on this board for several years. I do post more often these days.

It is your right to agree or disagree with anything that I post. Feel free to not read my posts if you wish, that is your choice. My posts might have a different view point.

Regarding your assertion that my posts are "rude, inappropriate, and unwarrented", I obviously don't agree. Hans has standards for this site and he will remove posts that violate those standards. This current thread is a pretty mild disagreement compared with some other ones.

FWIW I have received a number of Private Messages and emails from various individuals who thank me for providing a counterpoint to Jackie and Erling. Some people feel that Jackie and Erling push their agenda and don't listen to other points of view. There are lots of examples in past threads.

Jackie has posted many times about her distrust of conventional medicine, that fact is a strong influence and theme in her posts. From a psychological perspective, she has a "conventional medicine complex" due to the poor treatment that she received in the past. Her reaction is somewhat similar to PTSD (this is NOT a criticism of her).

Earlier in this thread, she posts ad nauseum links about low carb dieting while losing sight of the patient (Tom) who is going to endure an ablation. She seems to be ashamed of her own ablation (which goes back to the conventional medicine complex).

Let me be clear: I think Jackie has posted lots of good stuff but I don't agree with the nutrition/diet/ non-surgical approach at any costs agenda and I will continue to disagree on those points. Promoting a process while losing sight of the patient- well, that is something that some practitioners of traditional medicine have been guiilty of-



EB



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2012 01:58AM by FiveBox.

Jackie, thank you for the info from "Wheat Belly".

Hans, as I recall Dr. Davis claimed you would be hard pressed to find the original strains of wheat now, since 90%+ of the wheat worldwide is the new stuff because of its crop yeild ect., as you said it might be a combination of the high fructose syrup. Add this to the other bad food in the modern diet, especially in the US and you get a nasty mix of food that is resulting in declining health. I remember reading in your book that the incidence of afib was increasing, is this due to an aging population? My afib started at 55 years. Is the incidence of afib higher per population in the US and is their a possible tie to what you mentioned about the obesity in other countries compared with the US?

EB, we seem to have a major statistics issue with the truth about GMO wheat, in another recent post Liz claimed the same thing. Either the USDA source is wrong or Dr. Davis is, even though his sources are well documented.

I do find it interesting that the push for the "best diet choices" for US for the last several years is whole grains and the obesity rate and diabetes have increased dramatically, so who should we believe. I don't want to seem like a conspiracy nut but "Big Wheat" is big $.

Hans, Jackie and all that have posted here, I am so glad that this topic has been expanded on, when I happened on the info about wheat a few months ago and then saw a correlation personally with Potassium levels there was a rather tepid response, now I see a real interest in the subject as it might be another important tool in controlling afib.

Tom C.

I have googled GM grains and wheat is not included as a GM grain, so if you can find that wheat is a GM grain, then post it.

Genetically modified organisms, GMOs, are organisms that have been manufactured in laboratories using gene splicing techniques. This biotechnology allows for the DNA of one species to be inserted into the genetic code of another species. Characteristics that can not be obtained through traditional crossbreeding methods are the focus of genetic modification. The most common GMO grains are corn, soybeans and rice. GMO wheat has been researched for years, but not introduced to the global market yet. Although GMOs are banned in many nations, the U.S. is the world leader in GMO research, cultivation and consumption.






Corn



According to the USDA, 86 percent of the corn grown in the U.S. in 2009 was from genetically modified crops. The most common modification in corn crops is the addition of a bacterium known as Bt. This bacterium releases a toxic protein that kills pests such as the corn borer. Unfortunately, the pollen of GMO corn is harmful to other insects as well. A Cornell University study found that pollen from GMO corn that drifted to nearby plants killed 44 percent of the Monarch butterfly larvae in the area. GMO corn is found in obvious products such as corn meal, corn syrup and corn starch. However, 90 percent of the corn grown in the U.S. is fed to livestock so the presence of GMOs can be found in meats and dairy as well.


