AF cure and reductionism?

You can't get there from here. Take a look at Vaucanson's duck to see what I mean: [en.wikipedia.org]

This AF forum has been reductionist from the beginning. There was an opportunity for holism (whole-ism) at the beginning when Jerry in CR 2 offered up exceedingly important holistic information from biophysicist Richard Moore's The High Blood Pressure Solution. Had he attributed the information to Dr. Moore's book it's likely we wouldn't have spent the following 9 years without the word "voltage" in the dialogues.

Don't believe it? Do as I did and read through every CR session -- a fantastic learning experience, by the way -- and you'll see Jerry's use of "voltage" on p. 20 of CR 2 [www.afibbers.org] and not again until p. 1 of CR 72 [www.afibbers.org]

This is important because without an understanding of the heart's electromagnetism generated by the voltage produced by the myriad sodium/ potassium pumps, one is forever "reduced" to looking for answers to AF's complexity by looking at various parts and pieces called 'magnesium' and 'potassium' and 'sodium' and 'etc'. CR 72 used Dr. Moore's knowledge to show that the heart's optimal voltage relies on a dietary potassium/ sodium ratio of at least 4 to 1, but was still limited to reductionisism.

AF cure will be by understanding the heart's electrical functioning holistically. There's a burgeoning field in medical science called "energy cardiology", a sub-specialty within "integrative" medicine:

Bioenergy Feedback and Energy Cardiology: A Challenge for Integrative Medicine [www.futurehealth.org]
Gary E. R. Schwartz, Ph.D. and Linda G. S. Russek, Ph.D.
University of Arizona, Tucson.


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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2012 06:09PM by Erling.

Thank you, Thank you, Erling for helping guide us once again. I can't believe that Jerry didn't attribute credit to the bonafide author of that advice. If he had, certainly, many of us may have taken the whole concept much more seriously back then and enjoyed success much sooner.

You know my passion for energy healing so I'm obviously very interested in becoming totally immersed in the work by Schwartz and Russek. Thanks for posting that link. At my energy adjustment treatment today, we were discussing healing by fields of energy. How timely!

Jackie

Got my Erling fix today with another "hammer to the head" that its electrolytes, that the heart is electrical and that sodium is the enemy, thanks Erling!

TP

Yes Tom, get rid of sodium and you get rid of AF. ;-)

Without sodium we die.

Barry G.

Barry:

We all need salt-- sodium, potassium, magnesium, zinc, copper, we need all of these electorlytes. I use celtic sea salt and I do not take any blood pressure meds. People sometimes go to far in either direction.

Liz

Hi Erling - and all - great post yet again.

Has I have said a few times lately we have to look outside the box for the AF answer and the impression I get from both yours and Jackies posts is that we possibly have been trapped inside a box all along with, on the face of it, a plastic copy of real Waller Water.

I presume the following is the paragraph you make mention to in you post above.....

The acid pump works by driving Hydrogen ions (H+) out of the cell, thus increasing cellular ALKALINITY. However, if our Potassium
concentration falls, then the Sodium/Potassium Pump is allowed to discharge, as is the Acid
Pump, and the loss of membrane VOLTAGE allows ACID to accumulate inside our cells (CELLULAR
ACIDOSIS). An increase in cellular pH (ALKALINITY) is related to beneficial protein synthesis and newcell
growth. We've been drinking WW, which allows Bicarb to bring Mag into our cells, thus
elevating our pH. - All emphasis mine

Devils advocate kicking in now and open to correction by anyone as I am a layman on just about everything.

If the above is true then the acid/alkaline pH levels of the body would appear to be very important indeed yet the info has been waiting outside the box all this time apart from a rare reference to it by a person in 2009, I think. This is much as Jerry's info in your post above which mentioned a very important point about voltage without driving it home conclusively and which could have changed the course of the BB over the last 9 years.

As you may know I am into reading up on the bodies pH and the benifits that it can bring, unfortunately I have the memory span of a goldfish but at least the gist of what I read tends to stay on the 'hard disc' - details can be confirmed later if required.
I find it amazing that our body fluid in which all our muscles, joints,organs, arteries, veins, vagal nerve systems, etc etc slosh around in and greatly interact with chemically is called Lymph and it amounts to a good % of our total body weight as one can imagine.
Now I have been reading this BB and just about every other thing regarding AF since August 2006 and I have never come across the word lymph, unbelievable considering its importance. I do have selective reading habits though.

This lymph fluid has no pump to circulate it so it depends on body movement to move it around and get it to where it is finally processed and filtered of body toxins, a very important reason for it being there in the first place. In our western lifestyle where turning over on the sofa seems to be the extent of the exercise for the day the lymph can and easily does gets stagnant especially in nicks and cranies along with its load of toxins waiting to be disposed of thus encouraging the formation of fungus/disease. In contrast paleoman would have been on the move all the time and thus continually refreshing and oxygen fueling his lymph reserves raising its pH, this rather than than any theoretical diet may have been the secret of his success in his survival, relitively disease free as long as food supplies held out.

I believe up to press that lymph can be alkalized and oxgenated very simply by diet, execrcise, and raising the fluids pH. I appreciate that the recently revamped Waller Water will alkalize the body and raise the pH very quickly and safely however I like others on this BB have no access to Milk of Magnesia a vital ingredient. Asking for Magnesium Hydroxide at a pharmacy here in Hong Kong and the shop assisstants eyes will roll for a few seconds then stop when two question marks come up, rabbit in the headlights come to mind. As a substitute for Waller Water I use Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) which is available everwhere in the world and is the cheapest, safe super drug in the world acccording to who you chose to believe.

Akalizing and keeping the mass of lymph free of stagnant toxins must help reduce workload/stress on the body and could possibly lower a persons AF burden and that is without going into the possible fact that acidic lymph will be low voltage (an haven for fungus/disease) whereas alkaline lymph will be high voltage i.e. disease free and none corrosive irritant to all that are bathed in its fluid.

Given the above trying to cure anything without cleaning out the systems first would seem a total waste of time.

No brainer to me.

Barry G.
Just musing as its raining outside.
Barry G.

Hi Liz, I concur with your statement on going too far in either direction.

I only use sea salt from the seas off New Zealand and then only on egg sandwiches or chips ( French Fries to none Brits).

I have normal blood pressure of around 130 over 76 when sat at the computer but I estimate that if I sat down for 5 minutes in peace and quiet it would be around 122/70 going off experience. I don't haunt the blood pressure monitor these days.

When I was an active afibber my blood pressure, even when not in AF, would be up in the 140 -160 / 85 - 90 range minimum simply because I was on AF alert 24/7, it had nothing to do with sodium or anything else. With those high figures, for me, and the AF situation I was struggling with I fully understand the saying 'Afib begets Afib', I lived it.

Barry G.

Barry:

If exercise is what is needed to move around our Lymph system so that we won't get diseases and AF, then runners, people that exercise strenuously should never get AF, yet these are the people that do get AF.

Liz

Hi Barry -

Well, too much sodium and we die. The word "balance" is kinda good, but "voltage" is much better, because too much sodium in the cells lowers their voltage (and a bunch of other bad things) and then we get arrhythmias (and a bunch of other bad things) and then we die. . .

Ere long.

Hi Erling,

I read the article on Dr. Richard Moore, which was really interesting. It sounds like the Finnish people have figured out the sodium intake solution. I live in Canada and the majority of our federal budget goes to health care. I don't understand why the governments of Canada and the U.S. don't jump on board and regulate the sodium intake in all foods that we purchase. When you look at how much junk food, packaged and processed foods our younger generation consumes, it's really frightening.
Thank you for your dedication, and information you continue to contribute to this board.

Lou

Lou:

No, no, no, we don't need the gov. to tell us how much salt we should have or shouldn't have, we the people should decide what we put into our bodies.

Liz

Oh Liz,

So you think it's fine to have the Salt Institute, the food industry, and the mostly clueless doctors dictate how much sodium (salt) is fine for We The People?? We've been here before, and a most outrageous thing was hearing we should salt our way to health.-- in spite of towering science to the contrary.

But lets get this thread back on track. It's impossible to talk rationally about the effect of anything going into the body's cells (e.g. sodium) without understanding cells as complex electro-chemical / electronic systems, where everything has some effect on everything else (holism). The cells' electro-chemical energy (shown as voltage on the ECG) is driven by the relationship between sodium and potassium. Too much sodium lowers the cells' voltage, compromising their myriad life functions, ultimately killing them.

Erling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2012 02:05PM by Erling.

Barry - I'm late in reading your responses but I do appreciate your input... ie,
Alkalizing and keeping the mass of lymph free of stagnant toxins must help reduce workload/stress on the body and could possibly lower a persons AF burden and that is without going into the possible fact that acidic lymph will be low voltage (an haven for fungus/disease) whereas alkaline lymph will be high voltage i.e. disease free and none corrosive irritant to all that are bathed in its fluid.

A poorly functioning lymph system that is driven by an acidic overload is definitely toxic sludge for the body. This all ties in with low frequency and low voltage that's been discussed in the post on
Alkalinity, Healing, pH and Voltage - The Inside Story
[www.afibbers.org] and the other Mg bicarb water posts...and is extremely important to keep in mind as you are when discussing overall health.

Thank you. It is a no brainer.

Be well,
Jackie

Erling:


We will agree to disagree about salt---the point being if I use salt that should be my choice, the same as with vitamins. What if the gov. says we will need a prescription for vitamins, also magnesium. There are posts on here from the vitamin industry where that is indeed being tried, I do not want that to happen either.

Liz

Many thanks, Lou - and thanks for reading!

Why haven't You Heard of These Developments? is Dr. Richard Moore's introduction to his 2001 The High Blood Pressure Solution. It includes the intentional "disappearing" of his 1986 book The K factor which covered the same holistic cell biophysics as his later books. My constant referring to Dr. Moore for cell science must seem a weird fixation to some, but the total science is nowhere else in readily accessible form -- such was the successful suppression of this life and health saving knowledge in the late '80s and beyond. For 25 years -- 1986 to CR 72 in 2011 -- this holistic science of cell function was essentially inaccessible to the deciphering of AF -- unless one was guided to it, as Jerry certainly should have done in '03, CR 2. p. 20.

