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METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too
Posted by Hans
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Hans
METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 06:51AM |
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Fran
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 07:08AM |
Richard
It makes sense. However, a while back on an orthomolecular site I was conversing with one of the Dr's on the board. He seemed to think I overmethylated. There was a site I remember which gave the symptoms of under and over methylation. Over methylation certainly fitted my symptoms.
Now maybe, just maybe - as you tend to lean to adrenergic and I too vagal - undermethylation = adrenal and over methylation = vagal.
Maybe a long shot but I think not
Fran
It makes sense. However, a while back on an orthomolecular site I was conversing with one of the Dr's on the board. He seemed to think I overmethylated. There was a site I remember which gave the symptoms of under and over methylation. Over methylation certainly fitted my symptoms.
Now maybe, just maybe - as you tend to lean to adrenergic and I too vagal - undermethylation = adrenal and over methylation = vagal.
Maybe a long shot but I think not
Fran
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Richard
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 07:40AM |
Fran,
In case you didn't read, this article speaks of over methylation, as well. That's a good point, about under and over. I still think somehow, that molybdenum plays a part in your genetics. I would have to further say, that I would have to guess you are an under methylator because of your smoking. That depletes enormous amounts of sulfur aminos and Vit C, and B's. Even though you have a grasp on your AF through diet, damage is still being done, and excessive stores of sulfur are being used up. Why do you suppose the doctor thought you were an over methylator?
Richard
In case you didn't read, this article speaks of over methylation, as well. That's a good point, about under and over. I still think somehow, that molybdenum plays a part in your genetics. I would have to further say, that I would have to guess you are an under methylator because of your smoking. That depletes enormous amounts of sulfur aminos and Vit C, and B's. Even though you have a grasp on your AF through diet, damage is still being done, and excessive stores of sulfur are being used up. Why do you suppose the doctor thought you were an over methylator?
Richard
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Richard
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 07:44AM |
I pulled this from the archives 2/11/03, that Erling wrote, using the word "methylation".
Hi Jackie, and Lorraine,
Jackie, your comments are always to the fact-filled point, and they are very much appreciated. In an earlier post you said that "DNA irregularities definitely influence membrane ion channels and pumps," and that in Metagenics seminars "they emphasize the major influence that nutritional factors have on healthy gene expression, protein synthesis and metabolism with their goal being the achievement of optimal genetic expression."
Your statements bring up the subject of adequate "methylation" to limit DNA mutations and enhance gene expression. This might be of great interest to you, Lorraine, since you had said "I would like to know what I can do to improve the functioning of my calcium ion pump which I'm assuming may be faulty because my intracellular calcium level is 5.5 which is above the range upper limit of 5.0." Craig Cooney, PhD biochemistry, UC Davis, has become a leading researcher and writer on the subject of methyl metabolism. His book Methyl Magic (1999) is written in a laypersons style, very easy to read and understand. He writes, "Methylation... it starts at the moment of conception (even before, actually) and continues, billions of time every second, until the day we die... methylation is a vital key to how we feel - physically, mentally, and emotionally. Lets put it as simply as possible: Methylation helps give life, and it can take it away. In fact, without methylation there would be no life at all. So what is methylation? Technically it starts with the small parts of molecules called methyl groups. A methyl group is a carbon atom with three hydrogen atoms attached to it. Any other molecule that adds this methyl group, whether it be a molecule of DNA or a protein molecule - any of the body's enormous inventory of molecules - is considered methylated. Methylation is so crucial a part of our body's machinery that it has a name of its own: methyl metabolism. Methyl metabolism refers to the making of methyl groups and their passing from one molecule to another. Methylation happens in everything that's alive - sponges, birds, bees, chimps, mice, and humans. As we said, without methylation there is no life - period. Methylation helps regulate the switching on and off of genes (technically this is known as gene expression) - one of the most crucial regulators of health and life itself. When gene expression goes awry the results can be horrifying: birth defects, cancer, and maybe even autoimmune diseases such as lupus. When other aspects of methyl metabolism go awry the downside can be equally terrible: heart disease, mental retardation, and diseases of the nervous system, among others."
(it will not surprise me at all to someday learn that derangements of the complex structures of ion pumps and channels (proteins) from lack of adequate methylation can bring about cardiac arrhythmias)
"Among the most important of methylation's many functions is the maintenance and protection of DNA, the basic stuff of heredity and of life itself. Adding methyl groups to DNA is enormously important in maintaining healthy cells. Many other proteins need periodic repair, and methylation is essential for this crucial repair work. Methylation, to put it in a nutshell, is vital to the healthy functioning of all our body's calls. Why? Because it makes the membranes that surround each of our cells more fluid. This in turn allows better regulation of life sustaining minerals like sodium and potassium into and out of our cells, so that a healthy balance of these minerals is maintained. In most people the fluidity of cell membranes decreases with age, and this loss of fluidity may be one of the features that defines aging itself."