Rice



In 2001, the genome of the rice plant was mapped out. This led to a substantial increase in research and development of GMO rice. The research was undertaken by a number of different companies and focused on herbicide resistance, beta-carotine content, insect, viral, bacterial and fungal resistances, higher yields, protein and starch content and altering the photosynthesis process. GMO rice can be found in many rice-based products, but also in alcoholic beverages such as beer and sake.





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www.PlantNEXGROW.com


Soybeans



2007 marked the first year where the global soybean crop was predominantly made up of genetically modified crops. 216 million tons were produced that year, with 58 percent made from GMO crops. The United States, Brazil and Argentina are the leading global producers of soybeans and 85 percent of the U.S. crop; 98 percent of the Argentinian crop, and 64 percent of the Brazilian crop were GMO. GMO soybeans are turned into common food additives such as lecithin, an emulsifier found in chocolate, ice cream and margarine. GMO soybeans are also widely used for animal feed.


Wheat



Although GMO wheat is not commercially available, it is one of the most widely researched crops worldwide. Monsanto, the world's leading producer of GMO seeds, abandoned plans to field test GMO wheat in 2004 due to protests from farmers who were worried the GMO wheat would cross pollinate non-GMO wheat and make it unsuitable for export. The main focus of Monsanto's research was to combat a disease known as leaf rust, which destroys an estimated 20 percent of the U.S. wheat crop every year. However, U.S. wheat farmers changed their stance in 2009 due to acreage losses to GMO crops such as corn and soybeans, which are more profitable. Monsanto estimates that GMO wheat will be commercially grown in the U.S. within the next 10 years.

Liz

I am a persistent afibber and it took TIKOSYN to get me into NSR. Regardless of its value, I try to practice a very low carb high protein diet and supplement regularly, especially Magnesium and Potassium. A Cardymeter is on my shopping list.

I keep recalling "We are all an experiment of one". A profound statement indeed.

What works for one does not necessarily work for another although we can each learn from one another's experiences and continue our experiment of one.

I would drivel on about what works for me and what does not - Lord knows I have done that far too many times. But I will continue to read of experiences and will continue to update my status on here if I find any major changes that affect my aFib.

One thing I think we can all agree upon and that is that NSR sure is a nice place to be. NSR without drugs is even nicer as I sit here and grapple with the side effects of TIKOSYN, which for me appear to be relatively mild and well worth the overall results. I seem to have some of my life back and will take an ablation or other surgical relief at some future point in order to rid myself of these side effects I am sure.

A sad situation to be in, for each of us, to be sure. And one does not get a whole lot of understanding from family and friends who have not experienced aFib. After all, we are walking, talking, sitting up and taking sustainance, right?

Thanks for sharing.

Murray L

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tikosyn uptake Dec 2011 500ug b.i.d. NSR since!
Herein lies opinion, not professional advice, which all are well advised to seek.

Tom C… regardless of the debate over ‘hybridized,' cultivars or GM wheat, the bottom line and the topic of this post was …low carb diet.

The main point is if person with afib is has not tried a low-carb eating plan for a minimum of six months, if not longer, then they need to get serious and understand the implications of how a high-carb diet can influence and perpetuate arrhythmia. Even with ablation, when there is glucose handling dysfunction, systemic manifestations are not corrected and other related adverse effects can be influential. All need to be addressed to optimize total health.

As we know, a high carb diet is well known to cause a variety of health issues... ie, the eventual inability to regulate and produce insulin appropriately and the glucose storage problem that accompanies over-consumption of carbs. Inflammation becomes a large factor in metabolic syndrome or insulin resistance resulting from the over-consumption poorly metabolized carbs. It’s all supported in the science we’ve discussed for years... just basic biochemistry.

