Roger, There is a way to approach this with science. My EP once advised me that being your own control was perfectly acceptable. I took this advice and implemented it as follows: In the Conference Room archives, PC discusses AERP shortening as a risk for aifb. p. 3 ERP shortening due to (P cells + low potassium + ANS tone) => AF Risk Many more references here: My assumption is thaby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hi Ulla, You might want to look at Arthur Gibson's posts on Propantheline bromide. It does address ANS issues for vagal affibers. Here is a search result: In my case the one of the first things I tested for was H Pylori - test results negative. I also did a high sensitivity CRP test, looking for inflammation - results very low - its been over 5 years, so don't have the values ofby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
Jackie, Sorry to you had this hiccup in your road to continuous NSR! Gregg, "To show the accuracy of the statement of stunned heart I ad an echo post conversion and had a low EF despite being a distance runner with great cardio efficiency." Question - how long was the AF episode prior to the echo? According to "Atrial stunning is at maximum immediately after cardioversionby GeorgeN - AFIBBERS FORUM
thanks arthurby Charles - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur is there a rebound effect with respect to the stomach acid like and similar to that of proton pump inhibitors if one were to stop the PB?by Charles - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, I currently use a Papaya supplement which contains 20 GDU units of Bromelain and it works within 30 min. to relieve tightness in the chest and indegestion that I feel is side effect when changing dosage of Flec. Do you know if this compound is related to Propa. Bromine? Thanks for the wealth of info. Tom C.by Tom C - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur why Zantac say versus Nexium. Does Zantac affect vagal tone as well? I am scheduled for the Heidelberg test on June 16th and can't go on any proton pump inhibitors before then. However your description about vagals regarding digestion fits me perfectly.by Charles - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, I don't know how you came up with that broad summary of vagal and adrenergic folks, but the vagal part absolutely fits me to a T! The 4am maximum anxiety bit particularly struck home for me: if I wake up 3-4am and start thinking about everything, it all looks waaaaaay bad (I have over the years learned to largely ignore myself at that time of night!); and way worse than it does onceby Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
Is there an inference here that Vagal Afibbers also tend to secrete more stomach acid than normal?by Charles - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, Thanks for checking this out further and providing the updated response. My ventricular response rate during an AF attack varies depending on when the episode starts: if the episode starts late evening (2 of my 10 episodes to date have started 11pm) the VRR is highish at 130-150bpm; if the episode starts in the early hours (8 of my 10 episodes to date have started around 3-5am) then theby Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
"wouldn't such 1:1 AFltr only come on whilst IN AF as opposed to at any other time when one was/is NOT in AF?? " Mike, i hope the answer to that is yes. PeggyMby PeggyM - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, Many MANY thanks for the brilliant and well-humoured response!!!! I particularly like the bit: "Vagal affibers tend to have too much of the former and too little of the latter, with the result that the whole thing can be over before it has started and neither partner is fully satisfied if you get my drift..." I definitely do get your drift! Being totally honest here, I'by Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, I note that erectile dysfunction/sexual impotence is a known side effect of PB. Is this just at higher doses or at the lower doses too? I feel this is a particularly significant issue here since many here on this forum believe that AF is linked with falling testosterone as one ages. Any views/anecdotal evidence one way or the other?!? Mikeby Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, I would be very grateful if you could e-mail me the articles and any other information you have. Debbieby Debbie Sennet - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur: I will wait this one out--- Lby Elizabeth H - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur: In this country (U.S.A.) a lot of people are very quick to sue---doctors would no doubt back off from prescribing propantheline because it hasn't been tested and approved for afib, they have to cover themselves. Lizby Elizabeth H - AFIBBERS FORUM
Thanks Arthur--I actually have an appointment with my GP this Thursday so it would be worth a try asking her. Can someone direct me if they think it would be a good idea for me to try the propantheline? I believe I'm a "mixed" Afibber but I know without a doubt stress and stomach are my main triggers. I currently just use Flec for the PIP approach. I do have low stomach acid soby Teri - AFIBBERS FORUM
Can you only get Propantheline Bromide with a prescription? What if you don't have a Dr. that is up on the latest info (which is likely for a lot of us). My EP thinks the Trio supplementation is a waste of time so he surely won't be up on info on Propantheline Bromide. Therefore, how does a person go about getting more info and treatment? It appears most of you are much more "mby Teri - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hello Elizabeth, PC was vagal. Disopyramide worked well for him for a couple of years, but when it stopped doing so he opted for the ablation in Bordeaux. Hansby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hans: I recall that P.C. used disopyramide, I don't remember if he was vagal or adrenergic. Arthur G. believes disopyramide could be used as well as propantheline as an anticholigenic. It didn't work for P.C. as he opted for an ablation. What is your thoughts on that? Lizby Elizabeth H - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur; Please email me these materials. From the beginning, I have tried to convince my EP that AF is neurologically based--I am very excited to learn more. Louiseby louise emerson - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, Please email the articles to me too. <[email protected] Thanks, Mikeby Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hi Arthur, I'm interested in looking into the propantheline bromide theory. Dr Reiffel is retiring and not taking new patients. His secretary was not helpful with a referral. I tried to get a copy of the Journal you cited without success. Can you email a copy? Is there a more recent journal article about this line of thought? I will check out CR session 59 also. Thanks, Dennisby Dennis - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hello Mike, Vagal predominance is manifested by the vagal nerve endings pumping out an inappropriately large quantity of acetylcholine so it makes sense to try to counterbalance this by using an anticholinergic (antimuscarinic) drug such as propantheline bromide. This drug is usually prescribed for peptic ulcer while other antimuscarinic drugs are prescribed for an overactive bladder. The mainby Hans Larsen - AFIBBERS FORUM
Hello Hans, Further to Arthur Gibson having posted here recently about his successful use of Propantheline Bromide in combating and eradicating his vagal AF, do you have any views, opinions and/or anecdotal evidence as regards the efficacy or otherwise of Arthur's strategy?? Has this strategy ever been looked at by you or any other researchers to your best knowledge? Whilst I get the impressiby Mike - AFIBBERS FORUM
Arthur, to answer the question, I have a good heart so they say. And though I have cut back considerable on my exercise, I still occasionally go at it moderately for an hour or two and have not had a recurrence specific to those events. I'm thinking vagal, vaguely. I can imagine the conversation with my EP re: Propantheline Bromide. It is interesting that Jackie and Betty were sensitiveby billbee - AFIBBERS FORUM