2 Qs on Bicarbonates

Friends,

I'm gathering from reading this forum, particularly the discussion of Waller Water, that acidosis is an issue for afibbers, and of course for many others. Two questions related to this, if I may:

(1) Being an American, and not being scientifically or mathematically inclined, I'm wondering if anyone's done a recipe for Waller Water in English units (quarts, ounces, etc.) instead of metric (liters, mls, etc.). I would find such instructions helpful.

(2) I've been seeing lately articles by Marc Sircus on the use of sodium bicarbonate for treatment of cancer, and now influenza. For example:

[sodiumbicarbonate.imva.info]

Of course, one has to purchase his book to get the details. Does anyone have any idea of the value of this approach? I'm guessing it is somehow related to the value that many on this forum have experienced using Waller Water, but I'm not sure.

Many thanks!



--Lance

Lance - the WW is magnesium bicarbonate... vs sodium. Too much sodium in afibbers could be an issue, especially if they are low in potassium.

The WW recipe/instructions are at this link and are easy to follow... and don't require you know the metric equivalencies. I make it all the time.
The only think I don't do is add the lemon juice. And Erling says there is no need to refrigerate the end result or concentrate.
[www.afibbers.org]

On the cancer issues, I've read a great deal on the use of the sodium bicarbonate. Cancer thrives in an acidic environment so the alkalinity from the bicarbonate would seem to be of huge benefit. Those who are knowedgeable and conversant in the value of keeping tissue pH alkaline have repeatedly emphasized that it's healthier to be slightly alkaline than highly acidic and the typical SAD diet - Standard American Diet tends to produce a high level of acicity... hence, the disease prevalence linked to poor dietary choices.

An exception would be, and this sounds contrary, but we do need stomach acid for properly breaking down food molecules into usable nutrients such as minerals.... and so, in this case, acid is important at meal times. For that reason, it's best not to use the WW with meals as it may neutralize the effect of naturally-produced stomach acid or that which is added supplementally.

Jackie

There seems to be a lot of (renewed) discussion now on over-acidity as the root cause of the osteoporosis epidemic in the western world (as opposed to calcium "deficiency"). There seems to be good clinical evidence that the consumption of bicarbonates (mostly via an emphasis on alkaline fruits and vegetables) results in greatly decreased urinary excretion of calcium. I supplement with potassium bicarbonate as I tested on the low side for K+.

Trent

Hi Trent - Yes - and sure. Remember that when majority of food/beverage intake produces acid ash, then in order for the kidneys to process acidic waste, they have to first buffer what comes to them and in this buffering process, calcium is pulled from storage (bones) and the kidneys remain protected from the harsh acidity of the SAD. This is where the expression: "peeing out your bones" comes from and is often references to the tendency for women to drink an excessive amount of cola drinks (diet) that have a very low pH due to the phosphoric acid content.

Jackie

Jackie,

Regarding the Waller water instructions, I'll give it a shot. It's just that I was put off by the fact that I can't buy carbonated water in liter bottles and I don't have measuring containers calibrated in liters.

So I guess a related question would be: How exact do these measurements need to be?

Trent,

I'm curious. May I ask: Wherefrom and in what form do you obtain the potassium bicarbonate? How do you take it?

Many thanks!



--Lance

Lance - Look for Seltzer water... it either comes in one or two liter bottles... very common in stores everywhere. Here we have both brand names like Cotton Club or generic brand versions. As long as it has no sodium, any brand will do.

For the two liter, then just double the amount of the Milk of Magnesia.

This is not an exact science project.

You don't need to measure the seltzer. Probably no two bottles contain precisely the same amount, anyway.

You open the bottle carefully, and pour out a bit - like half a cup or so into a glass or cup and reserve it for adding back to the bottle. Then measure the MoM as directed ... and very carefully pour into the liter or 2 liter bottle....very slowly...if you pour too fast, it will bubble out of the bottle. Then you pour back in the reserved seltzer to within about an inch of the top. Seal again and agitate as directed.

You'll do fine. You can hardly go wrong.

Good luck.

