QuoteJoe FWIW, i find your experience/experimenting very interesting! It doesn't mean i'll copy everything or anything you do. Instinctively i feel that going into low keton keto metabolism for a short time (days or a few weeks) is beneficial on many levels. Your feats need quite some training i suspect. Joe, I'm firmly convinced that hyperinsulinemia is a root cause of mby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Well, you could just try the sodium and see what happens. The advice comes from Phinney & Volek < It may take care of it. I'd start with a couple of grams of salt and work up to what you need.by GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Quotemwcf George, you mean you sometimes/regularly fast for FIVE DAYS IN A ROW?? Does your extraordinary will power know no bounds??!! On a more serious note, could anyone do that safely if they wanted to, or would one have to 'train' up to it - including keto-only diet? I think I'm doing well 'fasting' from 7pm until midday the following day! At present I have 2 mealsby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Quotejennifer92151 George, do you mean 5 grams of sodium per day, or 5 mg? That sounds like a huge amount. Yes, 5 g/day. I was at a conference in August where Steve Phinney MD PhD < (who has been researching low carb diets since ~1980) specifically said this. He's also said it previously. I'm sure it is individual. I don't measure, but I do make sure I liberally salt everythiby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
QuoteStarwarsfan Are you guys aware that there is a study that links levels of vitamin D greater than 100 with atrial fibrillation? Let me see if I can find it and I'll try and post the link... I can say that for certain it doesn't work that way in me. QuoteStarwarsfan And George, do you take in much dietary calcium? and while we're on it what are your potassium intake fromby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Liz, On my low carb, ketogenic, fasting program. I make it a point to consume a lot of salt. When insulin is low, as it is on my program most of the time, the low insulin signals the kidney to dump a lot of sodium. At a conference I attended last weekend, Steven Phinney MD presented data that lowest mortality in a large study was 5 g/day of sodium (not NaCl alone). Higher mortality with lby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
In this post: < , Lynda asked me to explain my caveat about keto diets for afibbers. For those who aren’t familiar. Here is a description of keto diets. This is by a type 1 diabetic, who is an MD and uses a keto diet to manage his diabetes: < It has to do with electrolyte shifts that occur when someone transitions into a ketogenic state. This is a low insulin state. When insulinby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Colin, The only thing I can think is that perhaps you are cycling in and out of ketosis and experiencing an electrolyte shift because of this cycling. Phinney and Volek < # suggest supplementing with magnesium, potassium and sodium (I'm away from home & don't have the sodium amount, I remember 5g/day). I've not experienced this. I've eaten on a 22:2 (22 hours faby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Another thought. For afibbers, there is a risk of an electrolyte shift if they go keto - mostly during the several week conversion from a carb diet to a VLC (very low carb) one. This is because insulin signals the kidneys to either conserve (high insulin levels) or excrete (low insulin levels) sodium. When you go very low carb, adequate protein (protein in excess can also stimulate insulin), iby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Ron, According to Dr. Moore in his High Blood Pressure Solution book < , a potassium/sodium ratio of 4:1 or greater on intake will signal the kidney to excrete sodium. Moore also notes that increased levels of insulin (usually from a high carb diet) will signal the kidney to conserve sodium. Conversely a very low carb (VLC) diet will create low insulin levels that signal the kidney to excby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Lynda, I've been keto-adapted and eaten a very low carb/high fat diet for 6 ish years. I may be the source of the 60 g/day comment. When dropping into "ketoland" - less than 60g carbs/day - at least during adaptation - electrolyte issues are reported. Some afibbers have noted this throws them into afib. The issue is that at this level, insulin levels drop to the pointby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hi Shannon, 4 tsp is a good place to start. Reading through the link I posted above (including comments) <, people range from a tsp or two up to 8 tablespoons. Starting small is a good idea. Also, people are experimenting with consuming various probiotic formulas at the same time - give the bugs something to eat and also add some more "good" bugs at the same time. Three mentioby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Over the 9+ years I've been paying attention here, a number of lone afibbers have reported putting their afib in remission by fixing their acid reflux. Some used PPI meds (proton pump inhibitors) to lower acid, the "natural" approach suggests taking HCl with meals to increase acid (the theory being the person doesn't have enough acid and therefor the food backs up in the stoby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
John, I personally only have low blood sugar issues at night when I deviate from my HFLC diet and eat too many carbs in the evening. Otherwise, in the keto-adapted state, I never have low blood sugar and can fast for a day or two without any pain or suffering. In your shoes I'd probably try the 2g/day of salt they suggest (if what you're doing isn't working, try something dby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hi Jackie, Moore doesn't say no salt, but on p 240 of his book, he says he thinks there is evidence that 2,300 mg/day is too much and then goes on to quote some diets with 50-300 mg/day and implies that 100-300 would be just fine. The point here is that these low levels may not work well for someone in ketosis. Especially someone who is also an athlete. On most days, I probably get 1,00by GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
