A-fib and obsessive behavior.

GeorgeN's recent thread on autism/ausbergers, and related conditions, stimulated a question in my curious mind.

For years some of us have pondered the connection between a-fib and various forms of obsession, the most obvious being athletic obsession.

It might be interesting if someone familiar with autism/ausbergers took charge of this thread to evaluate how many a-fibbers fit under the broad umbrella of "related conditions".

I'm essentially ignorant of the subject, but imagine that obsessiveness, fastidiousness, intellectual capabability, ability to concentrate for long periods, private versus public focus, ??? would be involved.

I assume GeorgeN might fit there. I certainly do. I'd bet that Jackie does. Teresa said she did. I wouldn't be surprised to find PC and Hans there.

If there is some correlation, the only beneficial result might be that it would help us further justify and extend some of the dietary/supplement choices that have been found to be beneficial to a-fibbers.

What do you think, PC? Hans? Jackie?

I'm betting we'd wonder down statistical bias road again. As I've said many times this is a self selecting group of people. We don't represent the AF population as a whole of even the LAF population as a whole. For everyone of us who posts there are dozens who read and stay quiet. There will also be many who visit and decide this forum is not for them.

Of course one could argue that all of us who stick around have something in common so it's worth exploring this particular subset of AFers to see what pops up but I'm betting posters to this forum represent a tiny minority of all the people who read this forum.

Sorry to bang on about statistical bias again - I seem to be obsessive about a branch of mathematics I really don't enjoy ;~)
--
James D

In this case I don't see any reason to worry about whether such a connection were only valid for this local crowd of a-fibbers, or even just a subset of the local crowd. If the connection possibly exists for an identifiable group then the published research into diet and supplements, useful for those with autistic/ausbergers and related disorders, might be useful to this identified group of a-fibbers.

Wil,

Years ago, I referred a number of friends to my meditation instructor. He & I had lunch sometime later and he asked me, "do you have ANY friends who aren't intense?" Most of my friends are in the relatively high performance category, both intellectually and physically. However they do not exhibit the social interaction and communication deficits that are stereotypical of the autism/aspersers spectrum.

I attended engineering school in undergraduate and PhD studies (I never completed a dissertation so don't have a PhD) and business school for a masters. I can attest that the social interaction and communication deficits were fairly common among attendees of engineering school, much less so at b school.

All this being said, I would tend to agree with James that if there is a commonality here it is that the posters, as a group have a focus and drive to do something about their problem. This distinguishes them from those who just accept the standard medical protocols. In other words it distinguishes afibbers who seek out information from those who don't, not afibbers from non-afibbers.

George

I agree with George. I think the people you see on this board tend to be those who are hungry for information, interested in research (as there is a personal motivation in this case), and driven to find answers - all which could come across as obsessive in that we are determined to find ways to improve our situations. I do feel a little obsessive sometimes as I'm on this board almost every night, like many others. However, outside of this, there really isn't anything else others would find obsessive about me. Not fastidious either

What we DO all seem to have in common is that we are "DRIVEN". And unwilling to accept "just live with it" or "just do what the doctor says" as the answer for us.

Barb

Wil -
Here’s a biased opinion not based on science.

I know and have known at least couple dozen people (probably more) that I would consider to have OCD (but not Aspbergers) and none of them have afib so I discount the connection.

I’m still backing the gene flaw theory of Snips -- "single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) -- which are tiny flaws in the genetic code that can subtly affect the cascade of processes to make and repair the body's tissues."

In the case of afib, I’ve always felt that it’s something like a deficiency or inability to absorb critical nutrients that prevents the proper functioning of nerve cells affecting heart function and allows cells to degenerate more quickly. The malfunctions can be accelerated by degres of environmental influences such as food, chemicals, additives, toxic metals in air, water and food etc.

