Recent EP visit - 13yrs AF free by natural means

I first posted on afibbers.org in early 2003. For what its worth this is my complete history.

LAF History

I am a 61 year old Australian male. I have now been afib free for 13 years.

First trip to the ER was in 1996 with SVT. Ectopic beats gradually increased after that (didn't know what they were back then). First AF attack in 1999 that lasted for 18hours. Called an ambulance and they took me to ER and cardioverted with medication. Had several more AF attacks with one trip to ER and many mini afibs lasting to about 2 minutes. All attacks were after meals. I found I could stop an AF attack by standing to attention like a soldier for a few minutes and heart would go back to normal.

In 2002 my GP had a suspicion the LAF was coming from my stomach and sent me to a gastroenterologist for tests. Diagnosed with loose LES, reflux and suspect esophagus motility problems. Looks like we found the smoking gun. Put on omeprazole (LOSEC) for reflux and stayed on it until 2009.

Last AF attack and visit to hospital was in early 2003. Kept me in the cardio ward and did tests for four days. After that I went to EP and he did an EP catheter study and possible ablation in July 2003 but EP didn't go ahead with ablation. When EP: started pacing I went straight into afib that lasted the whole of the operation and was cardioverted back to sinus rhythm at the end of it. As I had low level LAF he thought medication would be a better option at that time. As it turned out I never went on afib medication.

In early 2005 that wonderful Jackie person was researching nattokinase supplements. I was more intrigued by the natto food than the nattokinase supplement. Natto is a Japanese fermented soya bean food. At the time I was working in an area with a high Asian population so had no problems sourcing natto food.

When I'm refering to natto it is the actual food and NOT the nattokinase supplement.

In early 2004 I started eating 50g natto every second day. With a lot of will power and determination (natto is positively disgusting) I have continued eating it every second day to the present time . In hindsight I should have eased myself into eating natto as for the first six months I had mood swings, sleepless nights and increased urination. Natto is a very hormonal and complex food.

After the first six months the PAC's and PVC's subsided to tollerable levels and continued to drop to normal after that. I never had an AF attack again.

Of greater interest is the fact that I have not been sick since starting natto.Like all of you I used to have the usual colds, sore throats, bronchitis, flue etc. but no sickness since eating natto in 2005. I think natto up regulates the immune system somehow.

Recent visit to my EP

In January this year I stopped eating natto for about two months. I think I was suffering from “natto fatigue”. My blood pressure started to rise to mild hypertension (natto lowers blood pressure). Because of my LAF history my GP wanted my heart checked out again so I went for blood tests, ECG and 24Hr holter monitor. He also sent me back to my EP.

At my EP visit in June he asked me about my level of AF attacks. I told him I had no attacks since I saw him in 2003. I don't think he believed me. I told him I am hypersensitive to every ectopic beat so I know if I'm in afib or not plus I have a blood pressure monitor. Then I told him about the natto story and he replied “I can't comment on that”. He then wanted an echocardiogram of my heart done.

Last month I returned to my EP for the results. This time I took a container of natto to show him. Out of sheer coincidence he had just seen a TV a documentary showing natto and how it is produced and fermented with bacteria. He totally changed his tune to natto. He took the natto sample and smelled and played with it. I asked him if the natto had stopped my LAF and he said “it probably has”. He then said “we should be looking more into these sorts of things”.

Anyway, my blood tests were all normal. The ECG indicated First degree AV block (makes you susceptible to AF). The 24hr Holter monitor was normal. No cardiac symptoms reported. Five PVC's and 7 PAC's over a 24hr period. EP said there was a slight enlargement of the left atrium but overall my heart was normal.

EP put me on Calcium channel blocker and diuretic to lower my blood pressure. I drink rather too much beer and red wine so if I cut it down EP said blood pressure should lower.

My blood pressure is now normal and I continue to eat 50g of natto every second day.

All about natto

Natto comes with a warning! Do not eat it if you are undergoing anticoagulation therapy. It interferes with Coumadin etc. and may interfere with other medications.

This is about the best overall description of natto and what it does:

[sites.google.com]

Over the years I have been researching natto and trying to understand which ingredients of the natto has stopped my AF. I have come to the conclusion that all ingredients of the natto are involved and there is no one particular standout. It is the perfect food for afibbers.

Some of the ingredients in natto and influence on AF:

Bascillus Subtilus
The bacteria that is used to ferment the soy beans. I'm no fan of Dr Mercola but this was on his website the other week concerning spore based probiotics like Bascillus Subtilus and its effect on the immune system:

[articles.mercola.com]

Genistein
Very interesting. Research has been done on the phytoestrogen Genistein as a possible anti arrthymic drug. It alters the ion channels in the heart myocytes and the way they signal to each other.

[www.raysahelian.com]

Vitamin K2
Natto has the heighest vitamin K2 content of any food.

Antibiotics
Natto has at least three unusual antibiotics.

Conclusion

Over the years I have tried to get other afibbers on this website to try natto seriously but none have. It would have been great for another afibber to eat natto every second day so we could compare results. Very disappointing.

Dean

Good news story! Where in Australia are you? I'm in Melbourne. Have eaten natto but there are a few varieties in different colour packaging - what type are you eating

Hello Dean!

So good learn you are still doing so well. That's just great. Natural success is always the best possible solution but unfortunately, is often very elusive for many. I certainly would have joined you with the natto food but my sensitivities didn't allow soy consumption. Fortunately, am able to tolerate the MK7 K2 in the microgram doses recommended and positive news about that important nutrients keeps coming forth.

Long may your success continue.

Best to you,
Jackie

Hi Dean,

I was going to try natto but didn't like the "natto is positively disgusting" part.
What I am trying is kefir which is much nicer to take and my results have been No Afib for three months, which is a world record for me.
it's still early days but I have my fingers crossed it will help me similar to how natto has helped you.

Colin

Dean:

You said that Natto is very hormonal, is the supplement Mk7 K2 also? That would explain why I cannot take any nattokinase supplement, it will give me aura migraines. I was using a natural hormone cream given to me by my Holistic doctor for a few years without too much problems with the aura Migraines but then I started getting them more often, I also was taking the supplement MK7 K2 at the time, but I attributed it more to the hormone cream and stopped it. They stopped for a while then again I started getting them, I didn't realize that MK7 might also be hormonal, I quite using it a few weeks ago and I havn't gotten any aura migraines since. I am going more and more to "let food be your medicine".

Liz

Many thanks Dean for updating your long term story with Natto that many of us old-timers recall well following in real-time and adding all the more value from or sharing your anecdortal discovery profess with Natto so many years ago!

When I still lived in Hawaii ... and this was in the relatively early years of this website and forum when you were posting your initial good results with Natto ... I too was eating fresh Natto daily. A process that was made easy with our rich supply of Natto in Hawaii with it's large population of folks with Japanese ancestry. I may well have benefited Nattyo consumption, but I had previously already been taking Nattokinase as well as being a dedicated consumer of what became the Strategy Protocal, plus was easly good oragnic food for three decades prior.

And during the five years starting shortly after discovering this website in late 2002, I had reduced my perviously very active PAF to just a few short episodes a year before even starting to add regular servings of real Natto to my almost daily diet. BUt whatever teh contributions may have been I was in the midst of enjoying al almost 5 year run of relative freedom from the beast that lasted up until late 2007. I was 100% cocky sure during this period that I had this AFIB thing licked at that time.

During that time the supplement that had the most direct 'trial and adjust' impact on my AFIB was insuring magnesium/potassium repletion.

I moved to Amsterdam Netherlands two years after adding in regular Natto to my diet and one of the very first things I did when getting oriented in Amsterdam was to find a reliable source of Natto there and I was able to find two good sources at the time one an Asian market and the other a Japanese restaurant that featured Natto dishes on their menu, and I would buy fresh batches for my fridge from both sources.

Alas, mid-way through my four years in Amsterdam, my five year almost total reprieve from the Beast came to a crashing halt over a 5 month period when a vicious blend of AFIB/ Aflutter came roaring back with a vengeance complete with increasingly longer and more violent episodes until finally it all merged with the help of a crescendo-like PIP Flecanide-induced pro-arrhythmic episode of 1 to 1 flutter in a local Dutch ER, and from there straight into full blown highly-symptomatic persistent AFIB.

No amount of magnesium, potassium, nattto nor renouncing all three ... and one at a time very systematically in an effort to see if, somehow, I was taking too much of one or more of these formally beneficial supplements was the cause of why I had lost my prior control over my heart rhythm again? In hindsight it obviously wasn't due to any of those things in my case of one.

However, what was abundantly clear by that summer was that I definitely now needed the one thing I had previously vowed to avoid at all cost .. an expert ablation process.

Not withstanding my experience, I highly endorse afibber's adopting and giving dedicated effort to, not only the Strategy and other risk factor management effort, but also to give regular Natto a solid try as as well (alert it is an acquired taste for most westerners but you will adapt, and even come to enjoy it with a little effort). Real Natto is a powerful food with a host of nutrients that, as you said, can have significant impact on boosting hormonal function from the literature available on Natto.

Keep in mind too, that I have a very strong familial history of genetic AFIB with my father who died of an AFIB related stroke at age 69, plus my nine year older sister has been disabled from a persistent AFIB-related stroke for the last 7.5 years not able to get out of bed for one moment on her own power these past 7 plus years! So, the odds are very high that I truly had only one real way out of this mess via the best ablationist I could possibly align with.

Nevertheless, I have also seen first hand in my own life and that of following so many other Afibbers so closely for so long, that including a life-long dedication to sustaining healthy eating habits, proper exercise and stress reduction as well as minimizing CVD risk factors and insuring on-going repletion of all the heart calming electrolytes can certainly help improve overall health and can help make for an overall more quiet and easy going heart, for the most part at least, both before and after a successful ablation process.

And during the early period when Dean was discovering his golden key in Natto, we also heard often from the other 'Natto man' here .... If I recall correctly he was a gentleman from Colorado (cant recall his name but Jackie, Peggy. Liz or George may know?) who had extreme CVD having had more than one mutli-coronary artery CABG operation.

In spite of his CABG surgery, his coronary arteries proceeded to plug right up and he could hardly climb one flight of stairs. Assuming my recall is correct His cardiac-surgeon had told him that he should get all his affairs in order as there was nothing more the Cardiac surgeon could offer him since all of the veins in his leg and elsewhere that could be used for yet another multi-vessel CAGB surgery, had already been used up!

This man facing what sounded like a eminent death sentence, then discovered Natto and recounts an almost miraculous recovery from his arteriosclerosis and CVD such that he regained much of his functional status and, to the best of my aging recollection, was living and enjoying life to the fullest the last time we heard from him on the forum ... Jackie, George, Peggy, Liz or Dean??? Can any of you recall the man I am speaking of? Or could he have been from a different CVD-related forum that we discovered during or collective investigation on Natto in the misty past?

In any event, many thanks for your thorough update Dean it is most appreciated and sure to be of interest to a lot of folks.

Shannon

A humorous account of eating natto

[www.thesneeze.com]

Shannon,

Can't recall the person you are speaking of.

Dean,

Great to hear from you!! I do recall your story in real time from the beginning.

I tried natto for a time, but after 9-12 months determined that the soy wasn't for me (when certain digestive issues cleared up after traveling without a natto supply). Magnesium was my ticket to remission and remains so to this day.

George

Thanks all for the uplifting comments!

Joe
I'm at Forster NSW. If you can get the fresh natto that's the best. The best frozen natto is the organic one in the green packaging but all the others are OK.

Jackie
If it wasn't for your research highlighting natto I would probably be lined up for my 2nd or 3rd ablation like most here.

Colin
Never tried Kefir but seem's to be working for you so stick with it.. All these fermented things are really interesting.

Elizabeth
Natto is hormonal but don't now about the Mk7 K2. being hormonal. Maybe Jackie can expand?

Shannon
Never knew you were so into natto? Good to see it has helped but if there's a large genetic portion to afib then whatever we try were basically stuffed anyway?

I can't remember that guy from Colorado but would be extremely interested if somebody (the afibbers “librarian” PeggyM) could find his posts. I always thought the biggest action of natto was on calcium in the heart. It can banish it and atherosclerosis from our arteries and direct it to our bones. This Colorado guy on the brink of death seem's to have proved that beyond doubt.

Would be very interesting to see calcium MRI scans of afibbers hearts. Have any of you had it done? Do we have more calcium in out hearts that normal hearts? I might see if I can have one done for interest sake after 13yrs of natto but might cost me.

Dean

Dean and George,

I think that guy from Denver so many years ago had to have been from a different forum I had found in my own research into Natto back
then over the years my memory must have blended him into our group :-).

It was an impressive story and the guy had written a good number of posts on the topic and I do recall my own interest was sparked by your discussion of natto Dean and that of others here back in the day.

Cheers!
Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2017 12:24PM by Shannon.

Hi Dean - I spent some time looking for K2 – MK7 and hormonal connections. I found these referenced studies…
And one informal website emphasizing the potential for MK4, which is short acting, to increase testosterone levels in males. In all my research, it’s never been a ‘standout’ alert that there were negative hormonal effects.

• Shirakawa, H et al. Vitamin K deficiency reduces testosterone production in the testis through down-regulation of the Cyp11a a cholesterol side chain cleavage enzyme in rats. Bioch Bio Acta. 2006; 1760(10): 1482-1488
• Asagi, I et al. Menaquinone-4 enhances testosterone production in rats and testis-derived tumor cells. Lipids in Health and Disease. 2011; 10: 158
• Takumi, N et al. Dietary vitamin K alleviates the reduction in testosterone production induced by lipopolysaccharide administration in rat testis. Food Funct. 2011; 2(7): 406-11

And this site lists similar testosterone production and gives reference links as well.
[www.anabolicmen.com]

Besides the testosterone benefit… there is an abundance of support confirming that K2 MK7 helps reduce aortic calcifications for everyone taking it. So, glad you are protected there as well since (with time), the adverse calcifications can affect everyone ....some, sooner than later.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Again, so glad you are well and AF free.
Best to you,
Jackie

Vitamin D is solid doses can boost testosterone levels too Jackie ... not surprising with K2-MK7 and Vitamin D sharing common synergistic traits and both being important fat soluable nutrients.

Shannon

Yes, Shannon - that's true... I was looking for the soy connection in the MK7 regarding Liz's comments. Definitely, Vitamin D in high enough doses as a hormone has many benefits.

J

I have been reading that some people have had some side effects from MK7 M2. Some have said they had symptoms of restlessness, inability to sleep and a thumping heart beat. MK7 has natto in it, MK7 has a residence 1/2 life in the body of 3.5 days. I blamed my getting aura Migraines to many other things yet i usually took the MK7 which I now believe was my culprit, I guess time will tell. Not too many foods have vit K, greens do, hard to eat them everyday, I am going to see my Holistic doc. next month will run it by him, he does carry vitamins and i had asked him about MK7, he said he hasn't found a good one.

Liz

Liz - I searched to see if all MK7 is soy-derived. Apparently, not. MenaQ7 is offered in soy free as well as
MenaQ7 Natto.... as well as a synthetic version.....so that's good news for those who need to avoid soy.

MenaQ7® is the Optimal Vitamin K2

MenaQ7® is the only clinically validated, patented Vitamin K2 as MK-7 available on the market today. Meeting the demands of an increasingly growing global market for health solution products, MenaQ7® varieties are suitable for vegans and vegetarians, free from gluten, dairy, soy, and other known allergens.

Since MenaQ7® was first introduced, novel technologies have been pioneered to expand the product portfolio. Today, the MenaQ7® product range caters to a growing global demand of high-purity, stable, and well-researched Vitamin K2 as MK-7, and is offered as a naturally fermented ingredients from chickpeas (MenaQ7® Natural MK-7), soy proteins (MenaQ7® Natto MK-7), or a nature-identical synthetic ingredient (MenaQ7® PharmaPure MK-7), in multiple dilutions and solubilities. [menaq7.com]

Links about the development of the soy-free MenaQ7.
[www.nutraceuticalbusinessreview.com]
[www.nattopharma.com]

[menaq7.com]

Good news for those soy sensitive.

Jackie

Jackie:

Hey thanks for your find---I just ordered the K2 from fermented chickpeas, I-Herb has it. I like chickpeas, I will tell Dr. Brownstein about this, I will be seeing him in about 3 weeks.

Liz

Here's an important summary report about the importance of Vitamin K2 MK7 and reversing vascular calcifications and arterial stiffness complete with references.

[www.lifeextension.com]

Jackie

Jackie:

I understand that Vit K2 MK7 is important, I took it for quite a while but those Aura Migraines are no fun. I hope the K2 from chickpeas will be just as good as the supplement from Natto.

Liz

Would a natto supplement (like the powder from bulk supplements) do the same? I have a pack at home

Roel,

I know there is dried natto and I believe it is standard rations for Japanese Commando's. I have never tried it though. Don't know if it would be the same as fresh or frozen natto.
Give it a try?

Dean

Dean, yes that sounds of interest. I have this one at home; [www.bulksupplements.com]

(admins; if for some reason linking to products is now allowed please feel free to delete the link or even my whole post. It is not my intention to advertise or spam, only to get Dean's thoughts on this particular Natto supplement.)

A few websites list Natto as a blood thinner and that it has possible interactions with blood thinners. May be something to be careful with.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/2017 04:10PM by Roel.

Here is a search on what Dean has written over the years on Natto <[www.afibbers.org]

This is a link to his early experience: <[www.afibbers.org]

At one time, Dean posted a link as to how the bacteria used to culture natto was used by the Germans In N Africa in WWII to cure dysentery - they noticed the natives eating fresh camel dung when they were sick and it cured them. Their scientists then figured out it was Bacillus subtilis, and how to culture and dry it so the soldiers could take it in a pill instead... <[m.warhistoryonline.com]

Thanks heaps for that George!

I had a computer "malfunction" a while back and thought I lost all that info. Haven't got my head around this newly designed afibbers website yet to find it all but you have done an excellent job.

Cheers mate,
Dean

Dean,

The key is to go to Advanced Search (below search) <[www.afibbers.org]

Then make sure you choose "All Dates" plus whatever else you are looking for.

Cheers,

George

Dean,

Do you mean a CT Scan? I had one last year and had neglibile plaque. My heart doctor almost fell off his chair and I have high cholesterol and he's always trying to get me on statins.