Many people seem unable to make the association between a high-carb diet and the continual depletion of those key electrolytes we need to keep us in NSR. Some who go on to become diabetic are treated with drugs with the hope they don’t progress to becoming insulin-dependent diabetics. Eliminating the stress on the pancreas by avoiding high-glycemic foods and supporting the body’s glucose handling requirements with specific nutrients often results in a reversal of Type 2 diabetes. Again, again the literature supports that as well as testimonials ..often a celebrity…( Drew Carey comes to mind.) Dr. Ron Rosedale has a remarkable track record for reversing diabetes and even getting diabetics off insulin. In some individuals, the association is clear. In others with systemic abnormalities also running interference, it may not be as “easy” as just eating a low-carb diet or avoiding ‘wheat’ and grains since results may take longer and need more nutritional support.

The fine points of the grain protein that causes many people so much trouble deals with haploid variations. The new testing by Cyrex Labs which tests more in depth and more accurately, helps to identify those individuals at risk. The post on Dangerous Grains and the interview with gluten sensitivity expert, Tom O’Bryan goes into some of the detail.[www.afibbers.net]

Still, the bottom line is the total daily carb intake and how the individual metabolizes and utilizes the resulting glucose. When some individuals eat too many carbs, the problem of using up too much magnesium and potassium becomes a very real influence for afibbers not only because of arrhythmia, but because of all the downstream systems that don’t function properly when magnesium is routinely deficient… not the least of which is cardiac fibrosis.
(See CR 74).

Jackie

Thank you Jackie for keeping us on track! This thread probably should be in the General Health Forum.

So Jackie are you following a ketogenic diet now?

Thank you. Barb, for saying so well what has needed saying for some time. My concern is that readers might actually take seriously what EB puts out. It is unfortunate that the editor allows such incredible statements to stand.

Jackie arrived on this forum in '02, some time after my arrival early in the year. The nutritional cure of my ten year debilitating AF miseries had left me convinced that elimination of AF by natural means was a definite possibility that should be fully explored before yielding to an invasive procedure. Pathologist Patrick Chambers, MD, became involved with the forum about the same time. My purpose was to learn more about this complex condition and to verify the lessons I'd already learned in order to help others with their AF woes. Jackie asked for information and advice -- she had been struggling enormously, to the point of sadly having to retire from her professional dental career. We corresponded on specific aspects of AF cause and correction as were understood at the time. She became convinced that magnesium deficiency correction should be her top priority, so went all out with nutrition and other healing modalities, essentially curing herself, going from near permanent AF to zero AF for several months prior to ablation, and even considered cancelling her appointment with Dr. Natale - as she relates in the post above: [www.afibbers.org]

On Feb. 15 - '04 Jackie posted the following:
==========

This post is long.

Hans suggested I post it for those who are interested in the topic. I offer no medical advice. This is simply what worked for me based on what was directed by my doctors and my own experimentation. If anyone can glean a nugget or two that is helpful information, I’m happy to have offered my findings. Jackie

CALMING MY HEART

This is my story..... How I calmed my heart prior to ablation… and after.
Three distinct components blended into one harmonious remedy worked for me - …Mind, Body and Spirit.

I was already tuned in to holistic healing from research on my other conditions, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, candidiasis, hypoadrenalism and hypothyroidism, so I just added atrial fibrillation to my list of search topics and added more targeted nutrients directed by my doctor, but other healing modalities are also involved.

To summarize in a few words what I think helped me the most, I'd say magnesium, taurine, potassium, energy work, and acceptance of a higher power and my own spirituality. Almost a year after I began this calming quest, I know I am not the same person who set out on the journey.

Background

My first afib event occurred at age 59 and lasted for about an hour and a half. Over the next eight years, the events increased in frequency until January 2003 when I began experiencing daily or every other-day events that were lasting over 20 hours.

At that time and after two trips to the ER, six weeks apart with 3 and 4 day stays in the hospital for breakthrough arrhythmia while on Flecainide, and involving a TEE and cardioversion at one visit, it was suggested that I give serious thought to ablation. I refused the attempt to reintroduce a beta blocker since I had taken myself off Toprol XL six months prior and felt much better without it, although the event frequency remained the same. Clearly, drugs were not the answer for me in controlling afib.

