Dnrec, I had afib for 11 years, the first five undiagnosed. Then finally it was caught and I went on meds, started with Flecainide, but went off it shortly and then tried Norpace. I don't remember why I switched to Norpace (11 years ago), but I had no problem after switching. However, I did average 30+ episodes a year for the next five years until I had a successful ablation.by Ken - AFIBBERS FORUM
Just curious if you have ruled out ablation, if the taurine doesn't help (it didn't with me).by afhound99 - AFIBBERS FORUM
I am currently 54 years old. I had my first afib in1999. Periodic episodes treated with pill-in-pocket propafenone until 2009 when attacks became daily. Always occuring about 10 pm. Cardiologist put me on 150 mg of flecainide twice daily but still had weekly episodes. Always at night and terminated when I woke up in the morning. Now episodes are daily and lasting 12-14 hours. The doctor haby dnrec - AFIBBERS FORUM
Tom, I have to agree with Shannon that he was right in dismissing his cardiologist when he found out that he did not know the difference between vagal and adrenergic afib. I dismissed one of my early cardiologists when he suggested that I have an AV node ablation and pacemaker. As you point out knowing whether you are vagal or adrenergic is important in designing your trigger avoidance proby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
p4: "Sharifov et al. showed that catecholamine can induce AF (about 20% of the time) in open chest dogs, and atropine completely prevents catecholamine-mediated AF, indicating an important role of cholinergic tone in these AF episodes. " p6: "The patient was treated successfully with disopyramide, which has anticholinergic properties." The paper is shot through with rby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Erling, Actually the idea of neutralizing the Waller water (WW) was investigated and promoted by Patrick Chambers, MD. Please bear in mind that at the time by far the main benefit of WW was thought to be its ability to provide highly bioavailable magnesium. Here is PC’s reply to an enquiry by Jackie on the subject (October 7, 2003) Jackie, For those new to ww and why we're a littlby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Peggy and George, Here is a review of the Guidelines (from the December 2010/January 2011 issue of The AFIB Report) "European Guidelines for the Management of Atrial Fibrillation The European Society of Cardiology (ESC) and the European Heart Rhythm Association (EHRA) have just released their very extensive (60 pages with 200 references) 2010 guidelines for the management of atrial fibrillatioby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Ron, Though a med, if the non-med approach doesn't work, you might consider a vagolytic agent (eg, propantheline bromide, urecholine, tincture of belladonna). James A Reiffel MD in a paper entitled Have Sanctioned Algorithms Replaced Empiric Judgment in the Selection Process of Antiarrhythmic Drugs for the Therapy for Atrial Fibrillation? Wrote: There are some forms of paroxysmal AF that doby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
I have been on a 50 mg flecanide & 25 mg Atenolol prescription per day since April (6 months) .I actually take only 50 mg Flec once per day & about 12 mg Atenolol ( as the Atenolol has a very strong effect on lowering my heart rate & blood pressure). I get breakthroughs of somerthing like A- Fib or flutter every couple of weeks , but it is not symptomatic , I recognize it from being aby IanG - AFIBBERS FORUM
Some references discovered by a PB correspondent: Erling, this first paper goes into the Cholinergic stimulation and ERP relationship in depth. Vagal Atrial Fibrillation Yung-Hsin Yeh,1,2,4 Kristina Lemola1,2 and Stanley Nattel1,2,3 Acta Cardiol Sin 2007;23:1-12 "The autonomic nerve system plays an important role in atrial fibrillation (AF). Vagal AF refers AF (generally paroxysmal) arisby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Erling, I would agree this is an avenue that should be pursued. Additionally I would suggest that afibbers try the 12 Step Plan prior to initiating Propantheline Bromide (P. I would modify step 2 to include a 4:1 K:Na ratio. I would suggest a PB approach after step 9 for vagal afibbers. From what I can see, most problems with PB come from too large a dose. However, even a little may haveby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
I was reading in one of the proceedings and came across this information. In patients with no or minimal heart disease, beta-blockers represent a logical first attempt to prevent recurrent AF when the arrhythmia is clearly related to mental or physical stress (adrenergic AF). Since beta-blockers are not very effective in many other patients with lone AF, flecainide, propafenone, sotalol, or drby JackC - AFIBBERS FORUM
I started taking low dose Disopyramide ( Rhythmodan 100 mg twic daily ) this morning . It was a toss up between this & Flecanamide. I chose Disopyramide because I would have to take a beta blocker with the Flec , and I think the anti cholinergic properies of disopyramide might fix my problem Also got a referal to an E.P. (Dr SAP) in Halifax whic hwill be a couple months from now. Will see hoby Ian G - AFIBBERS FORUM
Dear Forum, A belated Happy New Year to you all. I was interested to see on this same page Bill's story about his AF returning after 6 years. After 5 years free myself (2 of those free of any meds), my AF visitor returned the other day after I had a bout of food poisoning (which has turned me off sushi for life!). I spent a day curled up under the covers sweating, and must have been so ill tby Michael Goldberg - AFIBBERS FORUM
Re safety and efficacy of Norpace, I haven't been able to find out much and about have not heard of its being used as much as other AR medications. Perhaps Hans or researcher could tell us why this is? It appears that it was far down on the list of those considered for your situation: <; I would also be concerned about EF and heart function. You might check with whomever you consult asby DickI - AFIBBERS FORUM