Applying CR 72's information is the closest to AF cure possible short of invoking the newer sciences of epigenetics and quantum biology. These sciences will be included in a book on AF cure to be published within a year (he says hopefully). In the meantime there are leading statements beginning on p. 50 Interim Summary CR 72 [www.afibbers.org]

A condenced Why haven't You Heard of These Developments? was posted a year ago. This seems a good time to revisit Moore's insightful story: [www.afibbers.org]

================================

You probably saw this topic by Jackie last month: This week, Dr. Mercola - Interesting Awareness Alert [www.afibbers.org] It begins:

Modern Medical Care is a Leading Cause of Death

Introduction

In 1776, Dr. Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, foretold a grim scenario that has now taken shape right before our eyes. He said:

"Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution the time will come when medicine will organize itself into an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to doctors and deny equal privileges to others will constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic."

Now, in 2012, we are very much facing this reality, as we live in an era where our medical freedom is increasingly under attack, and "healing" has been replaced with "treating" disease, most often with toxic chemicals and surgery.

Then there is this telling 2011 statement by Sayer Ji @ [www.greenmedinfo.com]: Within our present dominant medical system, healing has not simply been forgotten but intentionally exorcized as it represents the antithesis of perpetual profitability which requires the incurability of the human body. Were the truth be told, and the body's self-regenerative capabilities acknowledged, the entire superstructure of drug-based medicine and hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue it generates annually, would crumble overnight.

Take good care!

Erling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2012 01:14AM by Erling.

Hi Liz,

thanks for the heads up on the runners, why didn't I think of that when I was a runner and whose running was the major AF trigger for me ;-)

"Akalizing and keeping the mass of lymph free of stagnant toxins must help reduce workload/stress on the body and could possibly lower a persons AF burden and that is without going into the possible fact that acidic lymph will be low voltage (an haven for fungus/disease) whereas alkaline lymph will be high voltage i.e. disease free and none corrosive irritant to all that are bathed in its fluid".


The sentence above taken straight out of my earlier post uses the words 'could possibly lower' there is no mention of 'will lower'. It is just a common sense point of view. The only thing I would change is the 'disease free and none corrosive irritant to all that are bathed in its fluid' which is confusing. Acidic lymph is corrosive and a possible irritant and we see plenty of comments about the Vagal Nerve being irritated and causing AF. The Vagal Nerve on its long journey from the brain down thru the body will be bathed in lymph that could be either static, acidic, fungus ridden sludge in the worst case or clear free moving alkaline fluid in the best case, the choice is in the hands of the individual.

Erling and Jackie's posts appear to strongly lean to an 'wholistic' approach to combating the AF mystery and keeping one's lymph in good shape would seem to me to be a key part of the jigsaw given its high percentage of the total body mass and its detoxifying duties which will help to keep the bodies voltage up and which we are coming to understand could be critical to maintaining NSR.

On my first visit to Bordeaux in 2008 I met a young English guy who was part of a research team trying to get to the bottom of how Afib comes about and he was looking at the possibilty that its all caused by a few things going wrong at the same time and which need to be cleared up all at the same time, never got into the details. This would seem to tally with the 'wholistic' path opening up via recent postings to the BB.

Barry G.

Hi Erling.

Just to knock the ball back over the net again.

I would certainly not question that sodium/ potassium levels must be balanced however I tend to believe the kidneys balance the two out in normal healthy people who eat sensibly i.e. no junk food etc. Intake of too much of either one is not recommended and the main ingredient of the fatal concoction used on death row is potassium not sodium. If there was much milage to ridding oneself of AF by taking less of one and more of the other the BB would have shut down years ago.

Anybody know what too much salt actually is and is sea salt the same as salt mined out of the land.

My mother and father were 'nailed' together throughout their married life and will have eaten exactly the same thing at exactly the same times in more or less exactly the same quantities. Mam would have put salt in every meal and Dad would have added some more salt from the salt pot to add 'taste', no warning about table salt in those days.

Dad died aged 84 afib free and Mam died aged 83 a prisoner of serious afib.

I recently read that the pH of sea (salt) water ranges at around pH7.5 and above when the human body - which we are told evolved via the oceans - should be in the range of pH7.35 to 7.45, no co-incidence there!!! ;-)

Barry G.

Hi Barry - while each 'body' is essentially identical in physical makeup, function and efficiency can and does vary by individual. One person may tolerate more or less of various essential elements than another. That's exactly why even the best designed human subject clinical trials often have unexplained variables.

As we know, the body has a remarkable ability to adapt to maintain homeostasis at all costs. The sodium/salt intake is certainly a classic example. Some individuals lose the ability to get rid of overabundances which become cumulative and/or detrimental while others "seemingly" tolerate amounts considered to be high but may just be tolerated longer before an adverse manifestation shows up.

The years of remarkably brilliant research produced by Richard Moore and his team are strong evidence that imbalances (Na/K) cause these regulatory systems to wear out and malfunction due to failure of compensatory function.

Jackie