Ablation. What I had never, ever wanted to do and wouldn't even consider previously. Yet, I knew I couldn't go on with this pattern every six weeks. I was on 200 mg. a day of Flecainide and was feeling the effects of the double dose - fatigue and lethargy. I had instructions to take an additional 100 mg. every time afib began, …so I was taking the extra dose every day or every other day. I was very nervous about the high dosage.

During my consultation appointment at the Cleveland Clinic with EP, Andrea Natale, MD, the EP nurse told me that the more calm my heart at the time of ablation, the better my chances would be for a successful and calm heart after the ablation. I thought at the time, well good luck. If I could keep my heart calm, I wouldn't have just had two 3 day sessions in the ER with runaway afib.

Nevertheless, I took the comment to heart and collaborated with my functional medicine MD (Dr. Sprecher) about the best approach to do just that… - calm my heart and hopefully cure this condition so an ablation wouldn't be necessary. That was my ultimate goal. This was in early April, 2003. I was assigned an ablation date of November 12. Six months of waiting and six months to affect a cure.

The Calming Plan

Dr. Sprecher suggested I work on each facet of healing - mind, body and spirit. I pulled out all the stops.

In addition to the already lengthy list of targeted nutrients she directed, I consulted with a homeopath, a psychologist who does mind, body, spirit work, an MD who does acupuncture and has a Doctor of Chinese Medicine degree, several massage therapists, and a chiropractic physician who does energy work based on Applied Kinesiology. And, I had the support of fellow afibbers on the forum offering suggestions and current ablation research. Erling Waller, Jim W., Stan B, Lorraine, Hans… - everyone helped me sort out ablation facts. This was invaluable support.

The homeopathic approach was a bust. I quickly fired him. The psychologist was viewing me as long-term income; my gut instinct rejected this approach; I fired him. I had about 20 acupuncture treatments that were calming, but didn't seem to help, although I learned a lot about Chinese Medicine and energy between sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. I can't say it didn't help, but it didn't stop the breakthrough arrhythmia.

It was kismet that I found the chiropractor who does energy work. A friend was seeing him for neck pain which he traced to blocked emotions and negative energy. The bells went off and I made an appointment. I knew I had a lot of stuffed emotions and stress and knew instinctively that issue was part of my problem. I was drawn to that connection the minute she started describing his work.

I began NET treatments (Neuro Emotional Technique) which includes Applied Kinesiology, with Dr. Jordan the first of July (having wasted far too much valuable time with the other approaches) and saw him twice a week for about six weeks.

Various conditions were discovered and addressed through NET wherein locked emotional responses called Neuro Emotional Complexes (emotional reality) are detected with reflex responses or patterns …much like the Pavlov-dog response. Negative emotional responses (either conscious or unconscious) can manifest as symptoms and the result is ill health and imbalance. Neuropeptides carry emotions throughout the body. NET seeks to normalize neurological imbalances using physical corrections and removes the blocks to the body's natural healing process.

One very significant finding was a displaced diaphragm that was causing hiccoughs that set off afib immediately. Once the diaphragm was repositioned and it held in that position (about five treatments), I no longer triggered afib in that manner. Hiccoughs are a spasm of the diaphragm and are attributed to magnesium deficiency.

Concomitant with that, Erling Waller, who had previously attempted to get me to understand the importance of magnesium deficiency by sending me very convincing evidence on the subject, began again to hammer away at intractable magnesium deficiency. All the while I thought I was taking enough magnesium…, 400 mg. a day plus that from my food. I continued to read the data.

Finally, I had a revelation based on a posting from Carol on the BB saying she increased her magnesium up to 800 or 1,000 mg daily and had stopped her afib. I tried increasing gradually while I was getting the emotional energy work from Dr. Jordan. After the first session, I went 5 days without an event. This was a record. Then, I went a week, then 13 days, and by the end of August… breakthrough arrhythmia was not a common occurrence. If it happened, it was short… - sometimes 2 hours or less. Previously, I was always afibbing for around or over 20 hours. The record was 39 hours before converting on my own.

In my case, Erling was right about magnesium deficiency. My magnesium glycinate dosage was at 800 mg. daily. I also made a conscious effort to use only unsoftened water for drinking and cooking. While I have a well with hard water and a separate spigot in another area for unsoftened water, I admit to frequently being lazy and just using what was handy. After reading that water softened with sodium (either well water or municipal water) removes magnesium and calcium, I resolved not to use the water produced from our in-house softening system and to take 100% advantage of our naturally occurring spring water.

Additionally, Dr. Jordan found my thyroid was low by AK testing, even though my labs indicated normal, and added an additional support supplement for thyroid along with homeopathics for heart and emotions…. anger, repression, fear, fear of abandonment, disappointment, sadness - all of these blocked emotions he uncovered and released while doing the energy work. This was the mind/body part of the triad. It served to force me to acknowledge emotional stresses I had been suppressing for years, and to deal with the reality of eliminating the causes of the stress. This is an ongoing project.

Negative energy is very damaging. One can't attain or maintain health in its presence. I began to play constantly audio tapes given to me by friends who knew of my journey. They were the smart ones who understood better than I about the mind/ body/ spirit connection. The tapes by Carolyn Myss - Why People Dont Heal and How they Can along with Wayne Dyers A Spiritual Solution for Every Problem, became my favorites because they spoke to me the most in terms of what I needed to address. Books that helped shape my thoughts were The Art of Effortless Living, Full Catastrophe Living, and Power versus Force.

I had always stayed away from the spiritual aspect because I lumped spiritualism and religion together. Having had a very traumatic experience with religion early on in my life, I shied away from anything religious, but suddenly these tapes (and again, Erling - my mentor) opened my mind to spiritual healing and awareness. I got comfortable with the thought that I was a spiritual being and recognized that I had denied myself this privilege most all of my adult life. This was quite a revelation because I had always prided myself in being open minded; yet I was totally closed to spirituality. But once I let the thought develop and I became comfortable, my life and condition began to change and all for the better.

By mid-September, the new me was afib free but still on Flecanide, and I decided to wean off. Time was running out.… I hoped to cancel the ablation, but in less than a week I went into a nasty afib event. I chickened out. Went back on the Flecanide and focused on getting a calm heart (again) by the time of ablation.

Both Dr. Sprecher and Dr. Jordan worked to honor my ablation commitment and to help me become comfortable with it. They both insisted that if I had doubts or fears that ablation wouldn't work or the outcome wouldn't be good…, it wouldn't be. (You are what you think.) We worked very hard on my mindset.

By the ablation date, I had been afib free for two months (but still on the drug). I faced all my concerns about the ablation and concentrated on thinking nothing but positive thoughts about the outcome. With the help of the energy work, I became comfortable and at peace with having the procedure I never wanted. I even accepted the Coumadin issue.

All thoughts were about the positive outcome and I developed a mantra which I said anytime my mind began to waver or I had negative thoughts: Manifest Peace in My Heart….. either out loud if I were alone, or to myself, otherwise. I did this while placing one hand on my solar plexus. Sometimes I positioned my hands differently or if I were driving, I just held on to the steering wheel and focused on breathing through my heart with positive energy and positive thoughts. I developed a whole script of manifests that I said then and continue to say now. I connect with my spiritual being many times a day. Any time I feel my thoughts drifting into negative territory or I feel stressed, I become centered again with my focus or grounded by my mantras.

Coupled with this mantra ritual, I incorporated my use of essential therapeutic essential oils from plants known to create cellular energy and possess strong antioxidant properties. This was just a natural complement.

I had an energy session with Dr. Jordan about 4 days prior to the ablation to eliminate any negative energy or fears and to create only positive energy and acceptance. He pronounced that I tested very strong and was ready for the procedure. I repeated the sequence, visiting him again 4 days after ablation for more clearing.