Mike, The whole concept of vagolytic meds seems to be an underexplored area. PC used disopyramide, however it has the same risk as some other anti-arrhythmic drugs (AAD)- namely torsades de pointes. I posted about Propantheline Bromide to Jill here: <; and in the same thread here: <; In my post to Jill, I reference the AERP relationship. We are obviously trying to lengthen it withby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
OK; so we all know that this is the illustrious ***********'s personal pet project, but despite the fact that he has obviously got peoples' backs up here on this forum for other reasons, isn't the option of trying to reduce STRONGLY-VAGALLY-mediated LAF episodes with PB not worthy of more detailed discussion here on this forum?? My own AF episodes are DEFINITELY vagal and, as such,by Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
Jill, Unfortunately clicking on your name does not give an address. Mine will show. Cyndie & Louise, your emails came through. I plan to do a much longer post on the vagolytic med approach to dealing with vagal afib. It will take me a while to accomplish this because I have my business, family and a demented mother as other demands on my time. In the interest of giving you somethingby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hello Gunnar, I am sorry to hear about your acute heart failure. It must have been a pretty horific experience. I now understand better your preference for sotalol which, together with amiodarone and dofetilide would be the only antiarrhythmics suitable in your case as you obviously have underlying heart disease, ie. not LONE afib. Nevertheless, flecainide, propafenone and disopyramide are stby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Jill, Sotalol is not generally recommended for lone afibbers, especially not if they have the vagal variety. Flecainide, propafenone (Class 1C) and disopyramide (Class 1A) are much better choices. However, cardiologists unfortunately, seem to prescribe sotalol a lot. I believe this is because most of the patients they see with afib also has underlying heart disease and for them Class 1C drugsby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Dirk, For what it is worth, here are my thoughts. (1) I experienced lots of episodes when I came to rest in bed after a strenous day. That is, I lay down in bed for sleep and while calming down I turn into LAF. Vagal (2) Same question as above regarding LAF after coughing. Is coughing a vagal or a sympathetic stimulus? Vagal <> "VNS may also be achieved by one of the vagal maneuvers: hby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Sean, I presume that exercise does not bring on the afib - perhaps only in the aftermath of exercise - therefore you are vagal. Just a guess given your level of activity. See <; See this post regarding: ERP shortening due to (P cells + low potassium + ANS tone) => AF Risk <; The shortening can occur with both directions of ANS tone - vagal or adrenergic. Most "active"by GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Tom, An inexpensive ECG finger monitor might give useful info here discriminating between afib & flutter. An example I know nothing about beyond what you see here is Here is an iPhone product As to being vagal, see this post: <; with regard to Propantheline Bromide. Other vagolytic agents other than propantheline bromide include urecholine, tincture of belladonna. Also the anti-arrby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Curt, In this post, <;, the ERP relationship is detailed- ERP shortening due to (P cells + low potassium + ANS tone) => AF Risk I've dealt mostly with the electrolyte part of this equation. As noted in my referenced post, Arthur Gibson deals with the ANS tone part with a novel (to me) approach of Propantheline Bromide. Looking through this search for his posts on the topic may beby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Larry, Sorry to hear about your setback. Hope it resolves on its own once you get the inflammation under control. If not then flecainide or disopyramide either PIP or full time would probably be your best bet. I seem to recall that you live in Hawaii. If that is indeed so then you may wish to consider Dr. Robert Hong in Honolulu (808-526-1370). I don't know him personally, but have heaby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Jackie, Sorry to you had this hiccup in your road to continuous NSR! Gregg, "To show the accuracy of the statement of stunned heart I ad an echo post conversion and had a low EF despite being a distance runner with great cardio efficiency." Question - how long was the AF episode prior to the echo? According to "Atrial stunning is at maximum immediately after cardioversionby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hello Elizabeth, PC was vagal. Disopyramide worked well for him for a couple of years, but when it stopped doing so he opted for the ablation in Bordeaux. Hansby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hi Gregg, Pat Chambers (PC) is an MD afibber that used to post here regularly. He tried mightily to unravel afib mysteries using his medical background & considerable intellect. He retired from his medical practice during his afib career, in his mid-50's & devoted much of his free time to afib study. In pre-afib days, he was also a heavy exerciser & marathoner. He wrote ofteby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hans: I recall that P.C. used disopyramide, I don't remember if he was vagal or adrenergic. Arthur G. believes disopyramide could be used as well as propantheline as an anticholigenic. It didn't work for P.C. as he opted for an ablation. What is your thoughts on that? Lizby Elizabeth H - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hello Hans, Further to Arthur Gibson having posted here recently about his successful use of Propantheline Bromide in combating and eradicating his vagal AF, do you have any views, opinions and/or anecdotal evidence as regards the efficacy or otherwise of Arthur's strategy?? Has this strategy ever been looked at by you or any other researchers to your best knowledge? Whilst I get the impressiby Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM