Mandatory vaccine

Topic on work Facebook group today was mandatory covid vaccine for our large work force (6k). Vaccines make me really nervous about possibly triggering afibb, matter of fact any medicine or medical procedure raises concerns. With a successful ablation I don't want anything to put this in Jeopardy. Would afibb be grounds for medical exemption??

No.

Vaccines don't cause afib, and if you've had a successful ablation then nothing causes afib. Don't be foolish and get yourself killed over irrational fear of a non-lethal disease you don't have.

Please see the health threads about ivermectin. [www.afibbers.org]

As to vaccines. I initially liked Moderna over Pfizer because it's more logistically robust.

The AZ Oxford trial needs to be redone. Any community college professor would tell them to do it again and don't screw it up this time. They need to achieve 90%+ with a diverse group (the high success half dose cohort of 2800 with the low dose/high dose were healthy and young)

Before you get excited about everyone else getting the vaccine and you not getting it and depending on herd immunity - Moderna already blew up your fantasy - because vaccines only protect those that take them - virus is still shed from vaccinated people and the unvaxed are vulnerable.

[www.fastcompany.com]

AZ data also suggests viral replication still occurs in the upper respiratory tract. Maybe/maybe not

[www.wired.com]

Lots of time for more data to come - I am in last phase for vax and until then - the MATH and MASK protocols and ivermectin.

Updated post - looks like AZ will have to redo trial for US approval.

[techcrunch.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2020 04:20PM by NotLyingAboutMyAfib.

I will take the vaccine; I will continue to be smart like wearing mask, social distancing, washing my hands etc. It amazes me when people go negative and they are Media Gurus or not even in the medical field. I know Carey has a medical background. Me, I am just a old Dusty retired EE. 😁
I took the flu shot this year as usual. I have had to Ablations with Dr. Natale. Not trying to be political but I am from Louisiana so you can take it that I am red in most of my views but not ultra conservative by any stretch of the imagination. Moderate.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving to all and happy NSR.

Was reading potential side effects of the participants of the trails, high fever, body ache, extreme head aches etc. Also that 2 doses may be necessary. Not anti vaccine but golly, last time I had high fever, body aches etc I went into 72 hour afibb episode. That spurred me into getting the ablation. I have all the Vac's, my mom had me blindly shot up with with whatever the Doc's told her to🙄 in the 80's and 90's. Who knows what was in all those concoctions. Love mom's but if a doc told her the earth was flat well the earth is flat😂

So getting a EP to fill out exemption would seems like and appropriate precaution..... Guess it may also depend on their thoughts on vaccines.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2020 01:15PM by Kleinkp.

No it most likely wont send you into afib. But it still should not be mandatory for various reasons.

All of the COVID vaccines are double doses. That’s what has been trialed so that’s what gets approved. There won’t be any differences for quite some time.

As for side effects, remember they have to list everything that anyone - even one person - describes. If the side effects were a big deal then approval wouldn’t be given. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines look great. AstraZeneca has some shade on it at this point and needs to do a proper Phase 3 controlled study. It may be good but look for that in March at the earliest.

I have no fear of a COVID vaccine, but I probably won’t get one until late next year being a 46 year old with no comorbidities. I’m the last in line.

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Kleinkp
Not anti vaccine but golly, last time I had high fever, body aches etc I went into 72 hour afibb episode. That spurred me into getting the ablation.

You don't seem to have accepted the fact that you had a successful ablation and your heart is no longer capable of sustaining afib.

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Carey
You don't seem to have accepted the fact that you had a successful ablation and your heart is no longer capable of sustaining afib.

Interesting idea. A successful ablation would be robust enough to allow a person to drink caffeine, eat chocolate, alcohol, etc - do all of the 'triggers' suspected, yet most people that have an ablation still walk the tightrope to some degree.

Not saying one can have an ablation and then do cocaine like Maradona but maybe there's a demarc between afib capable and afib incapable.

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Carey


You don't seem to have accepted the fact that you had a successful ablation and your heart is no longer capable of sustaining afib.

You're not wrong. After over a decade of dealing, it's hard to fully accept



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2020 10:16PM by Kleinkp.

NLAMA said: "Interesting idea. A successful ablation would be robust enough to allow a person to drink caffeine, eat chocolate, alcohol, etc - do all of the 'triggers' suspected, yet most people that have an ablation still walk the tightrope to some degree."