Personally, I'm versatile. I can be extremely intense and driven and at other times, very laid back. But I do have the ability to be highly organized and disciplined depending on the needs at the time or the task at hand.
I am a tough task master. I have friends, mostly like George, who are intense or a better word would be, passionate, about convictions, but they all know how to 'take a break' and hang loose. Those who are too intense all of the time aren't typically my choice of company, but I do prefer those who are savvy, focused and who have practical knowledge. I find that higher education does not necessarily guarantee that as I have observed from several of my long-time PhD friends.

Jackie

I think Jackie has written my profile at this stage of my life. If I am focused on something I am very intense, but I can also be very laid back if it is called for.

I will say that I have not always been that way, I have been very intense about life in general. I did have what would probably be called a self-obsession, in that I always felt I had to please everyone. I didn't want anyone feeling bad toward me. I would always set up a defense system and obsess with trying to figure out how to keep people in my life happy. I was very intense with it and it caused me many problems. I have overcome the obession part of that, but still have to fight the feeling of always trying to please. I have learned in my later years that I don't have to please everyone and I don't obsess about it anymore. Some people cannot be pleased.

Whew! Thanks Wil, I feel better getting that off my chest. I imagine that if many of us if we looked deep within we would all find some obsession or intensity that we have had to deal with. I think stress is a definate trigger and this kind of behavior over a period of many years could certainly directly effect a persons health and possibly ultimately their heart.

Wil, hope I am not too far off with what you are talking about. If so, just disregard. There I go again...trying to please people...smile. Sharon

Hi Wil,

I never thought about myself being obsessive etc, etc. until AF came along and I found myself hunting down the answer to it all like tracking a wounded animal. I was in AF mentally 24/7 and started seeing a person in myself that I never really noticed before although I guess I always knew that part character was there in the background. This obsessiveness is probably the reason my AF deteriated so rapidly from when I was first diagnosed.

Another point is that I was brought up by a very dominant father ( but very fair) who demanded absolute honesty, respect, social correctness etc. etc, I would add this was not any religeous thing. I suspect that all this conditioning made me obsessive of doing right, fighting whatever until totally beaten, always on time etc,etc,etc.
I think it was GeorgeN who wrote something along the lines of 'life is one long conversation with oneself'. In my case it my case it may have been one long argument with the internal conflict against always having to come up to standard.

It made me a winner though!!!!
Barry

Peggy,

Thanks! I learn something every day. I never knew about ODD.

George

Look up mbti and find out your personality type
there are 16 to chose from based on carl jungs theorys
it would be interesting to see if there is any relationship
or not . Im an intp.Angus

Toni,

I thought the section on "How to give Epsom salts" in your reference to be very applicable to us here. I'm guessing that mag chloride could be substituted (or mixed) with the MgSO4, also.

George
====================================================
Here are several methods for giving Epsom salts. The ratio is not exact, just what seems to get the salts dissolved and on the skin.

Epsom salt baths – Most people use about one to two cups per tub. Dissolve the salts in hot water first and then fill the tub to about waist deep, as warm as possible. The amount of salts you may find works best will depend on the individual tolerance, the temperature of the water, and the size of the tub. The warmer the water and larger the tub, the more salts will dissolve. If you see negative reactions, such as irritability or hyperactivity, then decrease the amount of salts. You may need to start with as little as one tablespoon of salts, and work up gradually. Epsom salts baths are very calming for most people. This works well just before bedtime. Most guides say to soak for about 20 minutes or more. It is okay to let the salts dry on the skin. You may notice a dry clear-white powder. If it is too itchy or irritating, just rinse it off. If the skin feels too dry, use lotion or oils to moisturize. Diarrhea or loose stools may result if children drink the bath water.

Spray – Mix one part salts and one part water (add more water if the salts are not dissolved) and put in a spray-squirt bottle. Mist the person’s chest and/or back and let it dry on the skin. This method works well in the summer.

Footbath – Mix one part salts to two parts water (or more so the salts dissolve) and let the person soak their feet in it. My boys would soak their feet about 30 minutes while they did reading or homework.

Homemade lotion – This is my favorite at the moment. Cheap and easy.

Recipe 1 from Karen D: Heat some Epsom salts with a little water to dissolve them. I put about one teaspoon of water in three tablespoons of salts and microwave for a minute or so. Add more water if necessary. Then mix this into around four ounces of any lotion or cream you like. I have used suntan lotion, handcream, cocoa butter, body lotion, aloe vera cream, whatever I find that is on sale or inexpensive without the chemicals I am trying to avoid. This seems to work better if the cream or lotion is water-based rather than oil-based. Good buys are at the local grocer in the lotion section. Apply to skin anywhere as often as desired. Some new commercially prepared Epsom salt creams are available but can be very expensive and may contain chemicals that are not tolerated.

Recipe 2 from Rubby: Well – my recipe for the Epsom salt cream is quite unscientific. I don't really measure my ingredients – I just add a bit of everything until I have the consistency I like.

Ingredients:
Hot water – approximately 50ml
Epsom Salt – approximately 4-5 tablespoonfuls (I keep on adding the salt to the water for as long as it dissolves – usually 5 tblsp)
White Petroleum Jelly – 5-6 tblsp (or more ??)
Natural Cocoa Butter Cream – 2-3 tblsp

I start by adding the salt into the hot water and boiling it for a few minures (make sure the salt is dissolved), then I add the Petroleum jelly and mix it all with a hand mixer (one you would use to whipp cream); once I get a white, creamy mixture, I add some cocoa butter cream and mix again.And that's it. I get approximately 250 – 350 ml cream. I use it only once a day, on days when we don't do a bath. I use it to massage my daughter's back, her chest and her legs (with a focus on her feet – she loves it). Somethimes, I add in a few drops of Lavander Oil.

The cost – minimal. I buy my local pharmacy brand (in Toronto – Shoppers Drug Mart – "Life") Petroleum Jelly (500 gr.) $3 (CAD), Coca Butter Cream (400 ml) $3 and Epsom Salt (1kg) $3.5 (CAD). I think that the two creams I use will make at least 3 Epsom salt mixtures, which means that my cream costs me approximately $2-3 (CAD). And it lasts me a long time – even though I try to put on my daughter as much as possible.

Epsom salt oil – Neither of my sons nor I liked the salty film left on the skin after a bath (felt itchy). I mixed some coconut oil in with the salts and water. Actually, it is more oil than water. Three tablespoons water plus four tablespoons salts plus 12 tablespoons coconut oil. The coconut oil is good for the skin anyway and it seems to counter the drying effect of the salts. I found that just mixing the salts and oil did not dissolve the salts, so I needed to add some water. I apply this liberally on the skin and it soaks in plus leaves the skin smooth and soft. Adjust the quantity of salts to your liking.

Sponge – A solution of one part salts to four parts water works well. Dampen a sponge in the mixture and apply to any part of the body.

Poultice or skin patch – You can mix some Epsom salts and whatever kind of lotion the person can tolerate into a paste. Put this paste on a large bandaid and apply to the skin. The salts will soak into the skin.

Thank you, George, i want to make sure i can find this post again.

PeggyM

Ummmm...... not to obsess about it or anything.

Peggy,

Thanks for the compliment - I don't find you ODD at all.

George

Well George, you are in the minority, because i am a very odd old duck indeed.
PeggyM, laughing

I was going to post to this thread and then decided against it since I don't want to place myself in the 'Possible-Aspergers-who-post-responses-to-this thread' errr.... subset of AFrs!

On a more serious note (and caving in to my possible/likely Aspergers by posting to this thread - can't resist), I am quite obsessive with a ferocious attention to detail in most things (though impatience sometimes lets me down) and a huge determination to be best at everything - likely owing to the fact that I spent the whole of my childhood being told by my violent alchoholic adoptive father that I would never amount to anything.... And I'm so proud to have poved him utterly wrong because, like Barry, I AM A WINNER!

Mike F. (BSc Hons (first), MSc, PhD - all as a 'mature' student - had to leave school at 16)

An offering which might be of value to the above posters, it has been of great value to me, and a lot of fun:
I recently learned a new word - zetetic - it was in a book on the flat earth society and why there is/was so much strife on that subject.

Zetetic science compared to revealed science has been profitable to this obsessively ferocious nit-picking learner.

William

Well, I see the marriage of aerobic exercise and obsessive disorder is still robust and true in the eyes, hearts, and minds of perceptive souls. From my own study, observations, and experience of this intimate connection, I see the union as a rare phenomenon in the world of athletics, actually a restless cohabitation but given sacred status. As I see it, the obsession in this context is more wedded to physical inactivity, the avoidance of aerobic fitness as a lifestyle condition. I would submit that exercise, particularly running, and the passion for exercise (running) is unequivoical natural. Bernard Heinrich, a biologist and a runner, believes humans still have the instinct for the "communal chase." There's enough biological evidence out there showing that endurance exercise evolved brilliantly in humans, as both a physical and mental phenomenon.
Innumerable studies have also concluded that exercise has a myriad of health benefits, both somatic and psychological, and is being utilized, probably too infrequently, as a strategy for mental health discorders, such as clinical depression, schizophrenia, and, lo and behold, obsessive compulsive disorder. A recent study in the Journal of Nevous & Mental Disease (2007) found that exercise intervention produced a beneficial effect on the reduction in OCD symptom severity. Perhaps, we should start putting the horse back before the cart.
Apropos atrial fibrillation (vagal), just consider the many triggers that are we have discussed here -- stress, anxiety, errant sugar levels, complusiveness (?). Perhaps appropriate exercise might be a ripe blessing to many. "Everyone is an athlete," George Sheehan once wrote. "The only difference is that some of us are in training and some are not." He also wrote, "The obsession with running is really an obsession with the potential for more and more life." By "life" he meant something more than longevity.

Mark,

There is nothing wrong with aerobic exercise, and obviously most of the population gets far too little of it. However, chronic exercise is associated with a much higher probability of ending up in LAF. Even so, most chronic exercisers don't have afib. For those who do, exercise taken to the extreme is no longer health giving, but seemingly contributes to the problem (this may be due to genetics or whatever). This is coming from someone who has been chronically fit his whole life and is still active. In my opinion, some form of moderation would be a better path for an LAFer, but to each his own.

George

To: Wil Schuemann,

In your general analysis under this heading Wil, you seem to have progressed from speculation as to whether there is a sub -set of OCD/ Athletic LAFers, to mentioning on July !5th, "this identified group of a-fibbers." But all that had happened in the interim, was that a number of conjectures were put forward, without there being any discernable concensus.

I would however draw your attention to what I have noticed as I have perused this site trying both to help myself and in the spirit of the site, to be of assistance to others (in sofar as I am able); and that is, the same names appearing on separate and unrelated posts, time and again - yours, being amongst them.

Have you considered at all whether or not there may be an element of OCD in people who are prolific authors on a medical site? - the manifestation perhaps, of a sort of 'Munchausen's Syndrome by proxy' as it were ?

Here are some statistics to perhaps assist in any evaluation:

Postings on this ab-fibbers site by authors below, over the last 180 days:

Jackie 1041
Sharon Glass 438
PeggyM 392
GeorgeN 391
Kate 285
William 230
Joyce 160
Wil Schuemann 125

Dudley,

Have you considered the possibility that frequent posters are genuinely trying to help their fellow afibbers rather than being obsessive, neurotic or whatever other characteristics you ascribe to them? There actually is such a thing as compassion and that along with great knowledge about lone atrial fibrillation is what "powers" this board. If you find that offensive or it is greatly troubling you perhaps you should find another board.

Also, from one of your previous posts it seems that you are of the opinion that you can achieve an INR between 2 and 3 through diet. That simply is not possible and furthermore, despite what your health care provider may have told you there is no evidence whatsoever that LONE afibbers have an increased risk of stroke.

Hans