"Obviously methylation is a key player in giving us life, keeping us healthy, and perhaps enabling us to live longer, more vital lives. Scientists have known this for quite some time, but I still find it amazing that there's been so little discussion of methylation in the popular press and in the media. It's a shame, and we scientists bear much of the responsibility for not making the public aware of what we know."
So this subject is the closest thing that I've come across to a real way of protecting, perhaps rebuilding, faulty ion pumps and channels (proteins all), and membranes (the fluidity of which is also enhanced with good fats such as DHA and EPA fish oils, and the elimination of bad fats such as hydrogenated oils and
many plant oils). The book goes on to explain that the way to determine if ones methyl metabolism is adequate for repair and maintenance is with a determination of homocysteine (HCY) levels in the blood, a routine and quite inexpensive test (the recommended upper limit is 7 micromoles per liter of blood -- above that lie all sorts of health problems). And if ones HCY level is too high, the book lays out the methyl metabolism enhancing supplements that are needed and the recommended doses: trimethylglycine (TMG), choline, inositol, folic acid, vitamins B6, B12, and E, zinc, selenium, fish oils.
The following are highly recommended reading:
Book, Methyl Magic by Craig Cooney, ISBN 0-8362-3585-1
Article, [www.lef.org]
Article, [www.lef.org]
Article, [www.lef.org] (this article shows the desirable HCY level)
Hi Jackie, and Lorraine,
Jackie, your comments are always to the fact-filled point, and they are very much appreciated. In an earlier post you said that "DNA irregularities definitely influence membrane ion channels and pumps," and that in Metagenics seminars "they emphasize the major influence that nutritional factors have on healthy gene expression, protein synthesis and metabolism with their goal being the achievement of optimal genetic expression."
Your statements bring up the subject of adequate "methylation" to limit DNA mutations and enhance gene expression. This might be of great interest to you, Lorraine, since you had said "I would like to know what I can do to improve the functioning of my calcium ion pump which I'm assuming may be faulty because my intracellular calcium level is 5.5 which is above the range upper limit of 5.0." Craig Cooney, PhD biochemistry, UC Davis, has become a leading researcher and writer on the subject of methyl metabolism. His book Methyl Magic (1999) is written in a laypersons style, very easy to read and understand. He writes, "Methylation... it starts at the moment of conception (even before, actually) and continues, billions of time every second, until the day we die... methylation is a vital key to how we feel - physically, mentally, and emotionally. Lets put it as simply as possible: Methylation helps give life, and it can take it away. In fact, without methylation there would be no life at all. So what is methylation? Technically it starts with the small parts of molecules called methyl groups. A methyl group is a carbon atom with three hydrogen atoms attached to it. Any other molecule that adds this methyl group, whether it be a molecule of DNA or a protein molecule - any of the body's enormous inventory of molecules - is considered methylated. Methylation is so crucial a part of our body's machinery that it has a name of its own: methyl metabolism. Methyl metabolism refers to the making of methyl groups and their passing from one molecule to another. Methylation happens in everything that's alive - sponges, birds, bees, chimps, mice, and humans. As we said, without methylation there is no life - period. Methylation helps regulate the switching on and off of genes (technically this is known as gene expression) - one of the most crucial regulators of health and life itself. When gene expression goes awry the results can be horrifying: birth defects, cancer, and maybe even autoimmune diseases such as lupus. When other aspects of methyl metabolism go awry the downside can be equally terrible: heart disease, mental retardation, and diseases of the nervous system, among others."
(it will not surprise me at all to someday learn that derangements of the complex structures of ion pumps and channels (proteins) from lack of adequate methylation can bring about cardiac arrhythmias)
"Among the most important of methylation's many functions is the maintenance and protection of DNA, the basic stuff of heredity and of life itself. Adding methyl groups to DNA is enormously important in maintaining healthy cells. Many other proteins need periodic repair, and methylation is essential for this crucial repair work. Methylation, to put it in a nutshell, is vital to the healthy functioning of all our body's calls. Why? Because it makes the membranes that surround each of our cells more fluid. This in turn allows better regulation of life sustaining minerals like sodium and potassium into and out of our cells, so that a healthy balance of these minerals is maintained. In most people the fluidity of cell membranes decreases with age, and this loss of fluidity may be one of the features that defines aging itself."