John, If you have the resources, a Cardymeter might be a very good tool to watch your sodium level. I'm guessing you won't have a problem at 100g/day. Most of the sources I've read say you need to be under 50g or at most 60g/day for ketosis to happen. The issue is insulin. You won't get your insulin low enough if you aren't at these levels. The low carb guby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Barb, I've been doing this for around 5 years. As a vegan, I was very active and fit - I used to run a 13 mile race that started at 6,200' and topped out around 14,200'. However I carried the excess weight from playing American football in college. When I started this low carb high fat diet, I dropped about 35 pounds, to about what I am today 6' 0" 175#'s, a Bby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
John, Here is one resource: < Dr. Attia has formed a non-profit to answer many of the questions associated with the standard dietary advice. I believe he said he's raised $40 mil and is trying to raise $150 mil for this venture. There is alot of info on his blog and in his video interviews. It is an excellent resource. There are other docs who've investigated this. Most doby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Jackie, I was referring to: "Extra potassium in the diet causes increased excretion of sodium by the kidney, (25) which in turn leads to a decrease in the amount of sodium in the body and might decrease the release of natriuretic hormone from the brain." (Chapter 15, p269 1993 edition of Moore's The High Blood Solution) and "The work of Dr. Crabbe's group (11)by GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Nancy, First, let me address your fasting blood sugar. Your fasting blood sugar can be fairly high and you could still have had a drop during the night. There is a phenomena known as the "dawn effect." Early in the morning, say 4 or 5 AM, your liver starts producing glycogen (glucose) to get your body ready for the day. Your fasting blood sugar is indicative as to how well yourby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Liz, I'm certain those guys don't eat my diet - hardly anybody does. My point is that I get much better athletic performance that would normally be expected for the amount of training I do. I credit the diet for that. Years ago, I recall they tested SF troops on a low carb diet, but they only switched them over for 3 days or so. Not long enough to adapt. The results were negatby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Tom, I recommend "The High Blood Pressure Solution" by Richard Moore (1). The 1 minute summary: If you get your K+/Na+ intake ratio above 4, it signals the kidneys to excrete sodium and will normalize blood pressure. Moore also mentions that higher insulin levels will signal the kidneys to conserve sodium. However he does not follow this up with the logical recommendation to reduby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Craig, Dr. Moore's 4:1 K:Na ratio has the effect on the kidney of causing it to excrete sodium. So does low insulin levels, which are the expected result of a low carb diet. Now it depends on how low is low. Phinney suggests supplementing with sodium any time carb intake is 60g/day or less. See: <; My own opinion is that the 4:1 ratio may be less important if insulin levels are lowby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
E.B. I still vote for sodium depletion. From p22, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable", Stephen D. Phinney, Jeff S. Volek: "The body's metabolism of salt is uniquely different when one is adapted to a low carbohydrate diet. Salt and water are more efficiby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
E. B. A couple of thoughts. One, is Phinney's suggestion to supplement with sodium. He says any time under 60 g carb day. My experience is the induction/ketoadaptation phase is most important to keep you from feeling bad. Here is what I posted before from <;: Phinney says "In addition, mindful that the natriuresis of fasting could reduce circulating blood volume and cause secoby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
High insulin levels cause the kidney to retain sodium. A 4:1 K:Na ratio as Moore suggests will help reverse this. So will low insulin levels. Certain high intensity interval training (HIIT) exercises can help lower insulin levels. A low carbohydrate diet can also. IF your insulin levels happen to be low (naturally or because of the diet or exercise protocol you follow), you may be excretinby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Erling, The Goldilocks answer seems to pervade the article: "This is challenging the concept that lower is better," he said. "What this is reaffirming is that there's an optimal level, and if you go above it, it's bad. If you go below it, it may not be better and it may even be bad."' In my low carb research, and reading Dr. Moore's "High Blood Preby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Jackie, I think you slipped a decimal on the WHO requirements. 0.03 grams/kg/day x 150 pounds/2.2 kg/pound = 2 grams/day. In low carb diets, protein requirements are higher as protein is used by the body to create glucose to feed the brain. 0.8 (Rosedale "The Rosedale Diet")-1.25 (Phinney in the latest Atkins and "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guideby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Barb, This is a significant point. I will take the liberty to repost your comment in the CR and answer it in detail later. The short answer, is that Volek and Phinney address this in their book, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living". They supplement with up to 5 grams/day sodium, which oddly enough, conserves potassium, too. Georgeby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
William, I'm sure you've read all this, but you may be interested: Also, you may wish to comment in the current CR on ketosis: Georgeby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM