Better magnesium uptake

For some reason, my uptake of magnesium has improved significantly over the last two weeks: RBC test jumped from low 3 range to 4.2. Today I am going to do the Exatest, the gold standard. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I have added angstrom magnesium, but only 10-20 mg (equiv 100-200), so I don't think that is it. As a part of my strategy to ween myself off flecainide, I also have reduced my dosage from 50 to 25 mg 2X a day (some contend that flecainide contributes to mineral wasting). I think that this change may have helped, though I think the greatest benefit has been derived from taking magnesium and potassium at different times. I try to make sure that I take them two hours apart. Now these musings are all very speculative, but fewer pacs and a sense of general better health are tangible. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Steve

Steve - I'll be very interested to learn the result of your Exatest.
As you know the RBC magensium is not reflective of what's inside the cells where we need it. Jackie

Hi Steve -

Good for you, and may you have complete success! Hope you won't regret asking for my thoughts! I'll digress a bit, but I'm coming back.

Regarding magnesium repletion, in your case attempting to overcome a suspected magnesium deficiency (MgD) with oral supplementation, if one is fortunate it can succeed quickly and easily, as apparently for you, while for many it can be literally impossible, even requiring repeated mag injections for success. The difference has to do with the degree of deficiency, and of course with the quality of the oral supplement used.

First, I think it is important to clarify the term 'magnesium deficiency', MgD, because it's ambiguous and can lead to confusion if one isn't careful:

1. Dietary MgD: 80% or more for those with "modern" diets.

2. Serum and RBC MgD: very rare because of the body's need to maintain serum mag concentration within tight limits (homeostasis). To a certain extent RBC mag reflects serum mag (ref. Jackie p.1, Seelig). You mention your RBC mag improvement -- did you also have serum mag measured? Could be interesting to compare. This is an important subject for discussion - at some other time. We should also discuss serum and RBC ionized Mg++ vs. mag bound to circulating protein, hence unavailable for cellular uptake.

2. Intracellular (IC) MgD is the one that matters here, the shortage of magnesium within 'metabolically active' cells (muscle cells, epithelial cells, neurons, etc.). When IC mag is somewhat sufficient for the energy requirements of the membrane pumps that must force mag into the cells against the necessarily high 'concentration gradient' (think pressure), then increasing the concentration of serum mag with oral supplementation, bringing more mag into contact with receptors on the cell membranes, will increase the amount pumped into the cells and quickly overcome the IC deficiency. BUT, if there is in-sufficient Mg within the cells for the mag pumps to work at all, then it hardly matters how much the serum Mg is cranked up. Catch 22; you can't get there from here; Bob Dylan singin' the pump don't work 'cus the vandal stole the handle. And of course, if there isn't enough mag for the mag pumps to work, the mag dependent potassium pumps won't work either, but that's for another time.

Where were we... oh yes, Exatest, the 'gold standard'. It truly is, at least the science is, but doubt regarding quality control over their analytical procedures and consequent reliability of reported results has come up. At one time they were called for clarification and assurance, but it was met with awful hostility and arrogant refusal to offer any information. This is the only reason we have backed off from recommending Exatest. Now that you have brought it up, and because it is potentially such a powerful tool for us, we should again try to resolve this issue. If it was possible for me to physically go to the company in Medford, Oregon and learn directly what goes on there, I would definitely do it. Does anyone live nearby? Medford, Ashland, Grant's Pass, even Klamath Falls or Eugene? Seems crazy to even ask such a thing. There must be a better way?

Anyway, good luck, Steve!

Erling

Hi Erling,

Great to see your wise counsel gracing the board again!!

George

Thanks Erling,

I am keeping my fingers crossed. Without any real hard data, the best means of evaluating what I perceive to be better magnesium absorption is the way I feel. I took 600 mgs of the glycinate for 6 months, upped to 8 then 900 for another 2 to 3 months (always with meals and potassium), without any real change other than the fact that I have had very few afib episodes and a number of pacs at night. The lack of afib events may have been solely because of the flecainide, but I think the supplementation must have helped. Nonetheless, the next episode never seemed that far way. I had to improve my electrolyte balance, and after I read a posting of George's, I changed my regimen to separate the times that I took the potassium and the magnesium. That really seemed to help. Then I added the angstrom, and I was in magnesium heaven. I may even have to scale a little because the bp goes a little low at times and I can feel a little too relaxed. If that is possible with this nasty condition! The improvements are tangible: better sleep, fewer pacs (my test is if I can lean heavily on my left elbow without any pacs, I am doing okay), and last one which can't be measured at all, less existential anxiety.

Steve

Erling,

I should add that I have intra-muscular shots twice a week. These may also have kicked in, though, I hadn't had a shot for over a week when the change seemed to take place.

Steve

Steve and Erling,

I'm currently having IM shots too - a course of 10 at 3 per week and I'll complete my 3rd shot tomorrow - 1 gram elemental mag per shot.

What I DO know from an Exatest I had a few months ago is that my IC mag was very low (30.7 range 33.9 - 41.9) and my IC cal high at 7.0 (range 3.2 to 5.0). As such, my Mag/Cal ratio was very poor at 3.7 as against range 6.1 to 12.2!!

So I DO categorically know that my Mag/Cal situation is way out of whack and more than likely highly contributory to my PACs and AF (I remember Peggy here saying when I was wondering about this that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... then it IS a duck!!!) A more difficult thing is what to do to get things back on track. Especially since electrically unstable hearts (PACs and AF) are prevalent on my mother's side of the family (my mum started with AF in her 30s and went permanent aged 70 in 2008) - maybe all my mum's side are mag wasters.... (As an aside; my doc today said that one gets one's mitochondria from one's mother.... bad news for me!)

Whilst I DO take Jackie's (and Erling's) recommended supplements (Mag gly, Tau, K gluc, ribose, carn, CoEQ10, Solgar iron-free multivit), I don't even know whether or not my current course of IM mag shots are even going to get some mag into my cells.... especially in view of Erling's comment above - "if there is in-sufficient Mg within the cells for the mag pumps to work at all, then it hardly matters how much the serum Mg is cranked up." But what more can I do?? (A course of 'IC mag injections' maybe? Not until nanobots are around to assist getting some into each cell unfortunately!) I'm currently wondering whether or not a calcium channel blocker might help get the IC cal levels down and thus help get the IC mag levels up.... I KNOW my IC mag is too low and my IC cal too high, but what the HECK MORE can I do?? Any views Erling/Jackie/anyone??

Mike (great to see you posting again Erling!)

Mike,

It is interesting that you mention calcium channel blockers, because to avoid anxiety and to preempt a potential episode, I take them when I fly. I rarely get any pacs on planes, and I a fly quite a bit. I don't want to take the calcium channel blockers daily because my resting heart rate and my blood pressure are both low, but maybe they would help correct some of the mag/cal imbalance. Not to overstate my satisfaction with the angstrom magnesium, but something changed when I started taking it. Last night, I had some pacs right before bed, and I took 100 mg, and they stopped almost immediately. Now does that mean the magnesium is being absorbed by the cells? I don't know, but nothing else has worked as effectively to this point, including the intra-muscular shots. I am praying this success lasts.

Steve

Steve - it would seem that this form is extremely fast acting or has fast absorption... as evidence by the settling down of ectopy quickly.... what is not known - at least yet - is if this form stays in the tissue and would provide a consistently optimal IC level.

The citrate form is highly absorbable but it doesn't remain in the tissue long... as evidenced by the bowel activity at higher doses. As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating... so if this form works for you...great. Hopefully, others will follow and try it as well... then we will know if it lasts long enough intracellularly to actually stabilize NSR or not.

Your experiment of one is exactly how we have managed to make as much progress as we have. Keep us posted.

Jackie

Mike - Long ago, Erling clued me in on the genetic inheritance from the mother regarding the mitochondrial DNA.... and we speculated I had inherted some of her many problems. I believe I am a magnesium waster as well... although I manage to stabilize fairly well now that I have been at repletion for so long... but... if I get a wee bit negligent, I'll have that AF breakthrough...so it is either the Mg or the K or both. So based on what you have learned about the maternal side of your family, that seems to put another piece of the puzzle in place.

As far as the Ca channel blocker, I have no experience personally. It would seem reasonable, though, and I'd think that along with continuing the IM injections, eventually, you should be able to optimize the IC Mg levels.

If you can locate some of this angstrom form that Steve has mentioned, it might be a useful adjunct as well.

Jackie

Steve,

The only 'angstrom' mag I can find by googling is:

[www.detoxyourworld.com]

Is this the one you use??

If you read this Jackie, what do you think of the product as per the above link? I'm struggling to reckon up how much elemental mag 10ml of the product will contain!

Mike

George and Erling,

I really don't see how "Angstrom" magnesium can be any different from the magnesium found in Waller water. They are both in the ionic form and obviously in association with something else - in the case of Waller water, a bicarbonate ion. I also agree with George and Mike that there is no way the size of the magnesium atom can be 1 angstrom - it just ain't possible!

My feeling is that some considerable amount of marketing hype is involved here, but am of course willing to be convinced otherwise.

Hans

Mike,

I purchased mine at healthshop101.com. This is the outfit that Carolyn Dean recommended.
Also the 10 Mg is the equivalent of 100 mg in tablet form.

Steve

Jackie,

That makes perfect sense. But (and maybe I should put this question out to Erling as well) if the magnesium is getting into the tissues (even if for a short time) does that mean that the magnesium pump is working well enough to absorb magnesium? And does that mean that different forms of magnesium should be used as long and short term strategies, namely to establish a higher baseline (long term) and to eliminate pacs (short term) that might bring on an event?

I will post with the Exatest results when I receive them.

Thanks,
Steve

Hans - I feel the same way, but in some cases as in CoQ10, they are saying the nano-particles deliver the nutrient more effectively.... same with colloidal silver. ("they say" ) I'm wondering if the angstrom particle size works better in people who have plugged or blocked intestinal villi? Villi in the case of Candida overgrowth are blocked and nutrient absorption is inhibited..... Jackie

Steve - well, obviously, anything that is going to deliver the magnesium and facilitate the sodium/potassium pump function is going to make the difference.

As I commented to Hans... perhaps the smaller particle size (if valid) allows enough through the absorption sites to make a difference. I'm just musing.

Since you have taken the IM injections, though, it doesn't really mean your success is attributed to this new angstrom form... just that perhaps at this point in time, you are close to optimizing and any little bit more may facilitate the end result we are hoping to achieve. It would have been very meaningful to know your IC levels before the IM magnesium and the various oral dosing and then, again, after you have been treating for several months.

Jackie

My own doc as a friend as well as a doc IS happy enough to 'indulge' me in giving me IM Mag shots, but he IS at the same time rather sceptical arguing that if serum levels are normal and Mag isn't getting into the cells then what difference is upping serum levels with IM injections 3 x a week going to make? Has he a fair point?? And surely this, if reasonable enough as an assertion, has adverse ramifications for anyone supplementing with mag whether orally, transdermally or even IM - all one is doing with any of the three aforementioned is getting more mag into the blood serum, and that is surely no guarantee whatsoever of getting Mag into the cells where it is so badly needed. Is there not a commensurate argument that supplementing with mag is only required where one has absorption issues intestinally or not enough in the diet? Not meaning to sound overly negative or undermine the importance as perceived here on this forum as regards the benefits of actively supplementing with mag, but how do I convince my own doc to the contrary that IM injections WILL help increase IC levels to the point where Mag will become optimised??
Mike

Mike - there is plenty of backup by magnesium experts about the serum versus IC levels... so why not just be mute for a while, get the IM injections frequently as long as he is cooperative, and then retest after 3 - 4 months.... even 6 months. If your IC levels increase as predicted... that will be proof.