"Obviously methylation is a key player in giving us life, keeping us healthy, and perhaps enabling us to live longer, more vital lives. Scientists have known this for quite some time, but I still find it amazing that there's been so little discussion of methylation in the popular press and in the media. It's a shame, and we scientists bear much of the responsibility for not making the public aware of what we know."
So this subject is the closest thing that I've come across to a real way of protecting, perhaps rebuilding, faulty ion pumps and channels (proteins all), and membranes (the fluidity of which is also enhanced with good fats such as DHA and EPA fish oils, and the elimination of bad fats such as hydrogenated oils and
many plant oils). The book goes on to explain that the way to determine if ones methyl metabolism is adequate for repair and maintenance is with a determination of homocysteine (HCY) levels in the blood, a routine and quite inexpensive test (the recommended upper limit is 7 micromoles per liter of blood -- above that lie all sorts of health problems). And if ones HCY level is too high, the book lays out the methyl metabolism enhancing supplements that are needed and the recommended doses: trimethylglycine (TMG), choline, inositol, folic acid, vitamins B6, B12, and E, zinc, selenium, fish oils.
The following are highly recommended reading:
Book, Methyl Magic by Craig Cooney, ISBN 0-8362-3585-1
Article, [www.lef.org]
Article, [www.lef.org]
Article, [www.lef.org] (this article shows the desirable HCY level)
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Fran
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 08:25AM |
Because of the symptoms Richard.
[www.alternativementalhealth.com]
Conditions associated with undermethylation: Anorexia, Bulemia, shopping/gambling disorders, depression, schizo-affective disorder, delusions, oppositional-defiant disorder, OCD.
Conditions associated with overmethylation: Anxiety/Panic disorders, anxious depression, hyperactivity, learning disabilities, low motivation, "space cadet" syndrome, paranoid schizophrenia, hallucinations. (Oct 3, 2003)
A. Undermethylation: This condition is innate & is characterized by low levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, high whole blood histamine and elevated absolute basophils. This population has a high incidence of seasonal allergies, OCD tendencies, perfectionism, high libido, sparse body hair, and several other characteristics. They usually respond well to methionine, SAMe, calcium, magnesium, omega-3 essential oils (DHA & EPA), B-6, inositol, and vitamins A, C, and E. They should avoid supplements containing folic acid. In severe cases involving psychosis, the dominant symptom is usually delusional thinking rather than hallucinations. They tend to speak very little & may sit motionless for extended periods. They may appear outwardly calm, but suffer from extreme internal anxiety.
B. Overmethylation: This condition is the biochemical opposite of undermethylation. It is characterized by elevated levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, low whole blood histamine, and low absolute basophils. This population is characterized by the following typical symptoms: Absence of seasonal, inhalent allergies, but a multitude of chemical or food sensitivities, high anxiety which is evident to all, low libido, obsessions but not compulsions, tendency for paranoia and auditory hallucinations, underachievement as a child, heavy body hair, hyperactivity, "nervous" legs, and grandiosity. They usually respond well to folic acid, B-12, niacinamide, DMAE, choline, manganese, zinc, omega-3 essential oils (DHA and EPA) and vitamins C and E, but should avoid supplements of methionine, SAMe, inositol, TMG and DMG
I know we have discussed the fact that I have always maintained I had high seratonin levels etc and never considered myself depressed. Perhaps my smoking (very little now) keeps the methylation rate down and is a reason why I find it difficult to stop that final few. Interesting about undermethylators being told to avoid folic acid.
Fran - who has no libido, boundless energy, no seasonal allergies but lots of food sensitivities, and with AF had to work on anxiety levels, paranoia and had to keep on top of keeping my legs still, not to mention dyslexia, ADD etc etc. Have to say that I don't have the body hair though.... and the voices - well I have an inner voice I always listen too - I call it my conscience.
[www.alternativementalhealth.com]
Conditions associated with undermethylation: Anorexia, Bulemia, shopping/gambling disorders, depression, schizo-affective disorder, delusions, oppositional-defiant disorder, OCD.
Conditions associated with overmethylation: Anxiety/Panic disorders, anxious depression, hyperactivity, learning disabilities, low motivation, "space cadet" syndrome, paranoid schizophrenia, hallucinations. (Oct 3, 2003)
A. Undermethylation: This condition is innate & is characterized by low levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, high whole blood histamine and elevated absolute basophils. This population has a high incidence of seasonal allergies, OCD tendencies, perfectionism, high libido, sparse body hair, and several other characteristics. They usually respond well to methionine, SAMe, calcium, magnesium, omega-3 essential oils (DHA & EPA), B-6, inositol, and vitamins A, C, and E. They should avoid supplements containing folic acid. In severe cases involving psychosis, the dominant symptom is usually delusional thinking rather than hallucinations. They tend to speak very little & may sit motionless for extended periods. They may appear outwardly calm, but suffer from extreme internal anxiety.
B. Overmethylation: This condition is the biochemical opposite of undermethylation. It is characterized by elevated levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine, low whole blood histamine, and low absolute basophils. This population is characterized by the following typical symptoms: Absence of seasonal, inhalent allergies, but a multitude of chemical or food sensitivities, high anxiety which is evident to all, low libido, obsessions but not compulsions, tendency for paranoia and auditory hallucinations, underachievement as a child, heavy body hair, hyperactivity, "nervous" legs, and grandiosity. They usually respond well to folic acid, B-12, niacinamide, DMAE, choline, manganese, zinc, omega-3 essential oils (DHA and EPA) and vitamins C and E, but should avoid supplements of methionine, SAMe, inositol, TMG and DMG
I know we have discussed the fact that I have always maintained I had high seratonin levels etc and never considered myself depressed. Perhaps my smoking (very little now) keeps the methylation rate down and is a reason why I find it difficult to stop that final few. Interesting about undermethylators being told to avoid folic acid.
Fran - who has no libido, boundless energy, no seasonal allergies but lots of food sensitivities, and with AF had to work on anxiety levels, paranoia and had to keep on top of keeping my legs still, not to mention dyslexia, ADD etc etc. Have to say that I don't have the body hair though.... and the voices - well I have an inner voice I always listen too - I call it my conscience.
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susan
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 08:33AM |
Don't you ever get tired of obsessing over these biochemical
details that probably have no bearing on afib or otherwise.
I have been reading endless long winded posts about amino acids,
glutamate, etc. etc. for a year now and it is getting rather tiresome.
haven't you been able in all of this time to come to a conclusion as to whether or not all of this stuff means anything? I think not. Seems
like a lot of wasted energy at this point.
details that probably have no bearing on afib or otherwise.
I have been reading endless long winded posts about amino acids,
glutamate, etc. etc. for a year now and it is getting rather tiresome.
haven't you been able in all of this time to come to a conclusion as to whether or not all of this stuff means anything? I think not. Seems
like a lot of wasted energy at this point.
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Fran
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 08:45AM |
Susan
Glutamate definately has a bearing on AF - but some people are just not ready to hear it, or don't want to heat it. Infact it took Richard the best part of a year before it clicked with him.
And as Lone AF is a disorder that has no known underlying disorder, perhaps you can venture a guess as to what might be wrong. We know that all bodies work at a cellular level so getting down to brass tacks and finding what the right level of chemicals in the cells should be seems a very good place to start by me.
You won't find a cure for AF by moaning about what others have done to get rid or decrease the episodes of AF. Did you want a cure? Or perhaps you only want to hear more about pills and ablation.
Fran
Glutamate definately has a bearing on AF - but some people are just not ready to hear it, or don't want to heat it. Infact it took Richard the best part of a year before it clicked with him.
And as Lone AF is a disorder that has no known underlying disorder, perhaps you can venture a guess as to what might be wrong. We know that all bodies work at a cellular level so getting down to brass tacks and finding what the right level of chemicals in the cells should be seems a very good place to start by me.
You won't find a cure for AF by moaning about what others have done to get rid or decrease the episodes of AF. Did you want a cure? Or perhaps you only want to hear more about pills and ablation.
Fran
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Richard
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 08:53AM |
Susan,
What does interest you and what do you think would help arrhythmias? What would you prefer I study? What do you believe makes the body operate? What do you think pharmaceutical companies do, when manufacturing a drug? They don't just snap their fingers, and it suddenly appears. What do you think doctors do for 10 yrs. while going to school? Twiddle their fingers. I know it took me 6 yrs to get my chemistry and physics degree, and I had to study things I didn't particularly like.
Frankly, I'm tired of ignorant people like you who have no desire to understand anything, or think it even pertains. Maybe its merely your lack of intelligence to grasp the information. Whatever it is, maybe you should just skip over my posts, and keep you rude remarks to yourself. The pharmaceutical companies are banking on your kind.
Richard
What does interest you and what do you think would help arrhythmias? What would you prefer I study? What do you believe makes the body operate? What do you think pharmaceutical companies do, when manufacturing a drug? They don't just snap their fingers, and it suddenly appears. What do you think doctors do for 10 yrs. while going to school? Twiddle their fingers. I know it took me 6 yrs to get my chemistry and physics degree, and I had to study things I didn't particularly like.