I have done and continue to do all of the above "triggers" after both ablations with no issues. I do take Mg, K and Taurine. I do believe there is a correlation between afib and low Mg and K. The supplements have pretty much eliminated past 1-3 second runs of arrhythmias, which used to lead to afib.

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NotLyingAboutMyAfib
Interesting idea. A successful ablation would be robust enough to allow a person to drink caffeine, eat chocolate, alcohol, etc - do all of the 'triggers' suspected, yet most people that have an ablation still walk the tightrope to some degree.

Yes, it's an interesting idea because it's exactly the whole idea of ablation. An ablation is like cutting the wires to a bomb. You can apply as much electricity as you want to one end of the wire but it will never detonate the bomb because the electricity can't get to the bomb. And that's exactly what happens in an ablation. If you put a mapping catheter into my pulmonary veins right now, I'm sure you'd see afib signals blazing away. Ditto with my LAA and my coronary sinus. But I don't care because it's physically impossible for those signals to go anywhere. I could run a marathon on a hot day without a drop of water, then go home and guzzle booze, drink a liter of black coffee, eat a huge block of dark chocolate, and have a nice big Chinese meal loaded with MSG -- and I would still remain in NSR. Afib cannot happen because the wires are cut.

So if you've had an ablation and haven't experienced sustained afib or flutter in 12 months without the use of antiarrhythmic drugs, your ablation was fully successful and your wires are cut. Get off the tightrope.

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Carey

So if you've had an ablation and haven't experienced sustained afib or flutter in 12 months without the use of antiarrhythmic drugs, your ablation was fully successful and your wires are cut. Get off the tightrope.

I am 3.5 yrs post my 4th ablation and 1st Natale successful ablation. Last Christmas I decided to be "normal" and decided to try some alcohol here and there. Probably a few drinks a week every week for a month. One night I deicided to hit it a bit harder and no doubt I went into "something" for about 15 to 20 seconds. Could not catch it on Kardia as I was at a pub. I also know technically under 30 seconds would not be counted as afib and it could have been a cluster of PVC, PAC etc.

Pre ablation alcohol was a trigger fairly consistent for me. My CS is isolated as well. I also notice my heart rate is very sensitive
to alcohol, even a little can cause a 20BPM increase. Not necessarily afib but also uncomfortable as my resting HR tends to spend a lot of time around 90 even still.

Long story short, scientifically I agree with you, psychologically I choose to have a very random drink these days at best, and it is a very weak one. I find the increased heart rate and increased PAC activity that results not worth it whether it would turn to afib or not.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2020 05:04PM by Fibrillator.

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Fibrillator
I am 3.5 yrs post my 4th ablation and 1st Natale successful ablation. Last Christmas I decided to be "normal" and decided to try some alcohol here and there. Probably a few drinks a week every week for a month. One night I deicided to hit it a bit harder and no doubt I went into "something" for about 15 to 20 seconds. Could not catch it on Kardia as I was at a pub. I also know technically under 30 seconds would not be counted as afib and it could have been a cluster of PVC, PAC etc.

Pre ablation alcohol was a trigger fairly consistent for me. My CS is isolated as well. I also notice my heart rate is very sensitive
to alcohol, even a little can cause a 20BPM increase. Not necessarily afib but also uncomfortable as my resting HR tends to spend a lot of time around 90 even still.

Long story short, scientifically I agree with you, psychologically I choose to have a very random drink these days at best, and it is a very weak one. I find the increased heart rate and increased PAC activity that results not worth it whether it would turn to afib or not.

Interesting. I've never heard of alcohol increasing a heart rate by 20 bpm. So I can understand your reluctance to drink alcohol since you experience other symptoms from it, and it sounds like a wise thing to do since your heart obviously doesn't like alcohol, but the fact that that 15-20 second episode didn't progress to sustained afib demonstrates the point. Your heart "wanted" to go into afib from the alcohol, and prior to the ablation it probably would have, but it simply couldn't due to the ablation. That's actually a really good example of how ablations work.

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Carey

Interesting. I've never heard of alcohol increasing a heart rate by 20 bpm. So I can understand your reluctance to drink alcohol since you experience other symptoms from it, and it sounds like a wise thing to do since your heart obviously doesn't like alcohol, but the fact that that 15-20 second episode didn't progress to sustained afib demonstrates the point. Your heart "wanted" to go into afib from the alcohol, and prior to the ablation it probably would have, but it simply couldn't due to the ablation. That's actually a really good example of how ablations work.