Jackie

Lance,

I buy Potassium Basics from Life Enhancement, www.life-enhancement.com. From the blurb on the bottle: "The active ingredient is potassium bicarbonate, a special form of potassium for those who are also concerned about living up to their full potential of healthy bones, epithelial function, and dietary acid load." "The recommended daily serving ... is 2 capsules, 2 to 4 times daily which provide a total of 2.7 g of potassium bicarbonate (1.35 g in each capsule) per 2 capsule serving. The elemental amount of potassium in 2.7 g of potassium bicarbonate is 1.05 g."

They used to recommend taking the capsules on an empty stomach but, in light of recent research, no longer think it necessary.

I recall that someone else on the board was using potassium bicarbonate from another source. It's probably searchable using "Potassium bicarbonate" as the search term.

Trent

I have powdered potassium bicarbonate - it is sold as 'no sodium baking powder'. I must have bought it online, but can't remember where from.

Joyce

A possible caveat for those who are trying to alkalize their bodies: while it may be true that your body benefits by being alkaline, there are parts of your digestive system that need to be quite acidic (I'm looking at you, small intestine). If the pH gets too high in certain areas of the gut, at least 2 problems can crop up:

1. Digestion can't occur effectively, which leads to reduced nutrient absorption. This includes Magnesium, which, as you probably know is an important thing to absorb if you've got Afib. Apparently, it is especially important that your digestive system have sufficient HCl. If it's too low, you can fix it by taking betaine hydrochloride.

2. Bad flora can invade more easily from the colon (the low pH acts as a barrier against certain flora), causing a host of additional problems.

Note however, that there appears to be conflicting information in this area. I've seen claims, for example, that you can fight candida by making your digestive system more basic, and also by making it more acidic! If anybody can point to a conclusive argument one way or another, please post here!

For those who wish to delve deeper, my two main sources for this information are "The Magnesium Miracle" by Carolyn Dean, and "Optimal Digestive Health - A Complete Guide", edited by Nichols and Faass.

Hi Lance -

Thanks for your questions -- an opportunity to refer to the important Unique Water information recently retrieved by GeorgeN. (Thank you very much, George! It is valuable and certainly appreciated.) Some seven years ago that led to the development of our WW with the same magnesium ion and bicarbonate alkalinity characteristics (co-conspirator Jackie nicknamed it Waller Water and it stuck).

Please go to a recent thread titled 'A Hypothesis Concerning Skinny People' bu Nick Bentley [www.afibbers.org] and see George's post (http://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?f=8&i=11356&t=11256&v=t) where he uses an amazing (to me) search tool called the 'Way Back Machine' to locate the Unique Water document 'Non Pharmaceutical Health Care and Unique Water', [web.archive.org]. At the bottom are relevant links and references, for example: "Human metastatic breast cancer cells in culture contain large acidic vesicles ..... large acidic vesicles were associated with both phagocytosis and invasion ...."

Erling

Nick - good points to consider. We are not talking high alkalinity; but just over the neutral area and slightly into the alkaline pH. As with anything, you can overdo it.

I've posted continually about the need for adequate stomach acid, HCl.
However, the Albion version --magnesium bisglycinate chelated amino acid....does not need or rely on stomach acid for proper metabolism. It is formulated to be absorbed directly from the small intestine where it enters the blood stream and needs no further chemical reaction which includes stomach acid.

I'll check some of my books on pH regarding your candida question. However, to kill candida (yeast), the therapy includes not feeding it and that would mean no starchy carbs or sugar. As you know, both metabolize to acid ash. So, if that's logical, then adding acid wouldn't help.

Here's a statement from a quick web search:
An acidic pH environment provides a fertile bed for fungal overgrowth. As such, an acidic pH is one of the factors that encourages Candida overgrowth to start and keeps the fungus healthy.
[www.candidasupport.org]

Jackie

Nick,

I appreciate the caveats. It's difficult to know how to balance; both over-acidity and over-alkalinity being potentially problematic. I suppose ph test strips give some guidelines, but probably approximate at best. It seems that, given our SAD diet, environmental circumstances and levels of stress, over-acidity is the still greater risk. I'm unclear on the relationship between digestive ph and celluar/tissue ph. Maybe Jackie can help.