Frankly, I'm tired of ignorant people like you who have no desire to understand anything, or think it even pertains. Maybe its merely your lack of intelligence to grasp the information. Whatever it is, maybe you should just skip over my posts, and keep you rude remarks to yourself. The pharmaceutical companies are banking on your kind.
Richard
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Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 09:17AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 18,881 |
Susan - No, we never tire of searching for the truth.... and helping others. If you don't have the passion for it, I'm sure it seems boring.
If the answer was found in a quick fix; there would be no need for this forum.
But, since there is no quick fix, those of us who are interested in regaining health the natural way, that is, restoring what is out of balance, actually enjoy the research and we enjoy the support we gain from each person's efforts.
Knowledge is power. Our bodies are our responsibility. Years back, I thought I was doing the right thing by turning my body and my health over to the medical people whom I thought knew all the answers and would protect me from harm. I ended up injured by two unnecessary surgeries. I vowed then that I would learn all I could and think for myself so I would never be injured out of ignorance or blind faith again.
I am sorry that you don't find the topics easy to read without having to think. My experience has been that anything worthwhile knowing takes considerable dedication to learning. Some of us like to learn and grow; others are bored by the learning process. Life is about choices.
Not to be unkind, but when you see a topic that doesn't interest you, please just pass it by. Negative thoughts and comments just bring bad Karma to this forum...and we don't need any of that.
I'm sorry you feel compelled to judge. You know, the person who judges doesn't define the other person. They just define who they are, themselves.... as person who needs to judge others.
So please, refrain....
Jackie
If the answer was found in a quick fix; there would be no need for this forum.
But, since there is no quick fix, those of us who are interested in regaining health the natural way, that is, restoring what is out of balance, actually enjoy the research and we enjoy the support we gain from each person's efforts.
Knowledge is power. Our bodies are our responsibility. Years back, I thought I was doing the right thing by turning my body and my health over to the medical people whom I thought knew all the answers and would protect me from harm. I ended up injured by two unnecessary surgeries. I vowed then that I would learn all I could and think for myself so I would never be injured out of ignorance or blind faith again.
I am sorry that you don't find the topics easy to read without having to think. My experience has been that anything worthwhile knowing takes considerable dedication to learning. Some of us like to learn and grow; others are bored by the learning process. Life is about choices.
Not to be unkind, but when you see a topic that doesn't interest you, please just pass it by. Negative thoughts and comments just bring bad Karma to this forum...and we don't need any of that.
I'm sorry you feel compelled to judge. You know, the person who judges doesn't define the other person. They just define who they are, themselves.... as person who needs to judge others.
So please, refrain....
Jackie
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Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 09:26AM |
Registered: 6 years ago Posts: 18,881 |
Richard....ho ho ho, yourself! You are challenging me to rethink some of the reasons why I take MSM.... I'll be re-reading Methyl Magic soon and will seriously evaluate what you've said - especially about the MO stores.
You could be on to something here. (in my case) ..although, I have to tell you that for about 2 months, I haven't taken the MSM and I'm feeling some fibromyalgic symptoms - but this could be from other sources.
Thanks for the heads up...and thanks for pulling up the past post by Erling. He was the one that turned me on to methylation.
This is were it's "at." Very important. We are all just a bunch of biochemical reactions.... and the methylation process is crucial.
Thanks for revving up the topic again.
Jackie
Oh - forgot to mention, I was put on SAMe a while back but haven't been tested recently. That will be coming up after I get my all clear from the ablation procedure. Then we will begin again fine-tuning whatever else is left to tune.
You could be on to something here. (in my case) ..although, I have to tell you that for about 2 months, I haven't taken the MSM and I'm feeling some fibromyalgic symptoms - but this could be from other sources.
Thanks for the heads up...and thanks for pulling up the past post by Erling. He was the one that turned me on to methylation.
This is were it's "at." Very important. We are all just a bunch of biochemical reactions.... and the methylation process is crucial.
Thanks for revving up the topic again.
Jackie
Oh - forgot to mention, I was put on SAMe a while back but haven't been tested recently. That will be coming up after I get my all clear from the ablation procedure. Then we will begin again fine-tuning whatever else is left to tune.
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Richard
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 19, 2003 09:47AM |
Thank you, Jackie for prompting my thinking in this direction. It's quite interesting, and I agree, VERY important. Thank you, as well, for the eloquent post to Susan. I got my feathers up this time, as these rude comments have been coming more frequently, and I don't have the patience for it anylonger. Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. OK, now I'm better.
Richard
Richard
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Glenn Camp
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 21, 2003 06:20AM |
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Hans Larsen
Re: METHYLATION - PLS. Read, don't skip or skim over - it's easy, too December 21, 2003 06:30AM |
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