Indeed. I have a PLSVC which means I probably have some unique electrical pathways most do not. For a long time now I have been bothered by significant muscle fasciculations as well. After over a decade of doctors looking at that one can call it a "channelopathy" of some sort. Potassium, calcium channel issue, likley related to afib as well and probably tied together in some unique genetic crap one day likely to never be understood till they bury me.

I do not plan on getting the vaccine anytime soon.

Not enough long time aftermath studies, ( none, BTW)

lisa
__________________________

So much of medicine is looking solely down the wrong end of the gun barrel, and that is really a pity for all of us---Shannon

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Carey

Yes, it's an interesting idea because it's exactly the whole idea of ablation. An ablation is like cutting the wires to a bomb. You can apply as much electricity as you want to one end of the wire but it will never detonate the bomb because the electricity can't get to the bomb. And that's exactly what happens in an ablation.

So why does people need multiple ablations, if for example, a top tier ER goes back in and the PVI held—the wires were cut. If the wires were cut and the PVI held during mapping, how does one’s AF return because the LAA, CS, etc, suddenly start firing? The PVI would be the wall. How did the signals penetrate the barrier?

If not, there will be endless touch ups. You had 6. Many here 2-3.

As one who has had 5 ablations I will continue to walk the tightrope. Having dealt with afib for such a large portion of my adult life I see zero reason to tempt fate.

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susan.d
So why does people need multiple ablations, if for example, a top tier ER goes back in and the PVI held—the wires were cut. If the wires were cut and the PVI held during mapping, how does one’s AF return because the LAA, CS, etc, suddenly start firing? The PVI would be the wall. How did the signals penetrate the barrier?

If not, there will be endless touch ups. You had 6. Many here 2-3.

They didn't penetrate the barrier. If AF arises from some other source after an ablation, that's because that other source wasn't detected and ablated during the index procedure. Everyone here should appreciate how capricious and seemingly random AF can be. Well, it can be the same way for the EP in a catherization lab. They try to provoke AF to see if another source is hiding somewhere, but sometimes it just can't be provoked.

Note that I carefully and repeatedly said "successful ablation." Having afib recur within the first 12 months isn't a successful ablation. If there's a second source of afib that wasn't detected in the index procedure, that's how AF returns and is the usual reason for a touch-up procedure. Only once ALL sources of AF are isolated and remain isolated for 12 months or more are the "wires cut." But once those wires are cut, they're cut for life and AF can never recur from the areas isolated. If AF recurs years later, it's because the disease has progressed and a new source of AF has appeared outside the areas isolated in the original procedure. A few people here have experienced that phenomenon. You can call it aging.

And to clarify, I have not had 6 touch ups. I've never had a touch up. What I had were five unsuccessful ablations (the first three due to incompetence, the fourth and fifth due to the mess created by the first three). Then I had one successful ablation that didn't require a touch-up. If you want to get into why ablations fail, we can do that but it's a thread all its own.

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Carey

And to clarify, I have not had 6 touch ups. I've never had a touch up. What I had were five unsuccessful ablations (the first three due to incompetence, the fourth and fifth due to the mess created by the first three). Then I had one successful ablation that didn't require a touch-up. If you want to get into why ablations fail, we can do that but it's a thread all its own.

Same here, I had 3 incompetent and downright negligent ( I was never even told I had a PLSVC, not sure they even paid attention as they never even targeted it which should have been done on 1st ablation) until after 2nd ablation. It became clear to me I was the first PLSVC this guy had ever ablated and this was a Senior guy at the largest university health system in Illinois (Chicago).

About the time he was thinking of 4th ablation, I told him thanks but no thanks, saw Dr. Natale. I learned at that point my PV's were not even isolated correctly, let alone my giant extra pipe PLSVC and CS. Natale handled it. I actually consider Natale my 1st ablation and only wish I had not wasted 3 years of my life in physical and mental agony before I saw him. It still makes my blood boil thinking about it.

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Carey
Yes, it's an interesting idea because it's exactly the whole idea of ablation. An ablation is like cutting the wires to a bomb. You can apply as much electricity as you want to one end of the wire but it will never detonate the bomb because the electricity can't get to the bomb. And that's exactly what happens in an ablation. If you put a mapping catheter into my pulmonary veins right now, I'm sure you'd see afib signals blazing away. Ditto with my LAA and my coronary sinus. But I don't care because it's physically impossible for those signals to go anywhere. I could run a marathon on a hot day without a drop of water, then go home and guzzle booze, drink a liter of black coffee, eat a huge block of dark chocolate, and have a nice big Chinese meal loaded with MSG -- and I would still remain in NSR.