Trent

Thanks Jackie,

I'm confused as to what the link is actually saying. I had assumed that the words you quoted were referring to the pH of the stomach or small intestine, but a couple of paragraphs up on the page, it says:

"There are areas in the body that need their own pH environment. For instance, there is a more acidic pH for the stomach where the acid needs to be strong at one time for digestion of your meal, and then grow weaker at other times so you don’t have heartburn problems. There is another “correct range” of pH for the small intestine, and a different one for the large intestine. The body in balance will regulate all these areas by itself. But we concern ourselves here with the pH of the body on the whole and how it relates to Candida overgrowth."

So this would seem to leave open the question of what the pH of the small intestine should be in order to fight candida. The optimal scenario could be, for example, an somewhat alkaline body and a highly-acidic small intestine, or it could be something else entirely.

If it is true that you want an acidic GI, but an otherwise basic body, this might explain why lemon juice seems to help so many people: it has a strong alkalyzing effect on the body (the products of it's digestion are basic). Perhaps it leaves the stomach more acidic than other other alkalyzing nutrients.

I didn't know that about Mg bis-glycinate. I think this helps to resolve a confusion I have had over it: I couldn't figure out why everybody recommended using it, despite it having a stability constant of 3.45. Out of curiousity, how *does* it get metabolized?

Lance-

For the purposes here - 1 liter = 1 quart. Close enough (a liter is 5% more than a quart but it will not make a bit difference here).

Get plain milk of magnesia (MOM) and shake

Get a 1 or 2 quart (liter) bottle of carbonated or soda water.

Chill it to refrigerator temperature

Slowly open & pour out a couple of ounces

Measure out 3 tablespoons of the MOM per quart (liter) of the soda water and slowly put in the soda water (6 tablespoons for 2 quarts).

Cap the soda water and shake.

Shake again in an hour.

If there is still MOM in the bottle, shake again.

When the reaction is complete, the bottle should be slightly "caved in" as the MOM has reacted with the CO2. There may still be some MOM in the bottom of the bottle. This is OK.

Drink it diluted - 10 or 11 to 1.

George

Nick - I've been banging away at the drum over the reason why the glycinate form is useful for so many it seems almost weekly in various posts. I'm glad you connected with this one.

See the following explanation from a previous post. Not that the WW form isn't useful. It definitely is as is the topical form called 'magnesium oil'... as transdermal deliver is quick and efficient and also doesn't have to be broken down by stomach acid.

The magnesium story is a very large 'chapter' in what's critical for optimal health. Because there are so many variations in situations that leave many of us vulnerable to low intracellular levels of magnesium - especially in heart cells - it becomes important to attempt to understand as much as possible and try to sort out what fits for your biochemical uniqueness.

Shortly, I'll be posting a list of 'one-liners' that will serve to emphasize the importance of magnesium for health and for afibbers, especially... mostly as a review for those who have not slugged through all this as the story unfolded years ago.

Advantages of Chelated Minerals

Author: Jackie
Date: 08-14-05 16:27

In a recent teleconference featuring a presentation by Sharon R. Price, Ph.D., CN , the advantages of chelated minerals were discussed. While it was not the presentation topic, some time was spent to emphasize the need to recognize that in order to be absorbed and assimilated to any degree of measured or calculable benefit, it is worth knowing why chelated minerals are a better choice. Reference was made to Albion chelated minerals. This is the company that has patents on chelating minerals.… magnesium glycinate (for one) with which we are familiar. [Albion did not sponsor the teleconference, but the nutritionists speaking were using minerals chelated by the Albion process.]

After listening, I reflected on the potential side effects caused by a mix of ionic minerals together as evidenced by some symptoms many afibbers report.

We already know to use magnesium glycinate, and for about a year, I was using a chelated potassium product which I do believe was much better in reducing ectopy. It was Solgar’s Amino Acid Potassium Complex – in the form of potassium glycinate which is an Albion chelate. Hans has it on his website and as soon as I finish the potassium citrate I’m using, I’m going back to the chelated version. I don’t even know why I stopped! [they are listed as $5.82 /100 tablets without the discount]. What a bargain!

We may want to check all the forms of minerals we take after reading this thread.