However, if you are a significant waster, then you may need much longer than that time period and higher doses of the IM magnesium as you never 'gain' on the repletion since you can be wasting faster than the amount of input. I'd keep trying the topical approach as well as the IM. Jackie

I hear you Jackie and I'm as anxious to believe that I can make a worthwhile difference to my Mag/Cal ratio as anyone can/could be. Thinking out loud as I write... maybe deliberately and systematically increasing serum mag levels on an acute daily basis over and above normal range CAN act as a pump-primer for those tired-out mag pumps!

I will, of course, stick with my protocol including Mag chloride baths, 6-800 mag glyc/day and IM injections (as long as I can in the case of the latter although this is rather more outside my control) and get IC-tested again in a couple or three months. As you say, the results of my second Exatest should be definitive one way or the other.

Mike

Mike for the tired pumps... you need to refer to The Strategy and understand that magnesium is just the initial step in getting the energy to the pumps so all works well. It's the whole system of Metabolic Cardiology which is why I titled it the way I did. When you have the mitochondrial dysfunction issues, it becomes even more of a struggle to get it all working in harmony once again. With the mitochondrial DNA damage, it's a continual downhill spiral, unfortunately. I'm just working hard to keep all those cells and organelles as happy as possible. Jackie

Hi Mike, good to be "speaking" with you again!

Background: The main reason IV and IM and trans-dermal mag supplementation is more effective than oral is because it bypasses the limitation of 'active transport' across the gut wall, - active-transport meaning that energy from mag dependent ATP (MgATP*) is needed to drive the process, just as with the heart muscle cells. Catch 22 again. This probably explains why 'bowel tolerance' of oral mag can be lower when mag deficiency is greater, the mag having nowhere to go but out, and why tolerance may improve as deficiency is reduced. I don't know the exact reason for active transport in bowel-to-serum trans-location, but in heart muscle cells it is to overcome a 'concentration gradient' of something like 12:1 (Alan Gaby, MD, the booklet 'Magnesium'.) I like the analogy with a car tire, where the concentration gradient of air molecules is 0 psi outside vs. say, 34 psi inside, requiring active-transport of air via an energy-requiring air compressor. (Extending this analogy, measuring mag in RBCs to learn the amount in heart muscle cells is like measuring atmospheric pressure to learn the pressure in the tire. Funny-farm time. Like The Far Side cartoon where the kid with books under his arm is pushing on the door to SCHOOL FOR THE GIFTED and the sign says PULL)

It's great that you have a doctor willing to give IM shots of mag, but I'm disappointed that it's only mag in the shots, no co-factors, also that it's not IV, and I wonder if one gram of mag per shot is enough. The 'name of the game' is to raise the concentration of mag at the cell membrane so high that some must get into the cell, regardless of a deficiency inside. If it was me, I'd be pushing for intravenous injections using Dr. Alan Gaby's protocol that I posted to you earlier, but I would first have him read that so he'd understand why "it's the right and proper thing to do"! -- as I see it.
[www.afibbers.org] Dr. Gaby's 'Myers' Cocktail' is magnesium based and has "Magnesium chloride hexahydrate 20%, 2 - 5 cc" per IV injection. I'm hoping George will see this and convert this to mg. of elemental magnesium. Thank you, George!

Go for broke, Mike! - "Remember, we're pullin' for ya, we're all in this together". Seems to me you've been struggling with this for far too long so lets fix it.

Erling

*magnesium being an essential attachment to the ATP molecule for it to release its energy.

Hi Erling,

From <[www.afibbers.org];

"The molecular weight of magnesium is 24.305 and of magnesium chloride hexahydrate ( MgCl2(H2O)6 ) is 203.31. So, on a weight basis, the hexadydrate is 11.95% magnesium."

From <[www.afibbers.org];

"The solution to be used is a 2.5% Magnesium Chloride hexahydrate (MgCl2-6H2O) solution (i.e.: 25 grams / 1 liter of water)"

So a 20% solution would be 20/2.5 x 25 = 200 grams hexahydrate / liter
or 200g x 11.95% = 23.9 grams elemental mag per liter.

1 cc = 0.001 liter
2 cc = 0.002 liter x 23.9 grams = 0.0478 grams or 47.8 mg
5 cc = 0.005 liter x 23.9 grams = 0.1195 grams or 119.5 mg

From: [curezone.com]
"For INTRAVENOUS injection, the formula is:
Magnesium Chloride hexahydrate 25 grams
Distilled Water 100 cc
Make injections of 10-20cc (very slowly, over 10-20 minutes) once or twice a
day. Of course the solution must be sterilized."

So this would be .1 x 25 x 11.95% = 0.298 g or 298 mg
or .2 x 25 x 11.95% = 0.597 g or 597 mg

So one gram seems adequate.

If all the people taking Angstrom mag have good results, it'd be interesting to have them switch to a mag chloride solution & see if the results hold. Mag chloride can be had very inexpensively as I point out in the above links.

George

Erling,

Many thanks for the helpful response. Here in the UK, I'm lucky to be getting any form of Mag shots at all. IV would be considered a hospital visit rather than the local surgery (for IM) and there's NO way that would be entertained when y serum mag is always bang-on in middle of normal range. I also doubt very much that even my understanding and enlightened doc would be able to get hold of/be willing to start trying to concoct something along the lines of a Myers cocktail: I can only 'push' my favour allocation so far! So the IM mag it is: I'll complete this course of 10 IMs of 1g each over a 3.3 week period (3 IMs per week), get re-Exatested and see where I go from there. If there's a significant increase in IC Mag, then I'll likely be able to persuade my doc to give me another 10 IMs maybe 1 per week.

Did you see my IC Exa results over on Steve's Exa results thread? The Mag/Cal ratio is what understandably enough bothers me the most; and I REALLY got to do everything I possibly can to change that for the better!

George,

Many thanks for the math. BTW; what was your IC Cal when you last had an Exatest? I can't help but think that my high IC Cal is the biggest part of my own inbalance. I'm contemplating adding a calcium channel blocker to try and stop the Ca getting into the cells, but my doc wants to see out the mag shots first i.e. one step at a time. I think that my own familial (mother's side) AF predisposition must arise from my mother's mitochondria: maybe my mother's and my mitos don't do a very good job of temporarily storing calcium (to help buffer calcium in the cells and maintain correct calcium balance in the cells) like they should and that's a big part of my problem? I've excluded all dairy from my diet and can't think of any other way I'm getting a lot of calcium either dietary or otherwise.

Kind regards,

Mike

Mike,

I've not repeated the test since Sept 2005, and I'm not sure where those results are filed at the moment. My recollection is that IC Cal was high.

George

Hi George,

- and many thanks for hearing my 'Help! and doing the calculations. So the 'bottom line' is that the 1 g. mag per IM injection that Mike has been getting should be fine. I do wish the injections had included co-factor nutrients per Dr. Gaby. Man/woman may not live by magnesium alone!

Erling

Hi Mike,

>"Here in the UK, I'm lucky to be getting any form of Mag shots at all. IV would be considered a hospital visit rather than the local surgery (for IM) and there's NO way that would be entertained when serum mag is always bang-on in middle of normal range."

I understand. Such are the limitations of mainstream medicine's knowledge and practice. Not recognizing that serum mag is essentially meaningless and invariably "normal", unless the person is really sick (Jackie, p.1, Seelig/Rosanoff), ought to be considered malpractice and cause for revocation of license. Dr. Gaby's medicine is not mainstream, but is cutting edge science: MD + Master's in biochemistry + many many years of research and clinical practice. Just be sure you are getting (orally) all of the other nutrients in his Meyers' Cocktail.

Please note that Dr. Gaby's IV 'cocktail' injections are done in the office, not hospital, via syringe, "a 25G butterfly needle".

Be well! I hope to be posting about the Exatest results a bit later today.

Erling

George,

You have a way of locating and posting gems. I just read [curezone.com] Thank you.

Erling