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Carey
If AF recurs years later, it's because the disease has progressed and a new source of AF has appeared outside the areas isolated in the original procedure. A few people here have experienced that phenomenon. You can call it aging.

I’m happy for you Carey— however you wrote above how you can have all the triggers that usually would put you in AF- but your wires are cut and you are reassured you will remain in nsr
.
Perhaps aging can NOT guarantee nsr and at some point eating msg, booze, dehydration etc will trigger for you to get a relapse of AF. I hope not.

I’m writing this to prevent someone reading frustration because their ablation after 12 months didn’t hold. I asked why my af returned. I was told genetic disposition. By accident I ate a can of anchovies (high sodium) instead of sardines. I went into AF and truly blamed myself. I was told that others who are not genetic disposition to AF would not get AF from consuming a can of anchovies.

So even with a successful ablation, one is in a holding pattern of remission from af. IMHO.

You're completely confusing what I've said and comparing your short-term personal experiences measured in months to thousands of people's experiences measured in years.

All I've tried to say is that if you've had a successful ablation, the areas ablated will never again produce AF. It's that simple. I don't know why you feel compelled to paint a darker picture for people.

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Carey
You're completely confusing what I've said and comparing your short-term personal experiences measured in months to thousands of people's experiences measured in years.

All I've tried to say is that if you've had a successful ablation, the areas ablated will never again produce AF. It's that simple. I don't know why you feel compelled to paint a darker picture for people.

Remember, The Country is being told by Politicians we are facing a VERY DARK WINTER. Now I know they are talking about Covid but some individuals are easily persuaded by watching to much Media BS.
I have had 2 Ablations with Dr. Natale. I have been in NSR since July 2016. I consider my Ablations a success. Could I develop another “Electrical malfunction”? It’s possible but I do not want to live my life in fear of the possibilities of Life. I am not perfect but I do believe in a positive disposition.

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smackman

You're completely confusing what I've said and comparing your short-term personal experiences measured in months to thousands of people's experiences measured in years.

All I've tried to say is that if you've had a successful ablation, the areas ablated will never again produce AF. It's that simple. I don't know why you feel compelled to paint a darker picture for people.

Remember, The Country is being told by Politicians we are facing a VERY DARK WINTER. Now I know they are talking about Covid but some individuals are easily persuaded by watching to much Media BS.
I have had 2 Ablations with Dr. Natale. I have been in NSR since July 2016. I consider my Ablations a success. Could I develop another “Electrical malfunction”? It’s possible but I do not want to live my life in fear of the possibilities of Life. I am not perfect but I do believe in a positive disposition.

I personally don’t live my life in fear of AF. It’s not like cancer or something worst. I’ve accepted it and am grateful for any amount of time that I am in nsr. It’s a gift. However I am realistic that 2 ablations may not be enough. I’m hopeful it’s not the case. Maybe for others too because of the delicate thin LAA tissue (commonly done the second time), it’s not always possible to ablate the LAA as aggressively during the touchup. Another or possibly two additional LAA ablations may be be needed...so I have been told.

I live a life of transparency and I seldom use blanket statements because a cure can not always be 100% guaranteed and sometimes false hope bites deeper than accepting the fact that the odds are good but not always finitely possible and one then enjoys and appreciates the gift of life, good health even more without any lingering doubts because that person wasn’t sugarcoated. Someone recently posted she believes nsr is in remission after an ablation. I believe so too because nobody knows what cards they were dealt with.

Elaborating on Carey's "electrical wire" analogy. An ablation tries to cut all the wires the Dr. can find. Many times the Dr. doesn't find all the wires and a "touch up" is needed to discover what was missed. If the Dr. finds ALL the wires and cuts them all, then that is a successful ablation.

However, there is a chance that NEW wires can develop at some point and then afib returns. Then at some point, maybe years later, another ablation is needed. The trick is to find all the wires the first time, and even the best Electrophysiologist can miss a few.

If all your wires have been cut - Live life, have a good time and don't go nuts over triggers (if there really are any).

Well Ken, your explanation makes sense. Thank you. The trick is finding all the wires to be cut by a top tier EP to reassure success...because the EP can only cut the wires that are actively firing during the ablation mapping —or return for a touchup once other wires once on stealth mode during the index ablation begin firing in the future ..so how would one know they can run a marathon in a hot day without a drop of water to the other scenarios with confidence of staying in NSR without knowledge of all the wires were cut? There is no inventory list of wires.