Jackie

Here are some of the comments from the presentation and then a reference page.

- Therapeutic doses of any mineral must be accomplished with chelated minerals. Chelated minerals are designed to the ability to survive stomach and will break down directly in the intestine, ready to enter the blood stream immediately, unlike ionic minerals that are split in the gut unless chelated. There is no interference with hydrochloric acid (HCl) or food fiber. You take them, they pass through the stomach, all intact, together and, “boom” they are in the blood.

- The problem arises when multiple (unchelated) ionic minerals are consumed together and then break down into a ‘chemical experiment’ going on in the stomach, then there is no reliable calculation as to how much of what is actually bioavailable and utilized.

You can go to Albion’s website [www.albion-an.com] and learn more about the importance of chelated minerals but following are some highlights. Specific mention in the teleconference was made to the ‘wheel’ showing which minerals tend toward antagonism with each other and need to be monitor for correct balance or ratios… like calcium to magnesium, sodium to potassium, chromium to vanadium, copper to zinc. It’s worth viewing the wheel.

Many minerals with inversion to the standard ratio indicate a route to checking for disease processes; ie, if sodium is high – look to inflammation and allergy; with poor digestion and low B vitamins, Calcium is elevated relative to magnesium.

Natural HCl in the stomach is used to make food minerals available. [chelated minerals do not benefit from HCl- as previously stated.]

Chelated minerals provide us with the essential requirement of packaging our minerals in a way that allows them to be absorbed by the body without going through extra steps to do so.

BENEFITS
• Improved Absorption
• Increased Tolerability
• Less Absorption Interference from Foods
• Guaranteed Purity and Stability
• Guaranteed pH Stability

WHAT IS A CHELATED MINERAL, AND WHY IS IT IMPORTANT
Chelated minerals are minerals, such as zinc, manganese, magnesium, copper, iron, or calcium that are surrounded by amino acids, which are bonded in a stable form to the mineral. In the body's natural process of digestion, amino acids are used to naturally chelate minerals and help transport them across the intestinal wall. If you think of a mineral as being essentially an insoluble rock, the process of chelation helps to convert the mineral and hide it in an amino acid coating that makes it usable by the body. This essentially makes it bioavailable. According to Albion Laboratories, "Bioavailability is the amount of a substance that is absorbed and available for metabolic use by the body once it is ingested."

WHY IS SUPPLEMENTATION WITH MINERALS IMPORTANT?
It is true we live in a wealthy nation that should be able to afford the best nutrition for its inhabitants. However, it is perplexing that people still use this fact to support the theory that vitamin or mineral deficiencies are rare...especially when one of the most common diseases linked to Westernization, osteoporosis, comes from Calcium deficiency!! Additionally, there are many more illnesses that are common in the Western world that have nutritional links supported by solid science. One example of a mineral deficiency that affects our health is Zinc deficiency. It has been well documented, and recently publicized, that even a minor deficiency in Zinc inhibits healthy immune function. It is clear that we should be radically changing our diets to provide all the necessary vitamins and minerals. At the very least, we should supplement with forms that are bioavailable.
Deficiencies or imbalances in certain minerals can affect the following body systems:
1. Immune System: Cu, Zn, Fe, Se
2. Energy Production: Mg, P, Mn
3. Hormone System: Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, Mg, K
4. Vitamin Production: Co
5. Blood Production: Cu, Fe
6. Enzyme Systems: Zn, Cu, K, Mn, Mg, Fe, Ca, Mo
7. Skeletal System: Ca, Mg, Zn, Mn, B, P
8. Reproduction: P, Cu, K, Mn, Zn, Mg

Adapted from Albion Laboratories

THE "OTHER HALF" OF MINERALS
Much debate exists over the form that a mineral comes in, or as Albion Laboratories has called it, the "other half" (or ligand) of a mineral. A ligand is the amino acid to which minerals are often bound to in the chelating process. It may seem strange that so much controversy is involved with this "other half" when the benefit we are mostly interested in is from the mineral! The controversy, it turns out, is important because the "other half" of a mineral can influence its effectiveness, including factors such as bioavailability, tolerability, safety, retention in the tissue, and its chemical interactions. Here are some of the questions that can be encountered when looking at the mineral form:

Is glycine or picolinate a better ligand for the chelation of minerals?
Glycine is used in the Albion Laboratories manufacturing process of creating a chelated mineral. The question of what is the best ligand for a mineral is a common question, as picolinates are used often by companies claiming to make chelated minerals, whereas Albion uses glycine. The first issue in addressing this question is how each of these ligands affect the bioavailability of the mineral. Because glycine is metabolized by the body after it is absorbed, and the picolinate is not metabolized after absorption, the glycine would perform better in metabolism. The fact that glycine is used nutritionally, and picolinate is treated as a waste product for the body is also important. In studies regarding the effectiveness of picolinate as a chelating ligand for zinc, it has been found that the picolinates do not enhance absorption of zinc over other zinc forms (citrate or sulfate). The picolinates even went so far as to increase the excretion of supplemental zinc and endogenous zinc from the body as well as reducing the tissue retention in animals fed zinc picolinate.

The question of picolinates vs. glycine is an important example not only for bioavailability, but also for nutritional functionality. The use of picolinate as a chelating agent with zinc is an excellent example of the difference between a simple chelate, and a "nutritionally functional" chelate. This is because the use of picolinates makes good chelating agents because they make zinc absorb well into the body, however they are not "nutritionally functional" because they promote the excretion (and not use) of zinc once it is in the body.

Glycine, however, has important metabolic functions in the body, and research supports its use as a safe nutritionally functioning chelating agent. Glycine helps to preserve muscle mass. It is an essential component in the synthesis of creatine, which helps prevent liver damage due to alcohol abuse, and prevents ulcer-formation. Glycine also plays important roles in the central nervous system (CNS), the immune system, energy production, and the maintenance of a healthy prostate.

How do Glycine Amino Acid Chelates perform versus Salts, Citrates, Krebs-Cycle Complexes, or Bran Chelates in terms of Bioavailability and GI Tolerance?

Salts
Salts are the usual form that minerals are found in multivitamin and mineral supplements. Depending on the mineral, and other digestive factors, their bioavailability can be poor to adequate, and their GI tolerance can be poor to adequate.

Citrates
Citrate bioavailability can be poor to very good, and their GI tolerance can be poor to adequate.

Krebs-Cycle Complexes
Krebs-Cycle Complexes do not have the same stable bonding of chelates, only exhibiting weak ionic or hydrogen bonds, which do not increase their bioavailability. Theoretically, their bioavailability should be low, and their GI tolerance should be low, but there is no data on these factors to say for certain.

Glycine Amino Acid Chelates
Albion Laboratories holds the patents on the processes that create the nutritionally functional amino acid chelates made with glycine. Their bioavailability is very good and their GI tolerance is very good.

THE AUTHENTIC CHELATES
The National Nutritional Food Association (NNFA) created a definition of what an Amino Acid Chelate is in 1996; currently, Albion chelates are the only known chelates to meet the NNFA definition:

Metal Amino Acid Chelate is the product resulting from the reaction of a metal ion from a soluble metal salt with amino acids with a mole ratio of one mole of metal to one to three (preferably two) moles of amino acids to form coordinate covalent bonds. The average molecular weight of the hydrolyzed amino acids must be about 150 AMU (Atomic Mass Units) and the resulting chelate must not exceed 800 AMU. The minimum elemental metal content must be declared. It will be declared as a METAL amino acid chelate: e.g. Copper amino acid chelate.

-Adapted by the NNFA Board of Directors, July 1996
In order for chelation to occur, the following minimum requirements must be met:
• The same metal ion.
• The ligand must form a heterocyclic ring with the metal as the closing member of the ring.
• It must be sterically possible to chelate the metal.
• The molar ratio of the ligand to the metal must be at least 1:1

The above requirements, however, do not guarantee that a chelate is nutritionally functional. For a nutritionally functional chelate, the following further requirements must be met:
• The chelate must have a molecular weight less than 1000 daltons.
• The chelate must be electrically neutral. The chelate must not be complexed with an easily ionizable anion, such as a halogen or a sulfate group; the ligand must satisfy both the oxidative state and a coordination number of the metal atom.
• The chelate must have a high enough stability constant to avoid competitive chemical interactions in the gut prior to absorption.
• The ligand must be easily metabolized.