The night before the ablation, I was calm and peaceful. I went to bed with my manifests in place and slept well until early morning. Normally, the hours drive to the hospital would have been an anxious one…. I was very calm and I said the manifest-peace-in-my-heart mantra constantly. I had absolutely no fear or anxiety at any time before, during or after the procedure.

On a physical level, in mid-September, I began working out more days and more intensely. This was difficult with the burden of the extra Flecanide but I kept pushing. By the time of ablation, I was doing well; my stamina had increased and I felt stronger, overall. I hated to think I would have to lay off during the recovery period.

Additionally during this time of no afib but still on Flecanide, I was able to do some things that had previously triggered afib….. bend over from the waist for an extended period of time; lie or sleep on my left side; lie down flat in bed the minute immediately and even some of the former triggers such as desert or cheese did not bring on afib.

About three weeks prior to ablation, I took increased doses of Vitamin C (2 grams daily) with bioflavonoids to reduce trauma effects and inflammation. I was given that instruction with another surgery. Thought it couldnt hurt with this procedure. And I stopped the use of ginkgo, Vitamin E and the occasional aspirin, since I was going to be on Coumadin two weeks before ablation and at least 6 weeks after.

By the date of ablation, I was comfortable with taking 800 mg. of magnesium glycinate a day. The brand I chose was Metagenics. I took it to the hospital with me and planned to take it at my first opportunity after I was free to move around. My reasoning was that stress depletes magnesium and I had no reason to think that my body would not consider ablation a huge stressor.

I took 200 mg. of the MgG every couple of hours until it was time for discharge. I also took regular doses of Vitamin C with bioflavonoids (500 mg.) to reduce inflammation and a natural, plant-based product called Phytoprofen. The reasoning was to control as much inflammation as possible.

Of course, I did not share any of this with the hospital staff. However, they knew I was using the therapeutic essential oils of plants because of the lovely, calming fragrance and effect of Lavender oil…just entering my room made the staff wonder what the wonderful smell was. Some came in to get a fix and left. It was fun. My room mate who had terminal liver failure found it especially comforting.

Once home, I continued my daily supplement routine but added increased amounts of natural anti-inflammatory plant-based products….like quercetain, bromelain and tumeric. And I maintained the higher C dose for six weeks.

Additionally, I continued with all the good blood thinning support like Omega 3 oils even though I was on Coumadin. I was only taking CoQ10 at 100 mg. when I came home, but soon realized with the problems created by Lipitor, I needed much more so I increased it to 500 a day.

The Results

From the time of the ablation to present, I have been afib free.

2 months before ablation on Flecainide, no breakthrough afib.
2 months after ablation on Flecainide & Coumadin, no afib
1 month off both drugs, no afib -- added Nattokinase for anti-clotting
3 months post ablation: Calm heart. No Drugs. No afib.
I have no residual symptoms of afib or the ablation.

In the first two months post ablation, I had 9 PACs and six of those beats were a pattern that felt as if it would progress to afib. It did not. While off all drugs, I get an occasional single missed beat or a thud. Nothing else.

When I work out, my elevated heart rate returns quickly to normal. Occasionally when I lie down for the night, I feel a jittery feeling in my chest, but my heart beat is normal. I just do my mantras and fall asleep. My sleep is deep and uninterrupted.

I take no prescription drugs except my natural hormone patch and cream.
My last official blood pressure reading was 114/68 - Pulse 76. At rest, my pulse is around 65.

My heart is peaceful. I'm grateful. I thank God, Dr. Natale and all the wonderful people on this forum for helping me reach this goal. Your support is invaluable and very much appreciated.

Thank you with all my heart! (and soul). Jackie Burgess

67 vagal/ ablated

(Please read the many heartfelt replies: [www.afibbers.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2012 09:23PM by Erling.

Erling,

I believe EB has as much right to be heard as does everyone else and, quite frankly, I do not find his statements "incredible".

I am not going to carry on this increasingly personal debate and further postings on this thread will be deleted.

Hans



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2012 10:28PM by Hans Larsen.