Wait 12 months AF free? If there is a time frame of no firing of new wires that predicts true success, then that’s great. But folks write 13+ years passed and their AF returned so is 12 months the typical benchmark for a successful ablation or 13+ years later still part of the timeline curve??

I was simply confused and thank you Ken for your reply. I didn’t mean to stir the pot, but instead just get an answer. As I had mentioned I’m grateful for two wonderful ablations and enjoy my nsr.

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susan.d
Wait 12 months AF free? If there is a time frame of no firing of new wires that predicts true success, then that’s great. But folks write 13+ years passed and their AF returned so is 12 months the typical benchmark for a successful ablation or 13+ years later still part of the timeline curve??

The accepted criteria for a successful ablation is one year with no sustained tachy-arrhythmias without the aid of antiarrhythmic drugs. If you develop afib later, that's not a failure of the ablation. That's progression of the disease that has led to new sources appearing outside the ablated areas.

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Carey
The accepted criteria for a successful ablation is one year with no sustained tachy-arrhythmias without the aid of antiarrhythmic drugs. If you develop afib later, that's not a failure of the ablation. That's progression of the disease that has led to new sources appearing outside the ablated areas.

We are getting closer to an answer. Thanks Carey. I’m not pointing fingers or blame if AF returned less than one year post ablation. I’m so grateful that I woke up at 2:22am this morning with energy, turned on outdoor lights and hauled pavers...and with ease, and just came in (after a long break), until sunset...something I couldn’t have done pre ablation. I got my life back.

I’m very confident you had a successful ablation. I just wonder if your future aging and potential progression of the disease might hinder and affect you in the future from your exampled scenarios? Obviously not saying one should live in fear of cause and effect of these scenarios while living a full life...but instead weigh the benefits of remaining in nsr vs a thrill risk. Again everyone is different.

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susan.d
I’m very confident you had a successful ablation. I just wonder if your future aging and potential progression of the disease might hinder and affect you in the future from your exampled scenarios? Obviously not saying one should live in fear of cause and effect of these scenarios while living a full life...but instead weigh the benefits of remaining in nsr vs a thrill risk. Again everyone is different.

I don't understand your question. What is this thrill risk vs. NSR choice you think I'm making? Are you suggesting that having had an ablation makes me fragile somehow and I should "take it easy in my golden years?"

Carey said:

Note that I carefully and repeatedly said "successful ablation." Having afib recur within the first 12 months isn't a successful ablation. If there's a second source of afib that wasn't detected in the index procedure, that's how AF returns and is the usual reason for a touch-up procedure. Only once ALL sources of AF are isolated and remain isolated for 12 months or more are the "wires cut." But once those wires are cut, they're cut for life and AF can never recur from the areas isolated. If AF recurs years later, it's because the disease has progressed and a new source of AF has appeared outside the areas isolated in the original procedure. A few people here have experienced that phenomenon. You can call it aging.

I say:

I have had Parioxyamal AF for almost 20 years, in the beginning I got Afib a few times a year than the last few years i would get an episode every few months or a couple of times a month until now i am in Permanent AF, I ask you why did my Afib stop and not come back sometimes for months, no "wires" were cut. No EP can answer why would AF stop and not come back for weeks or months. Slash and Burn isn't the only answer where is the stats on helping or perhaps curing AF without ablations. If Afib can stop for weeks or months then why is that possible.

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Elizabeth
I got Afib a few times a year than the last few years i would get an episode every few months or a couple of times a month until now i am in Permanent AF, I ask you why did my Afib stop and not come back sometimes for months, no "wires" were cut. No EP can answer why would AF stop and not come back for weeks or months. Slash and Burn isn't the only answer where is the stats on helping or perhaps curing AF without ablations. If Afib can stop for weeks or months then why is that possible.

If you can figure that out. You and everyone you know and like could probably retire quite comfortably.🙂



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2020 06:41PM by rocketritch.

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Elizabeth
Slash and Burn isn't the only answer where is the stats on helping or perhaps curing AF without ablations. If Afib can stop for weeks or months then why is that possible.

There are no known cures for AF other than ablation and Maze procedures. I know it seems like there ought to be but there just aren't.

Like Ritch said, if you find the explanation there's a Nobel Prize waiting for you.