In summary, Albion Mineral Chelates are the mineral chelates, which can most closely mimic the body's natural chelation process. These chelates allow for the metabolization of mineral ligands. All Albion's processes are patented, and Albion has invested heavily in the research of its minerals for many years.

SUGGESTED USE AND SAFETY
Mineral Chelates can be taken and used just like regular multivitamins. The added benefits are: better bioavailability, higher tolerability, and less toxicity. Because chelates are easily absorbed by our bodies, and there are less problems with food or other nutrient interactions and they do not cause gastrointestinal distress (as found with most regular multivitamins and minerals), chelated minerals may be taken with a greater degree of trust and convenience throughout the day.

Source: [www.optimalnutrients.com]

I used Waller water for a little over 2 weeks straight until I started to experience a stomachache with nausea. Even after adding a bit of lemon juice, I experienced the stomachache. I now use Waller water less often. I also moved my supplements to after my meal. The stomachache and nausea are still "in the background" but not as severe. Still looking for the culprit.
Cyndie

Lance,

I buy potassium bicarbonate capsules from Rockwell Nutrition:

[www.rockwellnutrition.com]

I always take one at bedtime, and sometimes one after my evening meal. It has had a positive effect on my blood pressure as well as aiding digestion.

Marian

Thanks to all for their kind responses to my queries.

I'm going out today to buy selzter and MOM. I appreciate very much the several reassurances about the recipe from Jackie, Erling, and George. (It's not that I'm completely helpless or in my dotage; I'm just rather busy with my work and don't relish too much fiddling. Maybe I also was traumatized in chemistry lab as a youth!)

Just to show I've done my homework on the potassium bicarb, I found the Life Enhancement brand (thanks to Trent), with an interesting blurb about "eating more like a caveman," here:

[bit.ly]

It claims to provide about 500 gms of elemental potassium per capsule, which seems like quite a bit. It's cheap enough, $9.97 for 120 caps. I was happy to see a warning about the contraindication of potassium for those with weak kidney function.

The above page has links to "articles and research about this product," product, including this discussion of what seems to be an approximation of the Paleolithic diet:

[bit.ly]

The Designs for Health product, which Marian kindly linked here

[bit.ly]

contains 300 mgs as potassium glycinate and potassium bicarbonate. The emphasis seems to be on the potassium rather than the bicarbonate. It's pricier, at $22.00 for 120 caps.

That's it!



--Lance

Lance,

I think you meant to write 500 mgs (not 500 gms) per capsule for the Life Enhancement brand of potassium bicarbonate. Two capsules should be a little more than a gram of elemental K+.

Trent

Trent,

Ooops! Right, 500 mgs. Even that is quite a bit. I thought there was a rule that supplements could only contain a max. of 99 or 100 mgs per dose.

Cheers!



Post Edited (11-28-09 11:36)

--Lance

You are right about that 99mg limit per capsule or tablet. However, Campbell's low sodium v8 juice contains 830 mg elemental potassium per 8 oz portion, mostly from KCl added by Campbell's so as to make up for the salt they do not add to this version of their famous juice. Also potassium is available as a bulk powder, both K gluconate and KCl[potassium chloride] and of course a bottle of either one contains quite a lot, i don't know how much. I use the K gluconate from iHerb myself, and it provides 540 mg elemental K per level teaspoonful. I use 2-3 teaspoons per day, each mixed into a big glass of water. The main side effect i have noticed is a notable lack of afib episodes, currently none since April when i set off an episode by taking an overdose of sudafed and then going for an interview at our local DHHS, the Maine version of the welfare department. As i left there to get in a cab, i felt a strong tachycardia which turned into afib. Between the bad cold i had, the sudafed, and the anger which normally results from contact with that department, and also i had not drunk my glass of potassium flavored water that morning, it was a perfect setup for afib and there it went. But i have been more careful since then, and have had no more trouble.
PeggyM

Thanks so much Jackie,

I don't know where you get the time to do all that typing, but I'm grateful for it.